Seeking Guide Please

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Coffee
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Seeking Guide Please

Postby Coffee » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:46 am

Hi,

I have read quite a lot of books but still feel like there may be some uncertainty. I'm in the "I see it intellectually but don't feel it" camp. I'm also in the "I've seen it, but now it's gone" camp sometimes.

I would very much appreciate a guide and I don't have a preference.

Thanks a lot

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Re: Seeking Guide Please

Postby Coffee » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:38 am

I thought I'd give a little bit more information, as it may help the guide to know a little bit more of where I'm at.

So basically, I see my world ALMOST like this... I'm not saying it's exactly the same, but this is the best way I can put "this" into more words.

I see the world as if I am an observer, and patterns(visual), patterns(audio), patterns(sensations) all appear in my awareness. Some visual/audio patterns coincide with sesnsations. For example, if I put my hand in a fire then the visual pattern will match up with the sensation of extreme pain/discomfort. Also, if I push the button on my stereo, then the visual patterns that resemble the play button will move with the sensation of my finger touching the button and the music pattern will start.

I see no "reason" to keep living other than the fact that I like it. I used to see my life as almost a burden that I absolutely HAD to live, like it was essential and I had to live because otherwise my family/friends would be hurt. Now I see my life more that I am living simply for the experience, and I actually want to keep living. I also see a lot of my previous attachments that I saw negatively as the only things "holding this together". I see that certain things in my life I used to believe were "bad" are all just part of the big picture.

For example, I often compare my life to my sleeping dream experiences. So in my dream if I asked someone where a treasure chest was, and they gave me bad directions and I couldn't find it, then in my dream a recognizable sensation labelled "frustration" would turn up. I see though that in this dream it isn't actually important whether I find the treasure chest, and it's almost as if the whole story of finding the treasure chest was created to explain the sensation, rather than the other way round.

I don't really know what else to say, this was pretty much just random rambling. Thought says I need to be asked questions by someone else. (I also see that the possibility that no human is even conscious, because in my dreams when I sleep, other people seem to know stuff that I don't, but it seems absurd to believe that people in my dreams are conscious. So I'm not even sure who this question is being directed towards, or whether I'm just talking to myself wasting time because there's nothing else to do)

Anyway I hope you see the confusion and can provide some assistance. Thanks so much

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Re: Seeking Guide Please

Postby Ilona » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:42 am

Hi coffee,
Welcome to the forum.

How do you imagine it would feel to really see that there is no separate self? Would it be different then what it feels now?
And what do you mean by 'my awareness'? Where is the line between mine and somebody else's? What is that owns this awareness? Is it in some kind of container?

What do you expect to happen and how would you recognise it?
What is exactly that you are looking for?

Answer these questions with whole honesty, this is most important on this journey- no assumptions, just plain and simple descriptions of what you see and feel to be true.


This process is yours, I suggest you write everyday till all is clear. Writing helps mind to focus. I may not answer everyday, but please report what you notice at least once a day, that helps to keep momentum going.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: Seeking Guide Please

Postby Coffee » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:48 pm

Hi Ilona,

Thanks for guiding me :-)
Hi coffee,
Welcome to the forum.

How do you imagine it would feel to really see that there is no separate self? Would it be different then what it feels now?
I can't imagine anything would "look" very different or feel very different. It more feels like I should be able to see my body the same way I see "other peoples" bodies. However, the body in front of me still feels separate during conversation. There have been times where I have felt "watching myself talk". Where there was no effort to talk or converse with others, it all happened and I was just there to see the conversation. However, most of the time if I try to replicate this experience it ends up with me just standing in silence and not conversing much in social situations at all.

There was a time when I felt "complete oneness" and during this time I was having conversations with "others" and it was seen much more like I was talking to myself than talking to an "other"...
And what do you mean by 'my awareness'? Where is the line between mine and somebody else's? What is that owns this awareness? Is it in some kind of container?
I am what notices this awareness. I am this space in which this conversation appears, the thing that rationalizes what turns up in "this". When I talk about my awareness, I just mean life... Or the space in which sensations arise or the space in which colors arise... My consciousness, the thing that doesn't change. I can't find a line between mine and somebody elses, although the illusion is very convincing that "others" have an awareness, I can't find it in my experience besides the fact that "others" can point me back to myself as if they have done it themselves in the past, which would imply that they are conscious too (as much as there is no evidence in my direct experience other than thought). I feel like deep down I know that "others" are just a thought, just a construct like the thought of a table... but I don't want to admit this because the idea of being alone is scary, and the thought of having another 'being' like me that I can converse with is fun.
What do you expect to happen and how would you recognise it?
I guess I am expecting to be able to detach myself from what happens to my body, and to permanently know that I am not the "doer". I can't be sure what I am really looking for if I'm being entirely honest.
What is exactly that you are looking for?


