Ready :)

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nev
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Ready :)

Postby nev » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:22 pm

I've always wanted/tried to see myself as I really am. For me, this kind of seeking was a slow process because I did it alone with some partial success. The need of it was a matter of survival, because of those early internal and painful conflicts which I was trying to solve myself. I was in a constant battle, like a town divided against itself. I knew, by intuition or so, that the only way to stop that war is to know "myself", to be brave enough to see me as I am, to be honest with myself, to see beyond the everyday "me" and it's theater. Because only then I can accept what I called “my dark side” and stop fighting it. I am still fighting, everyday, but it's better and with less casualties:)

… I know that notions and words alter the truth... I know many things, but the problem is, that by myself only --- I can't go further. I'm a little afraid, yes, but I want to see deeper. Many years I was isolating myself from the others (and till now I never allowed someone else to guide me, because I didn't trust people and I didn't believe someone would really want to help me). But now something inside me (my heart?) wants to be connected... or even not to be connected, because I guess it already is, but to feel that connection, to be aware of it more often... all the time. I want also to stop my internal fighting and go beyond that. ... And I want to help people, to be able to ease their pain.

Well, I stop here. :)

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Paulo
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Re: Ready :)

Postby Paulo » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:36 pm

Hi nev, my name is Paulo, thank you for sharing a little of your story, and it would be a pleasure to guide you.

A few ground rules -

1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from personal experience only.
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
5. Read the FAQ page to get an idea of what we do here - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_FAQ.html
6. Learn how to use the quote function when responded to messages - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

If you are happy to agree to the above, let me know and we can begin.

Paulo :-)

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nev
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Re: Ready :)

Postby nev » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:03 pm

Hi, Paulo :)

Yes, I've read the rules and I agree with.

(Thank you :)

Nev

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Paulo
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Re: Ready :)

Postby Paulo » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:02 am

Hi nev, welcome, it's great to have you here,

What does the 'I' refer to in your experience?
(No philosophy or theories on this one - tell it as it is - nice and direct).

What comes up for you (thoughts/feelings/sensations) if I tell you there is no you in reality, and never was?
(Look to your experience in the moment here)

What do you expect from this process?

Paulo :)

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nev
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Re: Ready :)

Postby nev » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:56 am

What does the 'I' refer to in your experience?
In the moment when I look at me I can't refer Me to some material features or social position, it's a feeling :
I am pain, fire&light, abandoned, damaged, alone, hated, misunderstood, unworthy.

(Lots of words to express, but it's one feeling of Me -> I am Pain.)
What comes up for you (thoughts/feelings/sensations) if I tell you there is no you in reality, and never was?
--> Contradictory feelings/thoughts:

- Something in me doesn't want to be nobody; I fear I can lose myself, my identity, and become... I don't know … nothing, shapeless. “I” is my precious, and it's a matter of survival to have one.

- If I never was? – My life, my personal history, my failures and my growth - all seem pointless.

- I can't imagine there is no me and never was, I can't imagine how this could be possible. And how someone could exist that way. So I fear the unknown.

- At the same time I hate that constant "I-chant" in my mind, I think it makes me too selfish. And selfish is “bad”. Is restraining somehow. I don't want to be restrained.
What do you expect from this process?
Relief.
I know that there is – behind - something that observes the I, and is more than it. So I expect to be able to identify me with something vaster. To expand my awareness.

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Paulo
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Re: Ready :)

Postby Paulo » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:44 am

Hi nev,
What does the 'I' refer to in your experience?
...but it's one feeling of Me -> I am Pain
All sounds very dramatic, but tell me more about this 'Pain' -

What are we talking here - physical pain, emotional pain? Where is it located?

Does this pain come and go, or is it constant - even when in sleep?

What is it that's experiencing this pain? Can pain experience itself?

Something in me doesn't want to be nobody; I fear I can lose myself, my identity, and become... I don't know … nothing, shapeless. “I” is my precious, and it's a matter of survival to have one.
I can't imagine there is no me and never was, I can't imagine how this could be possible. And how someone could exist that way. So I fear the unknown.
There's no need to imagine not having a seperate 'me' - you already don't - and you're surviving pretty well without it. But don't take my word for it - here we look at experience rather than 'think' about what is and isn't. So let's look directly at that fear -

Let us use direct experience to teach us about fear - you may wish to take a quiet moment alone to look at this one – Close your eyes and think of what it is that’s currently activating fear for you. It doesn’t have to be a ‘thing’ or a ‘person’, just whatever caused the reaction you shared in your previous post.

Allow any fear that arises to just be there. Notice where you experience fear in the body – watch it, study it. Let it be there for as long as it’s there.

