Sojourner at the Gate

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Soj
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Sojourner at the Gate

Postby Soj » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:51 pm

Hi!

I name myself Soj.

I feel I have come near the Gate. I am looking for someone to help me through.

Soj

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csm
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Re: Sojourner at the Gate

Postby csm » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:55 pm

Welcome Soj!

I can guide you.

Can you please confirm you have read our disclaimer at:
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

There are a few ground rules, please respond to confirm:

1. You agree to post at least once a day. What's needed is focus and intensity.
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to.
3. Responses require your utmost honesty. Be 100% honest. It is very easy to deceive oneself, especially when it comes to something as subtle as the intimacy of your direct experience. Strive to be completely honest and transparent as to what is actually happening in your experience, this will make the process as smooth as possible.
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Write from direct experience, not speculation. It is impossible to understate the importance of this; in order for any Direct Pointing session to be successful, it is your responsibility to examine your experience as it is, instead of resorting to speculation and theory-forming. The only way to get to the Gate and beyond is by directly looking at your actual experience of reality.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Love, Sage

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Soj
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Re: Sojourner at the Gate

Postby Soj » Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:16 pm

Sage, I am ready to go.

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csm
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Re: Sojourner at the Gate

Postby csm » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:09 pm

Great!

What does it mean to you to be "near the Gate"? What is your current experience and understanding of self? What do you feel is missing?

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Soj
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Re: Sojourner at the Gate

Postby Soj » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:18 am

"Near the Gate" means that through my observations I can see that what I really am is not the body, is not the thought, is not the feeling, is not the emotion. I can just be "behind" and observe all of these.

Yet there is a feeling that this is somehow "local" and incomplete. Not being one with everything. Not realizing fully.

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csm
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Re: Sojourner at the Gate

Postby csm » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:44 pm

Great start! Soon I'll be asking you to dig a little deeper into that feeling. First though, let's look at your expectations for this process.

Expectations can be a tremendous obstacle to seeing through the illusion, so it's important to get them all out in the open.

What do you expect will happen, want to happen, hope will happen as a result of seeing through the illusion that you are or have a separate entity "self"?
What conditions do you place on Liberation? How will you know it has happened?

It's important to be very thorough and 100% honest with these questions. Please take some time to really rake through your answers before you write them down.

Love, Sage

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Soj
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Re: Sojourner at the Gate

Postby Soj » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:07 pm

Dear, Sage.

I do not really know what will happen. I guess there will be some kind of deep experiential knowing of the truth. All doubts like "Is that it?" will be shattered. And after liberation life will continue with its ups and downs but my perspective will be different from today's. I will see life like a flow and will not take it so personally.

Thanks, Soj.

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csm
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Re: Sojourner at the Gate

Postby csm » Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:10 pm

Hi Soj,

For the most part I think those conditions are likely to occur, though they may not present as a sudden shift. Many people need time to settle into the insight before they start noticing profound results.

However, the things you describe might not happen the way you imagine, or feel the way you imagine.

For example, what would experiential knowing feel like? Do you have an example from your experience? We usually think of "knowing" as being of the mind, an understanding. What experience - what sensation, what feeling - could be a "knowing"? What signal would your body send you to tell you that you "knew" the truth?

Or what would it mean for all doubts to be shattered? Does that mean that a thought such as "Is that it?" will never again arise? Thoughts arise, that's what they do. And you have X years of conditioning and habits that won't change overnight. So when that thought arises, is it a doubt, or is it just a thought? How will you know the difference?

An important part of the process here is learning to untangle our habitual conceptualization of our experience from direct experience. Your expectations likely have some pretty subtle concepts invisibly woven into them. Learning to look at direct experience will help you see the truth and recognize that you've seen it :)


So, why don’t you start by telling me how you came to see that you are not your body, thoughts, feelings or emotions. Then sit quietly with the following statement and let me know what thoughts and feelings arise in response:


There is no separate you, there never was and there never will be.


Love, Sage

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Soj
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Re: Sojourner at the Gate

Postby Soj » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:01 pm

Hi, Sage!

When I say "experiential knowing" I have some kind of inner realization in mind. Not something from the book, not thought based, but realized deep inside. Oh, words :). I do not expect to get any signal from my body. And also any sensations, feelings will probably be more a side effect. But still, these are just my expectations. I am ready to let go of them.