The honest answer is I don't know. I am here to see what all the fuss is about... I feel like I know or have known the magical secret everyone is talking about in here, but don't really know what is so great about it... And because everyone else is acting like this thing is really great, it makes me feel like I'm missing something because for me it feels like if anything, this secret potentially takes all the fun out of life. (but for some reason I'm here wanting to know more about it)... How confused am I!!
This process is yours, I suggest you write everyday till all is clear. Writing helps mind to focus. I may not answer everyday, but please report what you notice at least once a day, that helps to keep momentum going.
Ok...

So for me it feels like right now there is colour, there is sound, there is sensations. Thoughts arise which are seemingly not constructed by the thing thought refers to as "me". That's about all that happens over here...

So for example someone in a social situation will say "oh man, I just got the most awesome new car it has this and that and this and that"... Then thoughts say "well I know that the car really isn't that awesome, it's just representing a climb of working hard for something and getting it, it's just a trophy like anything else".

Or someone will say "omg I'm so upset life is just terrible" and I'll know that life can't possibly be that terrible, there are only thoughts saying it's terrible and thoughts are just thoughts.

Or someone in a social situation will say "so what are you doing with yourself, you should be doing this that and the other"... And thoughts will say "well I don't have to be doing anything, I can jump off a building if I really wanted to, so ultimately you're just trying to sell me a dream to create motivation to do something, but whatever you're trying to get me to do I know isn't that important and probably not worth the effort".

Sorry if that sounds a little suicidal, ultimately that's the question I always get down to when looking within. The question that I always get to is "do you want to kill yourself?"... I've asked this question to myself a few times and generally get the answer "yes, but not yet". Which then comes the question, "well, when?"... Then thoughts pop up and say "when you've exhausted this world of all it's pleasures". So then I think of all the ways I can exhaust the world of pleasures, but then ultimately come back to the question of "free will", which is a very tricky question...

On one hand I see that I am not the author of my thoughts... On the other, the world I'm currently living definitely seems very much like the world I would create for myself if I had "total" control. So i get left in this situation of wonder as to whether I have total control, or whether I have no control. The answer is I don't know.

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Re: Seeking Guide Please

Postby Ilona » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:01 pm

It more feels like I should be able to see my body the same way I see "other peoples" bodies.
Wow, what an interesting thought! No, that's not going to change. The body is not in front of you either. Take a look. Where is that which is looking? Behind the body? Inside the body? In a head? Where would you say this witness abides?

I am what notices awareness- Another interesting statement. Is there I before awareness? Or I arises in awareness as thought? Is I more then a thought?

No you won't be able to detach yourself from what is happening with the body. There is nothing that detaches. There is no one that is attached to the body already and never was. Take a look, there is that which we call "body", is there an I attached?

There is no thing that word Me points to. It's a concept. No such thing at all. Take a look, can you experience what you call me with senses? Is it in seeing? In hearing? In tasting? Test with all senses see what you find.

One thing you got right- confusion. But not knowing is a good place to be, it allows one to look with fresh eyes. So all good.



What I ask you, when answering, stay away from philosophy, look in your experience and describe what you see RIGHT NOW, at the point of writing. Stay away from thought stories about imagined scenarios, focus on experience. That is most important.

Looking forward to your answers.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: Seeking Guide Please

Postby Coffee » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:00 pm

It more feels like I should be able to see my body the same way I see "other peoples" bodies.
Wow, what an interesting thought! No, that's not going to change. The body is not in front of you either. Take a look. Where is that which is looking? Behind the body? Inside the body? In a head? Where would you say this witness abides?
So for me I see "others" as separate to myself. I thought that through this realization I would see "others" bodies in no way separated from myself. In other words, to stop believing I am trapped in a body, and to see myself as the whole experience, and to see "others" as just as much a part of my "self" as that which I currently identify myself.

