Tying Up Loose Ends, Guide Please

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Laura68
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:48 pm

Tying Up Loose Ends, Guide Please

Postby Laura68 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:21 pm

Forums are brand new to me, so a bit of a learning curve. For now, my name is Laura and "I" am as ready as I'll ever be.Thank You

User avatar
smi
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:03 pm
Location: Slovenia

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends, Guide Please

Postby smi » Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:20 pm

Hello Laura,

My name is Milan and I can be your guide for this process.

Before we begin there are a few ground rules:
1. You agree to post at least once a day.
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to
3. Responses require your utmost honesty
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical
and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put
all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation
practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Please confirm all above and if you agree with our contract I would like to learn a little bit about you. If you could write few paragraphs about you, what do you expect to gain, are you afraid you will loose anything by this process, how will you know "this is it" and anything else you would like to say?

Kind regards
Milan

User avatar
Laura68
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:48 pm

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends, Guide Please

Postby Laura68 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:06 pm

Hi Milan, I agree to all the above, have spent considerable time with GG and all about the site and understand the ground rules. I have used the questions in the book for my own answers and been working as well with Ilona's 7 questions html. Thank you in advance for the time you are investing with me. L

User avatar
Laura68
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:48 pm

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends, Guide Please

Postby Laura68 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:17 pm

QUOTE: What do you expect to gain, are you afraid you will loose anything by this process, how will you know "this is it" and anything else you would like to say?

"My" gain, once and for all is absolute seeing-ness of truth, that there is no "I", just life life-ing itself. There are glimpses, glimpsing for some time now, just readiness, desire for complete, abiding realization.

The question of fear of "loosing", was enjoyed, so answering that first, a readiness to loose all thoughts, feelings, beliefs, that are believed to be remaining, to loose them so much they are set free.

Now, fear of "losing" something in this process which was likely the actual question...at this moment, some faint sensations, anxieties of unknown, losing the known. (As if it could be lost! As if it is anything of usefulness to be held onto!) Yet looking-ness behind that, results in quiet nothing, so much so that there is nothing more that could be said.

How will "I" know "this is it?" When seeing is absolutely, irrefutably, and abidingly clear, that "I" is only the core belief around which all sorts of thoughts, feelings, memories swirl suspended in infinite space. When freedom is so complete, that beliefs can be cast aside or embraced if desire for that happens, in the wink of an eye...

User avatar
smi
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:03 pm
Location: Slovenia

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends, Guide Please

Postby smi » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:49 am

Hi Laura,

Thanks for your answers. I can totally relate to your desire for complete, abiding realization. I’m not sure what exactly does that mean to you, but whatever it is I suggest you stay open for anything. In my experience seeing through the illusion of separate self can be much different than any expectation. At least it was for me. :)

Same goes for fear about losing something, especially losing all thoughts, feelings, beliefs, etc. Once the root belief of separate “I” is seen through all other beliefs, thoughts, feelings may begin to gradually fall away or not. And I would emphasize “or not”. Either way it is recommended not to be attached to any outcome.

Of course during the process some emotion may arise. There might be anxiety, fears or any other emotion. That’s quite normal and nothing to worry about.

Okay, so let’s just get “down to business”.

If I say that there is no separate self in real life at all and that never was, what comes up?

What thoughts and feelings come up? How does body react? What happens?

Please describe only what shows up for you in direct experience and as best you can avoid too much thinking and analyzing. Just simply look and report what happens.

Thanks and kind regards
Milan

User avatar
Laura68
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:48 pm

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends, Guide Please

Postby Laura68 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:10 am

Hi Milan,
If there is any additional explanation for how to use the quote feature, I have read the directions and tried to do what it shows but it seems to quote the whole thing without giving me a choice?

User avatar
smi
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:03 pm
Location: Slovenia

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends, Guide Please

Postby smi » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:22 pm

Hi Laura,

Yes quoting can be a bit tricky. They say there is also an issue with the board sometimes logging you off while composing a reply and thus you can loose all the work. Therefore it is best to compose your message in some other editor off-line and when ready simply paste your message to the board.

What I do is compose the whole message in Word then I come to the board, I login and go to our last post and press "Post Reply" at the the left side at the bottom. If you press "Quote" which is to the right of each post, you'll get a template with the whole post marked as quote, which is probably not what you'd like. So, after pressing "Post Reply" I paste the message from word, highlight bits of your text and press "quote" button on the ribbon. You will notice a [qu ote] text to be quoted [/qu ote] added (I had to add space between u and o to demonstrate, otherwise this line would be treated as a quote).
And this is example of a quote
By the way, you can always press "Preview" at the bottom to see how your message will look like and fix whatever needs to be fixed before hitting "Submit".

