Ready to kill anything false

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yoshi8
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Ready to kill anything false

Postby yoshi8 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:17 pm

Hi,

I am very interested to go through this process and will be as open and honest as I can be. I understand on a mental level why the 'I' is false or at least agree with that as a statement. I believe the 'I' is generated by the left hemisphere of the brain to self-protect the biological entity we can a 'human being' and as a form of display/mating for reproduction. The thing where I need to push past on this to make it 'real' if indeed it is, is the heart. I think my sense of 'I' resides there and without touching that the 'false self' will remain a philosophical idea.

Thanks in advance for anyone who is will to be my guide on this.

Yoshi.

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Ready to kill anything false

Postby Hannah B-T » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:29 pm

Hi Yoshi (is this what you would like me to call you?).

What timezone are you in?- I am GMT+1 - UK.

I would be very happy to guide you through this process.
Firstly could you confirm you have read this post and the disclaimer here:

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... f=16&t=221

And that you agree to these 'groundrules' (you've mentioned these but just rechecking!):

1- 100% honesty- by this I mean- no censoring, no telling me what you think I want to hear, or repeating what you have heard from somewhere else.

2-That you strive to only report as closely as you can your direct experience right now when answering my questions. If you are not clear what I mean by the term 'direct experience' we will need to look at that.

3-That we both agree to post daily, unless we let each other know why that is not possible at that time.

If that's all ok- can you tell me about any expectations you have for this process- what it might be like or what things might be like afterwards, and or any fears that come up about engaging in this?
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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yoshi8
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Re: Ready to kill anything false

Postby yoshi8 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:23 am

Hi Hannah,

Many thanks to agreeing to guide me through this process. My name is Andy and happy for you to use my real name or Yoshi. My time zone is GMT+1 UK.

I confirm I have read the disclaimer and agree to the ground rules as stated.

I have read some of the Gateless Gatecrashers book but not all of it and briefly looked at the forum. I read enough for me to think there was something worth while here but wanted to go through the process without over reading others answers or experiences at this point. In terms of expectations I am trying not to have any and just allow what happens to happen but I hope I will gain some new insight and a false layer of 'untruth' will be shed. I don't have any fears about this process and again don't want to have any projected ideas of afterwards.

Thanks
Yoshi (Andy)

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Ready to kill anything false

Postby Hannah B-T » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:25 am

Thanks Andy,

It's very helpful as you've said to come at this 'fresh' with as few expectations as possible. However some may emerge or some fears may come up as we go through things, that's usual, but i encourage you to bring them straight 'to the table' as it were if they do so we can look at them together.

In that vein I would also request you hold off reading or watching videos online about spirituality etc whilst we engage with this. Any core meditation practices you have are fine to continue.

So let's dive straight in-

What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never
has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be?”

Just simply report what thoughts, feelings and sensations arise on hearing that.
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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yoshi8
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Re: Ready to kill anything false

Postby yoshi8 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:45 pm

Hi Hannah

Will try and keep a ;fresh' approach to this and put aside any preconceptions as much as I can.

What comes up when I read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never
has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be?”

I have ambivalent thoughts and feelings that arise. In one side there is sense of relief and expansion to be able to let go of this sense of self of a 'you' which brings with it much suffering and fear. So I see that is what the relief side is about that I don't have to hang on to and protect this small set of anxieties and inadequacies which come with a 'I' taking ownership. Also when someone is negative or critical it's very much towards 'you'. You did this, did not to that and so on which causes suffering. The expansion feeling is also tied to not being limited by a 'you' that what's left, the awareness is bigger then all of that, the chains of 'self'.

On the other side there's this little voice inside.. the 'inner child' for lack of a better term that is saying 'that's crazy, what do you mean no "you". Clearly if I am in pain it is 'you' that feels the pain and no one else...emotional or physical. There is also the heart, the emotions that seem closely bound to the sense of 'I'. The compassion, tenderness, love all seem to emanate from a centre.... from a sense of self, acting, feeling, looking.. the key word which springs up is 'intimacy'.

If intimacy is the core of my inner child, deepest part of me how can that come from no "you" from a void of self.

Hope this is okay and I just wrote what came out of me.

Thanks
Andy

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Ready to kill anything false

Postby Hannah B-T » Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:47 pm

That's good stuff, but before I ask further questions I'd like you to take a careful look at this, especially the part about emotion...

This investigation is here to determine if the separate 'I', 'me' is actually real or not.
For this, I will ask you to look into your own Direct Experience here and now and look to see if what I am asking is true for you. This is utterly simple, but many people seem to struggle with it.

What can we say about our experience right here and now? Keeping things very simple.