To answer your question, the thing that is looking is just here. I can't give it a physical location or describe it with words, because that which is describing is the thing which is looking. So it's almost like trying to describe where a 4 is. I know of 4 and what 4 is, but ultimately I cannot say the location of 4. (and really, 4 is indescribable through words without using another number, like 1+1+2)
It more feels like I should be able to see my body the same way I see "other peoples" bodies.
I am what notices awareness- Another interesting statement. Is there I before awareness? Or I arises in awareness as thought? Is I more then a thought?
No, I is not more than a thought. However, that begs the question... can anything be more than a thought? I can't find anything. So the "I" is as real (or fake) as anything else when I look closely.
No you won't be able to detach yourself from what is happening with the body. There is nothing that detaches. There is no one that is attached to the body already and never was. Take a look, there is that which we call "body", is there an I attached?
There seems to be an I attached, because when the body is pinched, a sensation is felt. Nothing else that I pinch can give the same sensation. Only the part of this experience that is being labelled as "body" can produce certain feelings.

Having said that I guess I answered my own question, because looking at one of my loved ones getting hurt by someone else would also produce a certain feeling that perhaps the body alone could not.

So I see the connectedness of my "self" to things other than the body occasionally, but it seems like the body is more "important" for some reason.

I think I just answered another one of my questions because I said "it seems like"... So then I look in DE and I guess these ideas only exist in thought.
There is no thing that word Me points to. It's a concept. No such thing at all. Take a look, can you experience what you call me with senses? Is it in seeing? In hearing? In tasting? Test with all senses see what you find.
When I say or think about the meaning behind "me" or "myself", I certainly feel like it is pointing to something. I don't know what that something is, but just thinking of the word "self" seems to produce feelings of wonder and confusion.

I looked at DE and when I look for the self in DE I feel like the self is not the body, it's the stuff happening. The self/I/me is the thing aware of stuff as it happens (not before or after).

Thanks again for the guide, I really appreciate it.

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Re: Seeking Guide Please

Postby Coffee » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:27 pm

And just so you know, I feel like I'm being really stubborn with you. Sorry if it comes across that way...

I feel like I could almost reply to myself, like I know what you're going to ask me and when you ask me questions I know immediately what the "correct" answer you want is. So it becomes difficult for me to answer your questions because the premise is that you know "this" thing and I don't, so when you ask a question and I know the answer you're wanting me to say, it becomes difficult for me to know if I'm really giving you the answer because I see it or if I'm bias to giving you the answer you're looking for so that I'll find out this "thing" that you're trying to show me.

I guess only I can know...

But then I think what do I REALLY know? Nothing really... Just listening/watching/feeling a whole lot of patterns and trying to rationalize them in ways that they cannot be rationalized. The only thing I know is that something is happening, I don't know what it is but something is definitely happening and that's the only truth I can give at this point.

For example, trying to rationalize what I'm doing right now... I don't even know! I'm on an internet forum talking to a stranger asking them who I am... Doesn't even make any sense.

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Re: Seeking Guide Please

Postby Coffee » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:40 pm

For example, here would be my reply to myself...
And just so you know, I feel like I'm being really stubborn with you. Sorry if it comes across that way...
I am trying to get you to see through the illusion of a separate self. That would imply that I do not see myself as separate to you. So who are you apologizing to? Does the person you're talking to exist in DE or are they just a concept, look?

(and the answer would obviously be that they only exist in thought, so there's no one to apologize to)
I feel like I could almost reply to myself, like I know what you're going to ask me and when you ask me questions I know immediately what the "correct" answer you want is. So it becomes difficult for me to answer your questions because the premise is that you know "this" thing and I don't, so when you ask a question and I know the answer you're wanting me to say, it becomes difficult for me to know if I'm really giving you the answer because I see it or if I'm bias to giving you the answer you're looking for so that I'll find out this "thing" that you're trying to show me.
Yes, I can't show you this, you can only look for yourself. I can point, but you need to look for yourself.
But then I think what do I REALLY know? Nothing really... Just listening/watching/feeling a whole lot of patterns and trying to rationalize them in ways that they cannot be rationalized. The only thing I know is that something is happening, I don't know what it is but something is definitely happening and that's the only truth I can give at this point.
Who is trying to rationalize these patterns? Where is this rationalizer? Is rationalization happening in DE? Or does it only exist in thought?