I hope this helps.

Kind regards
Milan

User avatar
Laura68
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:48 pm

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends, Guide Please

Postby Laura68 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:21 pm

Hi Milan,
Quote: I can totally relate to your desire for complete, abiding realization. I’m not sure what exactly does that mean to you, but whatever it is I suggest you stay open for anything.

Please ask if you are "not sure exactly what that means to you", clarity is desired here, I hope we don't have difficulty because of the way you and I use English. So I am answering below: Abiding=enduring.
Fear,uncertainty, doubt, arise over "staying open", there is no consistency in "me", it all comes and goes. But keeping this in mind as much as possible, that my experience may be very different than preconceived notions.

RE: "Quoting" intricacies, thanks I’ll give your suggestions a try. In the meantime I’ll use my own version just so I can keep the momentum of the conversation.

Quote: If I say there is no separate self in real life at all and never was, what comes up?

Me: Feeling: Tears well up, grief driven, want to wail but can’t.
Thought: What a waste it’s all been, this life – so much suffering for nothing at all. So much life force trapped in self-mind cycle and repetition
Feeling: Anger, despair
Body: Heartache, stomach knotted with tension (not just from this question now, for quite some time).
Feeling: Irritated, cranky, tired, struggle, self pity, resignation

User avatar
Laura68
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:48 pm

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends, Guide Please

Postby Laura68 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:47 pm

Feeling: Oh!!!! Horrid!!!
Thought: Just want this nightmare to stop.
Feeling: Pain

User avatar
smi
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:03 pm
Location: Slovenia

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends, Guide Please

Postby smi » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:38 pm

Hi Laura,
Please ask if you are "not sure exactly what that means to you", clarity is desired here, I hope we don't have difficulty because of the way you and I use English.
That is usually my line. :) Fear not, I will ask plenty of questions when needed. I’m not native English speaker and I’m fully aware that my usage of English can be sometimes imperfect especially using grammar correctly.

What I meant by saying “whatever that means to you” is just that. In my experience realization can mean different things to different people. At this time exact meaning of realization is not important at all.

What are we to explore together is that there is no separate self in reality to be found. If that is what some people call realization is entirely different question. Our aim together is that you will come to full clarity about this illusory self.
Fear,uncertainty, doubt, arise over "staying open", there is no consistency in "me", it all comes and goes. But keeping this in mind as much as possible, that my experience may be very different than preconceived notions.
Like I already mentioned emotions may arise during this process. There is nothing wrong with that. A good attitude for this inquiry is playful curiosity. And yes, it would be great if you kept in mind that your experience may be different than preconceived notions, just like you said above.
Quote: If I say there is no separate self in real life at all and never was, what comes up?
Me: Feeling: Tears well up, grief driven, want to wail but can’t.
Thought: What a waste it’s all been, this life – so much suffering for nothing at all. So much life force trapped in self-mind cycle and repetition
Feeling: Anger, despair
Body: Heartache, stomach knotted with tension (not just from this question now, for quite some time).
Feeling: Irritated, cranky, tired, struggle, self pity, resignation
Feeling: Oh!!!! Horrid!!!
Thought: Just want this nightmare to stop.
Feeling: Pain
We were just “probing the ground” so to speak. So there are emotions like anger, despair, tension in stomach, etc… That’s quite normal reaction. Whenever emotions arise like that, ask yourself what are emotions trying to protect? What needs protection? Against what?

I have another “probing” question. When you talk to people and use words like I, me and mine what do you actually mean by that? What are you referring to? What are those words pointing to in reality?

Please feel free to write as much as you feel and I would also recommend you write during inquiry itself and not later from memory. Writing can really help clear up your thoughts and seeing.

Kind regards
Milan

p.s. I could read your quotes just fine and it is okay to continue marking quotes that way.

User avatar
Laura68
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:48 pm

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends, Guide Please

Postby Laura68 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:41 am

Yes, I have already nosed around and am aware of your age and nationality, your time on LU, your postings etc… (Are you presently living in Sedona, or just liking the area and photo on your site), Your written English is way, way, better than my Slavic, (none). To be fair here, I’m 61, American, (English, Scottish, Italian, and Alsacian roots), living in NYC. I’m grateful you wrote back today, not knowing how this works as far as frequency goes. Ok, happy to chuck needing a meaning for realization, there’s enough to deal with.

YOU: Please feel free to write as much as you feel and I would also recommend you write during inquiry itself and not later from memory.
Me: I wanted to clear up this question I have right away. What I have written so far has been at my keyboard in immediate response to the questions when I have gotten to your note. I’m not even sure how I would be able to do it later from memory…but my question is, were you giving the recommendation in a general way, or was there something about what I already have written that gave you the feeling I was writing from memory?