Right now, all the senses are operating. There is seeing, hearing, touch, smell and taste.
In the immediate moment, all these things are functioning.

Added to this there is also 'thinking'. As well as the senses being experienced, thoughts can be experienced. Thoughts could be something direct like 'I must go out and buy some milk' or more abstract like remembering the image of a person's face, a feeling as you stroked an animal or recalling the sound of song.
Just check in and let me know if this description I have given is true for you.

Emotions like sadness, anxiety and fear can also be experienced, and generally they are a thought, accompanied by a feeling or sensation. For example, the thought 'Oh God, I hope I pass this important exam' can be accompanied by sensations, feelings like 'butterflies in the stomach', a headache, sickness etc.

I mention all this so that we are on the 'same page' in terms of how we perceive the world.
Does this sound a fair description of how you perceive the world right now?
Is there any other 'experience' appearing to you in the immediate moment other than 'thoughts' and what is being perceived through the senses?
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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yoshi8
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Re: Ready to kill anything false

Postby yoshi8 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:39 pm

Hi Hannah,

Yeah I would agree on your description in general that is how I perceive and experience the world on a daily basis.

The other experience appearing in the immediate moment other than 'thoughts' and what is being perceived through the senses is one of detached 'awareness'... I am hesitant to use the word observer as its more just 'a sense of 'being'. In mediation when all slows down this 'awareness', being-ness becomes more pronounced or to the point that is all there is. Which is not empty but a completeness that does not need anything. In everyday life however it is as you describe a world dominated by thoughts, feelings and a physical sensations.

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Ready to kill anything false

Postby Hannah B-T » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:04 pm

Ok, I resonate with what you are talking about there, but let's stick just for now with the most predominant things happening as you say in 'everyday life'. The fab thing about this approach is it requires no special or 'ideal' conditions whatsoever.

Regarding this sentence you said-
There is also the heart, the emotions that seem closely bound to the sense of 'I'. The compassion, tenderness, love all seem to emanate from a centre....
I would like you to explore this 'centre' in a slightly new way for me by looking at your direct experience if and when it arises. Maybe read the statement about no-self again, and answer these questions in turn-

Is it made of physical sensation?

Where exactly does it seem to be located?

Is it there all the time or does it arise and pass away?

What happens when it is looked at?

When you are clear on these then let this question permeate...

Are 'you' this 'centre'?

Let me know what you find out.
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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yoshi8
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Re: Ready to kill anything false

Postby yoshi8 » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:09 pm

I have looked at my direct experience of this and tried to see if what I am calling the 'centre' and the 'I' are the same thing. It seems like most of the time the sense of 'I' is located in the head as a continuing thought. Now I see what I was calling the 'centre' seems more tied to emotions.

To explain what I mean with an example if i am sitting in a room alone and just observing then the sense of 'I' seem as described located in the head as a continuing thought i.e. "Why am I in this room. How long will I be here. I am feeling hungry (physical trigger of 'I' thought). Now if someone comes into the room and says for example "I hate you" or "I love you" then the sense of centre arises as a emotional and physical reaction in the body centred mostly around the stomach and throat it seems. It then feels like the 'I' and 'Centre' become joined as a more intense experience of 'self'. So when I talked about the heart and emotions bound closlely to a sense of 'I' i think this is what I mean. The 'I' thought, emotions and physical reaction combine as a unified sense of 'self'. i.e. I am in grief, I am in love, I feel compassionate. So the emotions give validity to the 'I' thought as if to say 'I' is real because I can feel it, located it in the body, experience it physically. It almost seems at times the 'Centre' can trump the 'I' thought because its a felt experience. Does this make sense?
Are 'you' this 'centre'?
When the centre arises strongly then it seems like 'I' am the centre because its an all encompassing experience of self. So say its the emotion of anger. The direct experience of anger the 'I' thought would say you are angry, this is 'your' anger. Now at what point this ownership of the emotion or 'centre' with the 'I' thought happens I am not sure. It seems on most occasions 'thought' gives rise to emotions but i don't think it's black and white with physical triggers of the senses thrown in the mix. i.e. a smell > a memory > emotion

Sorry if i can not be clearer at this point but I don't want to say yes or no unless I am clear.

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Ready to kill anything false

Postby Hannah B-T » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:57 pm

Thanks for you responses, you are showing me clearly where to point, thanks... hence there is lots in here to look at! I've put in bold the main questions to look into...
Yes, clarity is a good word to use with this process. Analysis of thought content will NOT provide that, if it had you would not be here and still seeking. This is why we are using a radically different approach.
'I' seem as described located in the head as a continuing thought
Nice- to see clearly these 'i' thoughts rolling along. We'll come back to these..