Share what you experienced.

[You may wish to read the story of ‘Philip’ in Gateless Gatecrashers (pg 15). But of course, always look to your own experience.]
What do you expect from this process?
Relief. I know that there is – behind - something that observes the I, and is more than it. So I expect to be able to identify me with something vaster. To expand my awareness.
It is important that you put aside all expectations, just for the moment, and look at your actual experience in the here and now. Remember, expectations are thoughts about a future that hasn't happened yet, and will never actually happen. Reality is what you find in the moment, and has no respect for expectations.

Paulo.

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nev
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Re: Ready :)

Postby nev » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:42 pm

Hi, Paulo,

(I didn't want it to sound dramatic really :)

- It's emotional and it's located in the solar plexus. And in the throat also, it's like a scream that never had been screamed... And in the muscles of the jaws... In the eyebrows. It's moving. But there is another part of it, let's say in the heart area, and I can't say it's pure pain at all, it's almost the opposite - something light and powerful and loving. What I feel like myself has two poles or has light and darkness at the same time, but I feel it in different proportions and can't feel them separately. When I try to see myself I see pain mostly. Maybe pain is not me, but it alters my vision – I can not see behind it.

- "Pain" comes and goes indeed, or at least changes its intensity. In sleep? I don't know. How could I?:)

- No, the pain can't experience itself. It's me that experiences the pain. But I'm not sure what 'me' is in that case. And ... I see - I can not be what I experience?

*
The fear...

There is no fear:) I had all these thoughts about fear and why I should be afraid. But I didn't realize at first that there was no real feeling behind. When I tried to feel, I got to thoughts-about-fear again. Thoughts about "feeling fear" because "loosing myself is terrifying". So ..... I felt nothing at all – only some kind of stillness, indifference... On a physical level – nothing.

Should I try harder?;)

[ I'll try not to read stories for now, because I could be easily influenced. I prefer not to know what I'm doing. But if you still recommend - I'll read it.]
It is important that you put aside all expectations, just for the moment, and look at your actual experience in the here and now. Remember, expectations are thoughts about a future that hasn't happened yet, and will never actually happen. Reality is what you find in the moment, and has no respect for expectations.
And thank's for that :)

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Paulo
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Re: Ready :)

Postby Paulo » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:21 pm

Hi nev, many thanks for your response,
It's emotional and it's located in the solar plexus. And in the throat also
Good, this is a description of what was experienced in locating that Pain.
it's like a scream that never had been screamed... And in the muscles of the jaws... In the eyebrows. It's moving. But there is another part of it, let's say in the heart area, and I can't say it's pure pain at all, it's almost the opposite - something light and powerful and loving. What I feel like myself has two poles or has light and darkness at the same time, but I feel it in different proportions and can't feel them separately. When I try to see myself I see pain mostly.
Can you see that these are thoughts ABOUT what was experienced. This is the drama, the story, the fiction, an illusion. It comes AFTER the experience, and exists only as thought. Remember - thoughts are real, but the content is not.
But I'm not sure what 'me' is in that case
Indeed, it's not so easy to pin point what's being referred to by the word 'I' or 'me'. Surely, if there WAS a seperate entity behind the word 'I' it would be very simple and straightforward to identify ... right?
Should I try harder?;)
No, everything is happening perfectly, you're doing just fine :)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

A key point here is being able to distinguish between what's actually happening in reality (what we call Direct Experience, or DE), and what's happening in thought (imaginary or an illusion). It may be useful to look at Neil's short article on DE here if you're unfamiliar with the approach - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html

For the next few posts we will look at the elements of direct experience more closely.

Let's look at THOUGHTS in a little more detail today -

Think of a car.

Share your experience of what happens when you think of a car in as much detail as you can.

How did the thought arrive? Was there a nev there choosing the particular car that appeared in thought, it's colour, size, etc?

How did that particular car appear from all the possible cars that could have appeared?


Paulo.

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nev
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Re: Ready :)

Postby nev » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:15 pm

Hi, Paulo,
thank's a lot for your time and directions :)

Now I can see layers of thoughts, yes, that are maintaining some sort of a legend about me, a myth, that is constantly confirmed, every time I look at me. But some of the things I described were things I observed on a physical level and can't see them like thought-generated... yet. Some of my observations could be counterfeit by my hypothesis about what is happening to me. Hypothesis I chose to believe in. Because I want people to see me that way? And I want me to see me that way? Idk.

(The link leading to the DE article is broken.)

*
The Car...