-----

Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems like this is the circle we're going to go in... I mention things that thoughts say and you point to the fact that these things only exist in thought... Then I say "I still don't feel it", and you say look in DE, is there anything that needs to feel it and I say "no". Then I'm still left wondering what the big deal is!

What am I doing wrong? (and you're going to tell me I'm not doing anything wrong)

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Re: Seeking Guide Please

Postby Coffee » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:42 pm

If you don't want me answering my own questions then please say so as well... I'm not entirely sure what I am "supposed" to be doing here... Just trying to throw all my thoughts at you so you can get a better understanding of my confusion.

Thanks again, I really appreciate any time you take to guide me, much more than you think.

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Re: Seeking Guide Please

Postby Ilona » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:56 pm

Good work, cripunching your own answers.

Lets go to the core- you say: when body is pinched, sensation is felt. Is it I that is feeling sensation?

Pinch a leg or arm, is there a gap between experiencer and experienced? Sensation is felt, it is body that feels it?
Is it I, that is attached to the body that feels it? Watch and describe what feels true.


Is there a witness or witnessing happening as another experience?
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Re: Seeking Guide Please

Postby Coffee » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:05 pm

Lets go to the core- you say: when body is pinched, sensation is felt. Is it I that is feeling sensation?
Well no, but the sensation is known. There is definitely something that feels the sensation. I can't say where it is though, but something definitely feels a distinct feeling and it can be repeated when pinching certain parts of the body. Even if the sensation is not "happening" to anyone, it is still felt by me.
Pinch a leg or arm, is there a gap between experiencer and experienced? Sensation is felt, it is body that feels it?
Is it I, that is attached to the body that feels it? Watch and describe what feels true.

Is there a witness or witnessing happening as another experience?
No, there isn't a witness, but there is something that feels the pain the moment it appears. There isn't a time lapse or a specific THING that it is happening to. And no, the thing that experiences this pain is the same thing that experiences things that happen to other people (empathy).

For example, the thing that feels the pain when my body is pinched, is the same thing that feels the pain of seeing one of my loved ones being hurt. And the same thing that feels "beauty" when a beautiful nature setting is looked at.

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Re: Seeking Guide Please

Postby Coffee » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:08 pm

And no, there isn't a gap between experiencer and experienced... The experienced directly implies the experiencer.

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Re: Seeking Guide Please

Postby Ilona » Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:14 pm

You think that experienced implies the experiencer. It's a common assumption. But experiencer is a product of language that is bases on subject/ object doing action. Experiencer is a concept, same like witness.

Yes, there is knowing. Knowing of experiencing, perceiving. I would call that one word- being (verb)

When pain appears, take a look behind, what is there?
Don't think, just look. Take a peek.

Write what you notice.
Truth realized will set you free.
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Re: Seeking Guide Please

Postby Coffee » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:35 am

You think that experienced implies the experiencer. It's a common assumption. But experiencer is a product of language that is bases on subject/ object doing action. Experiencer is a concept, same like witness.

Yes, there is knowing. Knowing of experiencing, perceiving. I would call that one word- being (verb)

When pain appears, take a look behind, what is there?
Don't think, just look. Take a peek.

Write what you notice.
What do you mean by take a look behind?

There isn't anything "behind" the pain, there is just pain being experienced. No separate "thing" experiencing the pain, but the pain is being experienced.

Only pain is there, not a person feeling the pain. Only thought says that there is a person experiencing the pain. Thought tells storys about the patterns being seen/heard/felt, these stories are really empty concepts because the thought of "pain" is actually nothing like the experience.

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Re: Seeking Guide Please

Postby Coffee » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:40 am

Something interesting though (but perhaps not relevant because it only exists in thought), but the thought of "self" brings upon a feeling that is labelled very nicely by thought. The idea of "self" or even just the thought or the word being heard in my head makes me feel very comfortable and at ease.

The word "self" seems to bring upon powerful sensations just at the thought of it, it feels like the word "self" is pointing at something of high significance.

Just thought I'd add that for whatever reason.


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