However are you SURE they are located 'in the head'? This is a common response but I put it to you this is pure assumption...based possibly from the scientific model and ideas about thoughts originating in the brain which is located in the head. Is that possible? Is it possible to drop these ideas and take a fresh look?

What is your bare direct experience through the senses of 'head'?
I love you" then the sense of centre arises as a emotional and physical reaction in the body centred mostly around the stomach and throat it seems.
Describe this reaction as it is percieved in more detail. Does it have a -
size?
shape?
density?
Again, regarding the perceived location- what is your direct experience of 'throat' and 'stomach'? An image?


It then feels like the 'I' and 'Centre' become joined
I read here- the 'i' thoughts (that you described above) and the sensations (this 'centre') seem to become joined... IS that accurate?
I don't understand this, please look again and explain how this is experienced...

Now you didn't actually answer my questions about the 'centre' completely directly. That's ok it's early days :) but i can see some of the answers in what was written so i'm going to tease them out. Check carefully and see if these replies seem accurate when you look...

Is it made of physical sensation?
yes
(but i've asked you to describe these further for me)

Where exactly does it seem to be located?
In the stomach and throat area.
Also there is an experience of 'i' thoughts being located in the head.

Is it there all the time or does it arise and pass away?
From what you have written I'm going for arises and passes away/changes.

What happens when it is looked at?
This was not clear from your response

Are 'you' this 'centre'?
When the centre arises strongly then it seems like 'I' am the centre because its an all encompassing experience of self
We are not looking for 'seems'. Seems is a pure thought response indicating lack of clarity to me.
This is actually a yes/no question ;)

Is this really an 'all encompassing experience?'- What do you mean? When it occurs nothing else is being perceived? Whatsoever? Are you sure?
Please check this.

xx
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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yoshi8
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Re: Ready to kill anything false

Postby yoshi8 » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:20 pm

Many thanks for your time on your replies here. I will try and be as clear as i can in my responses here.
However are you SURE they are located 'in the head'? This is a common response but I put it to you this is pure assumption...based possibly from the scientific model and ideas about thoughts originating in the brain which is located in the head. Is that possible? Is it possible to drop these ideas and take a fresh look?
I am not sure at all that my thoughts are located in my head. It just seems that is the interior in which they arise. I have been told by others that the mind is a liquid and thoughts arise on a different plane of consciousness. But yes the scientific model is that they arise in the brain. I can certainly say that I do not know for sure where thoughts are originating and open to take a fresh look.
What is your bare direct experience through the senses of 'head'?
There is looking, smell, listening, and skin/nerves of the flesh. I can experience all these senses without thought but I am not clear on what is a 'direct experience '. By that I mean is looking at a fly more direct than feeling a fly land on your skin? Sorry if I am going off track here but just wanted to be clear.
Describe this reaction as it is percieved in more detail. Does it have a -
size?
shape?
density?
Again, regarding the perceived location- what is your direct experience of 'throat' and 'stomach'? An image?
The process goes thought > emotion > Physical. The heart or centre is at the solar plexus and is small and dense like a diamond. The emotion aspect radiates in the stomach as a round ball, also around the throat area. This I am describing is a reaction as perceived.

So in terms of the 'I' becoming joined with this centre, what I mean is the 'I' thought is that this centre , heart is the core of 'self'. Sort of like when some one says "I really, really mean it" and place their hand on their heart. Like the depths of 'me' can't just be a thought.. the 'self' has to have a centre. Again I understand this is an assumption and I am just describing my perception of it. Like the heart of 'me' is the truth of me like that centre is a glowing core of real 'self'. I know this is all imagined but this is the held image / experience.
What happens when it is looked at?
I found this hard to answer at the time and I think when its looked at it feels like the 'I' in the head is observing a emotional child, If I was to describe this as an image. Or depending on intensity the 'I' can become startled and dissolves into this centre so it seems.
Are 'you' this 'centre'?

We are not looking for 'seems'. Seems is a pure thought response indicating lack of clarity to me.
This is actually a yes/no question ;)

Is this really an 'all encompassing experience?'- What do you mean? When it occurs nothing else is being perceived? Whatsoever? Are you sure?
Please check this
If i was pushed at this point i would say NO I am not the centre. And I when I said the centre could be an an encompassing experience .. looking at this again I meant the centre experience could remove the 'I' as a thought. There would still be perception but that sense of 'I' could vanish. To give an example if I stood in front of some awe inspiring sight to be so overwhelmed by it the sense of 'self' dissolves and there is only the perception of what is... not 'I' am observing this.