First after agreeing (with you:) to do so, I had the intention to think of a car. And I saw multiple choices in front of me : as if in my head there was a library, a rich inventory of shapes and colors, and textures – there was a stream of choices that changed very fast and I was able to choose easily some of them by simple thinking : “yes” or “no”. My thinking of a car was somehow directed : I couldn't chose an arbitrary combination, it was like I knew what to chose, what I was searching, I had preferences, hesitations also between several images. Then I tried to think of a different car, but I couldn't because I didn't want to. This was MY choice, and MY car. It represented me, and I wanted it to represent me correctly. The concrete choice was a deep-blue modern car, not too splendid or catching the eye, middle-sized, but glossy, stable, clean and with deep reflections. Tried several times to think about some flashy red luxury car but rejected the image. :) Oh, and I thought even about the driver of the car …
Was it the same way that I chose my personality? It's something about the way I chose to look like ?
But if I have preferences, what is it that has preferences ? If it's something universal - why everyone pick different choices in life ?

Nev

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Paulo
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Re: Ready :)

Postby Paulo » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:25 pm

Hi Nev,
thank's a lot for your time and directions :)
No problem, it's my pleasure to guide you.
(The link leading to the DE article is broken.)
Sorry about that, this one should so the trick - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html
But some of the things I described were things I observed on a physical level and can't see them like thought-generated... yet
Sure, we can take a closer look at that right away -
it's like a scream that never had been screamed... And in the muscles of the jaws... In the eyebrows.
I'm assuming it's the line above you're referring to. So, ask yourself can emotional pain be experienced in the jaw and eyebrows, or, is this physical tension being interpreted as 'emotional pain'?

Look at that very closely - is there really emotional pain there, or is there physical tension?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some of my observations could be counterfeit by my hypothesis about what is happening to me. Hypothesis I chose to believe in. Because I want people to see me that way? And I want me to see me that way? Idk.
A hypothesis is a type of expectation - it only exists in thought, and doesn't necessarily have any relationship to what's actually happening in reality. What we do here is really simple, we LOOK at what IS in reality (here I'm defining reality as Direct Experience). Reality is not something that can be experienced through thinking ABOUT reality, as thought is only representative OF reality, and as such is one step removed from it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
First after agreeing (with you:) to do so, I had the intention to think of a car. And I saw multiple choices in front of me : as if in my head there was a library, a rich inventory of shapes and colors, and textures – there was a stream of choices that changed very fast and I was able to choose easily some of them by simple thinking : “yes” or “no”. My thinking of a car was somehow directed : I couldn't chose an arbitrary combination, it was like I knew what to chose, what I was searching, I had preferences, hesitations also between several images. Then I tried to think of a different car, but I couldn't because I didn't want to. This was MY choice, and MY car. It represented me, and I wanted it to represent me correctly. The concrete choice was a deep-blue modern car, not too splendid or catching the eye, middle-sized, but glossy, stable, clean and with deep reflections. Tried several times to think about some flashy red luxury car but rejected the image. :) Oh, and I thought even about the driver of the car …
I need you to have another go at the car exercise - remember, what we do here is LOOK at what IS in reality. Perhaps it's just the way the question is phrased, but what I want you to do is think of a car - a car appears in consciousness, that's it - LOOK at that experience.
Was it the same way that I chose my personality? It's something about the way I chose to look like ?
But if I have preferences, what is it that has preferences ? If it's something universal - why everyone pick different choices in life ?
There's no need to speculate, again, you won't think your way through this - it's not an intellectual or philisophical exercise. Reality exists, there's no need to guess or think ABOUT it - just look - nice and simple.

Paulo.

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nev
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Re: Ready :)

Postby nev » Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:38 am

Hi, Paulo:)

First about the car.

I can not see a stable image. Indeed “see” I not really – the car is a blurred image with constantly changing edges and details, or like many cars superposed. The changing is somehow a thinking – multiple thoughts like an indistinct murmur of many voices. Or I can't describe it in words.
I can not fix the whole image and see it clear and definite, but I am not good with visualizations. I kept trying to look – it's difficult for me not to think about looking but look only (I am a big, a great Thinker:))

In order to distract me of thinking – I tried to do things with that unstable image: to zoom in and out, to see it at different angles, rotate. To pass through. There was a position in zooming in when the “seer in me” was in the car and at the same time I was somehow seeing the whole image of the car also from the “outside”, or more precisely "there was an image seen from the outside"; which is logically impossible if my center/point of view is really located somewhere in that “seer”. Then I increased too much the size of the car so it came out of my “viewing area”, but somehow I still could see all the car and it was both outside of what I think was Me seeing it, and inside me completely. I can't position me anymore anywhere as an entity that sees.
I can not do more for now, it's tiring – I feel I am about to understand something, but still can't get it...)

