Request for a guide

[kyprch]

Hi, am new here and I express my appreciation for All the important contribution of this site to the global awakening.
Would appreciate it if a guide can Help.Thanks
Kyprch

[Xain]

Hello Kyprch

Welcome to the Forum.

Do you have any background in this area? Have you read any non-duality books or followed any particular teachers?

Can you tell me what you guidance you are looking for. What is it that you seek in our dialogue together?

Xain ♥

[kyprch]

Hi Xain,
Thanks a lot for replying to my request, appreciate it.I was lately drawn to non duality teachings after searching for some time.Read some books and felt this approach is for me.
I felt it would allow me to get rid of the attachment to the self and all the conditioning , excess baggage of my life.
After a traumatic childhood , attachment to persons as well as things was and still is draining my energy and light.
Long so much for the selfless freedom and liberation , although am still confused and fearful of the unknown.
Look forward to your feedback.By the way my name is Chris.
Again thanks for your guidance, look so much forward to it
Chris

[Xain]

Hi again Kyprch / Chris :-)

I felt it would allow me to get rid of the attachment to the self and all the conditioning , excess baggage of my life.

Two things to mention here.
First of all, it is important to not have any expectations of the outcome of this conversation. This in it's self could prevent the truth from being seen or at least hamper the direct 'seeing' of what is.
Our dialogue will be specifically addressing 'I', this 'person' that we take ourselves to be. The goal (if you can call it that) would be the direct realisation that there is no 'I', no separate 'entity' here. Nor has there ever been, or will ever will be in the future. Is this what you seek?

Xain ♥

[kyprch]

Dear Xain,
Thanks a lot for your reply.Yes I can see what you mean about expectations and agree to refrain from having any expectations whatsoever.I also understand what you mean by saying that there is no 'I' and no separate entity and agree to work on that as well.
All my life I have been trying to protect and camouflage this very fearful 'I' and I quests it is time to let it go.
Am open and eager to have a dialoque with you along these principles and I appreciate your presence here with me.
Thanks
Chris

[Xain]

Hi Chris

Great!

Our dialogue together is not intended to feed you new concepts or beliefs - Simply to look (with care) at beliefs that are currently held and see if they hold up to scrutiny. It is simply an extension of your own self-inquiry.
Most of the discussion will be me asking questions, and you answering, although at any time you can question stuff if you need to. The purpose is for you to find the answer yourself. To make the realisation your own.
All I can ask is for you to look and see if what is being looked at is really true or not.

A few guidelines which will assist us both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
(Scroll down the page)

If you need to you can use the QUOTE function like I have done in the previous reply - It may make it easier to read through the dialogue.
A guide for this function can be found here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Xain ♥

[kyprch]

Hi Xain,
Thanks a lot for replying to my message and for informing me about the guidelines that will assist along this process. Also read the disclaimer and am ready to start up our dialogue.
I feel very exited about it .Had some very short instances of emptying my mind and being free of any expectations.
Thanks for your presence
Chris

[Xain]

Had some very short instances of emptying my mind and being free of any expectations.

I just need to be clear here. When I say 'be free of any expectations', it is that people often have notions of what will happen or what will be experienced after seeing through the illusion of self (i.e. Bliss, Peace, Happiness, Joy etc). For the moment, put all these aside.
Also, put aside any previous study you may have done, non-duality terms and descriptions etc. and approach this very simply and freshly. Perhaps like a child who is interested in examining and learning about something.

Ok, Chris I'll begin by explaining what is meant by 'Direct Experience' and then we can have a look at 'I'.

This investigation is here to determine if the separate 'I', 'me' is actually real or not.
For this, I will ask you to look into your own Direct Experience here and now and look to see if what I am asking is true for you. This is utterly simple, but many people seem to struggle with it.

Right now, all the senses are operating. There is seeing, hearing, touch, smell and taste.
In the immediate moment, all these things are functioning.

Added to this there is also 'thinking'. As well as the senses being experienced, thoughts can be experienced. Thoughts could be something direct like 'I must go out and buy some milk' or more abstract like remembering the image of a person's face, a feeling as you stroked an animal or recalling the sound of song.
Just check in and let me know if this description I have given is true for you.

I mention all this so that we are on the 'same page' in terms of how we perceive the world.
Is there any other 'experience' appearing to you right now in the immediate moment other than 'thoughts' and what is being perceived through the senses?

Xain ♥

[kyprch]

Hi Xain,
Thanks for your message. I was looking at the information regarding how we perceive the world and I can see that I am having the sensations like taste, seeing, hearing touching, even though often not aware of them.
At the same time thoughts as being part of perceiving the world are inundating my mind and awareness, often not allowing me to be in touch with my senses and be present.
What about emotions , like sadness, anxiety and fear? aren't they also part of our perceptual world? Unless of course we could look at them as subtle thoughts as well?
I often struggle with efforts to empty my mind and have a clear awareness that allows me to be really present.
Thanks

[Xain]

I was looking at the information regarding how we perceive the world and I can see that I am having the sensations like taste, seeing, hearing touching, even though often not aware of them.

Good.
Certainly, it appears focus is drawn to a particular attention sometimes - particularly the 'weaker' senses like smell and taste.

At the same time thoughts as being part of perceiving the world are inundating my mind and awareness, often not allowing me to be in touch with my senses and be present.

Yes, that's a very good observation. A thought might 'drag you away' so you are lost in thought, and for that time, it appears that the senses are secondary (like daydreaming for example).

What about emotions , like sadness, anxiety and fear? aren't they also part of our perceptual world? Unless of course we could look at them as subtle thoughts as well?