I agree with you - doubt is just a thought. But it still has power, because I have a filling there is no full inner realization yet. The funny thing is that I as awareness can observe this doubt thought wandering around. And still I feel something needs to happen or someone with authority has to say: "Hey that's it, you've got it." Oh, words again :).

When I become still, I can see that everything is happening in a field of awareness. Thoughts come and go, feelings and emotions appear and disappear. Something observes all that. And this stays the same, I can't put a border, an age or gender to it. But it still somehow feels "local", as "my awareness".

I will contemplate on your statement in the morning and let you know.

Thank you! Soj

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csm
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Re: Sojourner at the Gate

Postby csm » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:03 pm

Hi Soj!

I’m looking forward to your reactions to the last question. In the meantime here are some more things to consider :)
When I say "experiential knowing" I have some kind of inner realization in mind. Not something from the book, not thought based, but realized deep inside. Oh, words :). I do not expect to get any signal from my body.
This is a great thing to look into! Do you have experience of this kind of realization on another topic? Is it something you’re familiar with? If so, how do you experience it? If it’s not a thought, and it’s not of the body, what is it? When you say “deep inside” where do you mean? What is it inside?
…doubt is just a thought. But it still has power…
What kind of power does it have? What can it do?
But it still somehow feels "local", as "my awareness".
What is the quality of “my”-ness in the awareness? What do you find when you go looking for its location?

When investigating these questions, do your best to stick with direct experience – seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and tactile sensations.

Love, Sage

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Soj
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Re: Sojourner at the Gate

Postby Soj » Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:45 am

Hi, Sage.

I am writing this before reading your last post. I sat down with the sentence.

Intellectually I know where it points to. But it feels somehow "dry". Like something is in an opposition, telling me that on some level there IS separate me with its roles of father, husband, sun, responsible person ... It is maybe hard to say goodbye to all those roles and images of myself. Because they are mainly not unpleasant. Or maybe I just have a concept in my mind that I have to say goodbye to them ...

Soj

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csm
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Re: Sojourner at the Gate

Postby csm » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:17 pm

Hi Soj :)

There was a lot of thinking in that last post :) Can you give it another shot, focusing on your direct experience?

Of course the arising/awareness of thoughts happens in DE, but you'll find things will really start to open up when you get better at separating the arising of the thought from the content of the thought.

Our thoughts often seem to have all the answers. It can be very useful to examine and question those thoughts. But for this inquiry we're going deeper than that too. Find that which is there before the thought pops up. Find the experience behind the conceptualization.

So for example, when you say "something is in an opposition, telling me that on some level there IS separate me" what, in precise terms referencing the five senses and awareness of arising thoughts, is your experience of that opposition? What is your experience of that claim of a self?

Love, Sage

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Soj
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Re: Sojourner at the Gate

Postby Soj » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:40 pm

Sage, hi!

Before I go on, would you be so kind and shortly describe what you mean by "focusing on direct experience".

Thanks, Soj.

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csm
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Re: Sojourner at the Gate

Postby csm » Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:23 pm

Hi Soj, of course!

Direct Experience can be defined differently for different types of inquiry, but here at LU, for the purposes of our inquiry let's define it as seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, tactile feeling, and awareness of thoughts as events. This last one is in contrast to engagement with the content of thought.

Most of us are habituated to relating to thoughts as their content. But thought contents are a big part of the illusion of self, so it's important to learn to isolate the real experience of thinking from the conceptual abstracts that thoughts point to.

What is it that makes a thought a thought? If one thought is a mental image of a unicorn and another thought is a mental vocalization of a name, what do those events have in common? What makes them both thoughts? If you mentally explore a "real" object like a mug, and then do the same with the unicorn, is there anything more real about the mug thoughts? Where did those thoughts come from? Did you choose which mug popped into your head?

Hopefully these kinds of questions help illustrate the kind of relationship to thoughts that can clarify DE.

Does that make more sense?

Love, Sage

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Soj
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Re: Sojourner at the Gate

Postby Soj » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:40 pm

Dear Sage!
There is no separate you, there never was and there never will be.
Being quite with the sentence again. I hear music coming from my headphones, I look around the room, I smell soap on my hands, I feel some sensations in my body, thoughts come and go. To whom is all this happening? On one level I would say: "To me as a body-mind person". On another level I can consciously observe all this happening, including thoughts. This tells me I am more than just a body-mind person. What now? :)

Separate you ... separate from what?

Soj


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