(I've read the article – and I can say the same as above: I have the feeling I get it, but something important is missing in my experience to get it for good.)
Look at that very closely - is there really emotional pain there, or is there physical tension?
For the moment I can not tell more, because NOW there is not such a feeling at all that I could look closely at. But I had it and with intensity while I was writing my first posts. It comes and goes really. What remains are some records about what it was several days ago, for example, or every week..., or many years . But that's not real experience neither, yes? Now there is nothing to experience directly, only a memory of it, about something that happened in the past. And a knowing that sooner or later it will happen again. Maybe I wait that the feeling comes again?

Nev:)

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Paulo
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Re: Ready :)

Postby Paulo » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:00 am

Hi nev,
I can not see a stable image.
That's fine, and as you will see when you look - thoughts are constantly changing and shifting, so even if it's a blurred image you see, that's good. The point is to look at the genesis of thought, the very first beginning, and ask How does the thought arise, WHAT is it that's thinking. It's a really simple exercise, but we will leave it aside for now, and return to it later.
I am a big, a great Thinker:)
Is this just a thought like any other, what is it EXACTLY that's thinking?
but something important is missing in my experience to get it for good
Really? or is this just another expectation, another thought?

If you 'got it', how would the experience be different from the current experience? What would it look like?

Paulo

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nev
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Re: Ready :)

Postby nev » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:38 pm

Hi Paulo,
Is this just a thought like any other, what is it EXACTLY that's thinking?
I noticed that I can not just look, or hear, or perceive - interpretations of the perceived appear.
I can't see what generates my thoughts.
Thoughts just appear or are there. Until now I was convinced that “I think”. After the exercise with the car I am not sure that it is me that's thinking. There are thoughts.
I still "believe" that "I" am thinking, but in my experience there is no connection between the thoughts and "me" - I can not see proofs that I am generating them.
Really? or is this just another expectation, another thought?
If you 'got it', how would the experience be different from the current experience? What would it look like?
I told that because most of the time I continue to consider me as a center of my perceptions and thoughts – it's by habit. I can not see/feel/experience I am not a center. Only, sometimes, for a moment, something different happens – no thoughts/interpretations of any kind, only perceptions that aren't linked to anything that generates them, or I don't care, there is just a flow of perceptions and everything else is silent. These moments end with the apparition of thoughts trying to explain them.

Expectations? Yes, it seems... something like: I'll get it when I manage to change my perspective.
That's why I don't want to know what I am doing or other background information.

Nev

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Paulo
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Re: Ready :)

Postby Paulo » Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:54 pm

Hi nev,
I noticed that I can not just look, or hear, or perceive - interpretations of the perceived appear.
I can't see what generates my thoughts.
Thoughts just appear or are there. Until now I was convinced that “I think”. After the exercise with the car I am not sure that it is me that's thinking. There are thoughts.
Great, that's exactly it - what we are talking about here is the actual moment of appearance of a thought. You can try that exercise with anything really - think of a flower, a swan, a house - and an appropriate thought will appear in awareness.

In my experience too, thoughts come and go, but looking at the very moment of appearance of thoughts they simply arise in reaction to stimuli (in this case the request to think of a car), or in reaction to other thoughts. It's all automatic, all happening without an 'I' in the background seperate from that process controlling it. But don't take my word for it - let's take a look at a little exercise which explores just how automatic this labelling and interpreting of the percieved actually is -

When it's convienient to do so sit silently for 60 secs and focus on your direct experience of sound (even close your eyes if you feel this helps your focus). See if you can let whatever sounds are there to simply be there, without labelling or interpreting them.

Observe what happens during the 60 secs and share your direct experience here (with some examples would be great :).
I can not see/feel/experience I am not a center.
Take a really really hard look at this one - what is at the center?

Paulo.

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nev
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Re: Ready :)

Postby nev » Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:06 am

Hi Paulo,
Observe what happens during the 60 secs and share your direct experience here
I did that first with random noise/sounds - the ticking of a clock and the ambient noise from the street. In these moments, when I am not interpreting or situating me toward the sound to be perceived, I can experience sound(s) only, nothing more. It's as if everything in me is just sound.
Since there were more than one sound however, "I" appeared as an intention, or just attention that's changing and choosing on what to focus. Days before that I did it with music - I perceived music only, nothing more, or I can say also that I somehow was the music.
Take a really really hard look at this one - what is at the center?
For now I see that the center is me, my intention to perceive. But when I try to feel that "me-center", I see it just like the image of the car: it is not stable - many details about me are changing - it's some strange combination of many "me": my own physical image, my focused attention, my eyes, or different self-representaions of myself, also like images, or just "feelings" about what I should be - all that tries to be me.

Nev


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