Good point - Let's look at those.
Sadness, I could define as being a thought coupled with a feeling in the body.
So if the sad thought is 'I just lost my job', it can be coupled with a feeling in the body - particularly in the chest area.
Perhaps being worried about something, a thought like 'I hope I don't fail this exam' is also coupled with feelings in the body of fever, sweating, sickness etc
So these emotions appear as a thought (or at least something we can define as a thought), coupled with an experience via the senses.
Does that seem a fair assessment?

Xain ♥

[kyprch]

Hi Xain
Thanks for your message. I can see what you mean.The information you supplied regarding thoughts and also about emotion being thoughts coupled with feelings on the body is something I understand and more or less am aware of.
Yet at times thoughts stick in my head and although at times observing and noticing them makes them weaker, often I can not let go of and I feel angry and irritated as part of a vicious circle.
I am often aware of emotions like fear about something ,coupled with a pressure on my stomach , chest , sweating , numbness and feeling trapped or immobilized as if there is no hope or escape .
Thanks
Chris

[Xain]

I am often aware of emotions like fear about something ,coupled with a pressure on my stomach , chest , sweating , numbness and feeling trapped or immobilized as if there is no hope or escape

If any of these things come up during our conversation together, please mention them so we can look into them.
Sometimes examining who we truly are can bring up unusual feelings and emotions.

Anyway, on to 'what is 'I'' . . .

Keep this very simple.
When you say 'I', what exactly are you referring to? From what you have written, we can look into this . . .

I am having the sensations like taste, seeing, hearing touching, even though often not aware of them.

So 'I' has the experience of the senses, 'I see, I hear, I feel etc'. 'I' can be aware, and also not aware.

I felt it would allow me to get rid of the attachment to the self . . .

So 'I' is something that can get rid of an attachment. Perhaps also 'I' is the one that has an attachment.

All my life I have been trying to protect and camouflage this very fearful 'I' . . .

So 'I' is a thing that has a 'life'.
'I' has the ability to try something. 'I' has the ability to protect something.

Are these things I am mentioning OK? This body is perhaps 'I'? The mind is 'I'?
Give some time to this. Tell me in your own words what is 'I'?

Xain ♥

[kyprch]

Xain hi,
Thanks a lot for your message.The message resonated a lot with me.I felt what you said very ok and real in my life.
At the same time I felt confused as I was trying to make sense of it , find myself in that 'I' and at the same lost my self into that.
Who am I really? Who is this 'I' , why can't I let go of it? What would happen if I let go of it?Maybe I fear I would disappear if this is lost, that this 'I'disappears.The 'I' is both cherished and repudiated at the same time.Both needing it and discarding it.
The 'I'is the body, the mind and maybe I am none of those.At the same time feel responsible for the mistakes and for the flaws of this mind and this body.Wonder whether am accepted, ok , good enough, but then who is supposed to be good enough?And to whom is supposed to be good enough?Can I love and accept this 'I'.And then what? So what?
What do I do then?I look at this body , trying to detach from it and at the same time fearing detachment.
But then who is this body and who is this 'I' that wants to detach from whom?
I am aware of my body and at the same time feel a node in my stomach, pressure in my stomach and a moment later I free my self from this node.I do not know if what I write makes sense.I am sorry if it does not.
Thanks
Chris

[Xain]

I do not know if what I write makes sense. I am sorry if it does not.

It is perfect. Feel completely free to write whatever you want to, and whatever comes up for you.
This is YOUR investigation - YOUR search. Let's go into this deeply.

Who am I really? Who is this 'I' , why can't I let go of it? What would happen if I let go of it?

Perhaps notice the puzzling nature of what you are saying.
You are saying that there is an 'I' that could let go of 'I' . . .
Is there?

Maybe I fear I would disappear if this is lost, that this 'I' disappears. The 'I' is both cherished and repudiated at the same time. Both needing it and discarding it.

Notice again, the puzzling nature of what you are saying.
If 'I' disappears, there would be an 'I' that would notice that 'I' had disappeared, wouldn't there?

The 'I' is the body, the mind and maybe I am none of those.

Ok, well let's look very simply at one of those.
'I see'.
Is there an 'I' that sees this sentence on the screen?
If the answer is 'yes' then describe that 'I' to me - Tell me what it is as you experience it right now.

At the same time feel responsible for the mistakes and for the flaws of this mind and this body.

Well this is another we can begin to look at.
There is an 'I' that is responsible for mistakes of the body and mind.
Again, if this is true as you say, describe that 'I' to me - Tell me what it is - How does it appear in your experience?

Xain ♥

[kyprch]

Hi Xain,
Thanks a lot for your message.I read and read again all that is contained in the message and I felt I had difficulty in articulating it all together.I also felt confused.I felt I had two 'I' s.
It looks like one 'I' is able to observe the other 'I' . The one 'I' is able to punish the other for its mistakes.It expects it to be special.
There is an 'I' that looks at this sentence of the screen but who am I really? I feel lost, it all does not make sense at this point.I feel very harsh on me.I feel me or this 'I' is stupid and can not get it and put all this information together.
Yes there probably can be an 'I' letting go of another 'I' but am afraid of this.Who is going to pay for my mistakes?
There also seems to be an 'I' that observes the other 'I' disappearing.This feels liberating but at the same time very puzzling as you say.
My body is full of tingling sensations, muscles twitching and contracting , who am 'I' afterall?
I feel a schism in me.Two 'I' s at time living harmonically together , at other times fighting with each other and at times one 'I' observing the other 'I'.It feels crazy.
Thanks
Chris