If I have any more clarity on this I will write it down.

xx

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Ready to kill anything false

Postby Hannah B-T » Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:31 pm

I am not sure at all that my thoughts are located in my head
not sure/don't know is a great place to start!
open to take a fresh look.
Ok then. Let's do it. :)
There is looking, smell, listening, and skin/nerves of the flesh.
skin..nerves..are they felt directly? Or are these biological concepts?

Let's break this down with exercises and it may be clearer what i'm pointing out. Let's go as slow as needed with this, it's vital.

Sound is often easiest to start with:
Sit quietly and get interested in whatever sounds are present.

In direct experience (experiencing BEFORE thought concepts kick in)... can you find:
Ears?
A border/separation between the sound and the hearing of the sound?
A 'hearer'?

maybe try it with more complex sounds, like music.
Let me know what you find out.

By that I mean is looking at a fly more direct than feeling a fly land on your skin?
What are you asking? Is seeing more 'direct' than tactile sensation?
No, they are both directly experienced.
However 'fly' isn't.
The direct experience i would describe would be of a pattern of colours and movement and or tactile sensations.
This event could of happened when you were a baby and still been an equally valid experience, before any knowing the word 'fly' 'skin' etc. Does that seem reasonable to propose that?
The process goes thought > emotion > Physical
Funny, when I check it seems much more like:
Sensation (physical)....which thought THEN labels as an emotion (i'm angry) or then there is a story told about it (i'm angry because she said x)
Could you check again and made really sure for me?
Again I understand this is an assumption and I am just describing my perception of it. Like the heart of 'me' is the truth of me like that centre is a glowing core of real 'self'. I know this is all imagined
Yep.
Remember I'm not interested in imaginings of thought. I'm interested in your direct investigation of this 'self'.
I found this hard to answer at the time
yes i can tell that. Because there are lots of conflicting thoughts being thrown up here, like-
And I when I said the centre could be an an encompassing experience .. looking at this again I meant the centre experience could remove the 'I' as a thought. There would still be perception but that sense of 'I' could vanish. To give an example if I stood in front of some awe inspiring sight to be so overwhelmed by it the sense of 'self' dissolves and there is only the perception of what is... not 'I' am observing this.
You lost me here...seems lots of contradictions in this...

How about we go through a few exercises over the next few days and i'm confident this stuff will become clearer.

Try the sound one first for me...
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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yoshi8
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Re: Ready to kill anything false

Postby yoshi8 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:01 pm

In direct experience (experiencing BEFORE thought concepts kick in)... can you find:
Ears?
A border/separation between the sound and the hearing of the sound?
A 'hearer'?

maybe try it with more complex sounds, like music.
Let me know what you find out.
There appears to be no separation in direct experience of sound / music. There is awareness and when I start the music then there is music appearing with in this presence. I can not locate ears directly just mentally as previous understood knowledge/concept of how sound waves and how the ears work.

No objective hearing is heard before concept kicks in just awareness and sound.
Funny, when I check it seems much more like:
Sensation (physical)....which thought THEN labels as an emotion (i'm angry) or then there is a story told about it (i'm angry because she said x)
Could you check again and made really sure for me?
This seems right checking again what I missed is (physical) > awareness of physical / emotions > Thought labels
How about we go through a few exercises over the next few days and i'm confident this stuff will become clearer.
Sounds like a good idea :)

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Ready to kill anything false

Postby Hannah B-T » Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:48 pm

Great looking!

So no 'hearer' found right?

I encourage you look further into all the senses in this way but i'll give you some focus here-


take the word 'sitting'...what is the actual raw direct experience of sitting?
Particularly...can you find a distinction between 'bottom' and a 'chair' in direct experience...
'feet' and 'floor'?
'hand' and 'tabletop'?

In fact can you find ANY border or boundary between sensations labelled 'the body' and 'the outside/the world'?

xx
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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yoshi8
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Re: Ready to kill anything false

Postby yoshi8 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:26 pm

take the word 'sitting'...what is the actual raw direct experience of sitting?
Particularly...can you find a distinction between 'bottom' and a 'chair' in direct experience...
'feet' and 'floor'?
'hand' and 'tabletop'?
I think I now understand what is meant by direct experience better. So going on the direct experience of the arising sensations and not by memory, concept or image of this is my hand touching the desk or this is by bottom sitting on a chair, then I can not find any boundary.

The 'boundary only arises as a visualisation. So if I do this exercise with my eyes closed the visualisation becomes memory. The direct experience of the senses with memory switched off is there is no boundary between sensations labelled 'the body' and 'the outside/the world.

This was quite a revelation that I could even entertain the idea of switching off that 'visual' of 'me' and outside world as it seems crazy because it is so deep rooted.

xx


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