YOU: Writing can really help clear up your thoughts and seeing.
Me: No problem there, writing is what I love best to do for the reasons you’ve stated. My very favorite kind happens to be conversational, it is absolutely the way I see things more clearly.

YOU: What are we to explore together is that there is no separate self in reality to be found. Our aim together is that you will come to full clarity about this illusory self.
Me: That is what I want and I I I I want it now!!! (kidding, but not)
Feeling: Extreme relief that full clarity about this illusory self will come. More tears.

YOU: A good attitude for this inquiry is playful curiosity.
Me: Playful curiosity has NEVER been part of my make up, doesn’t come easily, but I understand that I must get as close as possible for this purpose, don’t need to be drowning in what happens here, counterproductive. Laura is very intense, and she didn’t come here light and lively, I’m stating it to try to get it out of the way, ASAP.

YOU: We were just “probing the ground” so to speak. So there are emotions like anger, despair, tension in stomach, etc…That’s quite normal reaction.
Me: Here you were, innocently just “probing the ground”, so to speak…and you got both barrels of the shotgun from me! (Yes please let me know if I use expressions you don’t understand…in this case an attempt at humor. You know, getting into the spirit of that playful curiosity, light heartedness.)

YOU: Whenever emotions arise like that, ask yourself what are emotions trying to protect? What needs protection? Against what?
Me: The emotions are trying to protect a self, that a lifetime has been spent inadvertently cultivating, (whether I liked it or not, and mostly not), with all its warts, that can’t even be found! Though I still feel it’s there, still attached if only by a thread, wreaking havoc. Protecting something that is not much more than a source of ongoing misery, it’s all I’ve got. I still think it’s better than nothingness, (whatever that is), apparently. But then I don’t, I’m sick of it. What needs protection? Fear of change? The devil I know is better than the one I don’t? I can’t see anything here that’s worth keeping. Against what? I don’t know, how absurd is that! Just a bunch of words, representing just a bunch of thoughts/ feelings, and beliefs. Are we having fun yet? I’m playfully curious about this very heavy heart. Tying up loose ends…I should have put “tough cookie” on my topic line.

YOU: I have another “probing” question. When you talk to people and use words like I, me and mine what do you actually mean by that? What are you referring to? What are those words pointing to in reality?
Me: Probe away dear friend, help me poke this me-ness so full of holes until there’s no doubt left as to the impossibility of the separate self in reality. Using words like I, me, and mine, are no more than convenient contributions in the language stream, referring to a particular approximation of one being instead of another. They are highly suspect as to what they point, but handy as long as we are playing at believing that we are someones. “In reality”, the suspicion becomes more clear. Intellectually, I know that there are no separate selves. I want to feel that truth, though “I” probably can’t, Ha. Ha.

Most of all, I shall hold close to this weary heart tonight what you said at the start: "Our aim together is that you will come to full clarity about this illusory self." AMEN

User avatar
Laura68
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:48 pm

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends, Guide Please

Postby Laura68 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:55 am

YOU: Whenever emotions arise like that, ask yourself what are emotions trying to protect? What needs protection? Against what?
Me: Reading once again through todays transcript. I had one other response to these questions. What needs protection? I identify with a wounded “sense of self”, not sure I’ve looked at it quite that way before. The emotions, in their variety, are all saying “stay away from this, there is pain and fear here.” That wounded sense of self needs protection, against more pain and fear. It seems circular, because the self, thoughts, and emotions are composed of the same stuff. It’s all just thoughts and emotions. Hope that’s clear.

User avatar
smi
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:03 pm
Location: Slovenia

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends, Guide Please

Postby smi » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:54 pm

Hi Laura,
I’m grateful you wrote back today, not knowing how this works as far as frequency goes.
Wow, you sure like to keep yourself informed. :) It seems you know much more about me than I know about you. That’s why I would like to clarify that my questions at the moment are very generalized since all I know about you comes from what you write in this conversation. I will ask much more specific questions as our conversation continues. As far as frequency of our exchange goes it can be more than once a day if you wish so however I may not be able to sustain that tempo every single day. So let’s keep it to at least once a day to keep the momentum going.
Me: I wanted to clear up this question I have right away. What I have written so far has been at my keyboard in immediate response to the questions when I have gotten to your note. I’m not even sure how I would be able to do it later from memory…but my question is, were you giving the recommendation in a general way, or was there something about what I already have written that gave you the feeling I was writing from memory?
Yes, recommendations were given in very general way. That goes for all other concerns you raised as well. Like I already mentioned, at the moment I know very little, almost nothing about you and how you think and feel and how you function in the world so I’m just asking and making statements in very generalized way. No need to worry if I say something that doesn’t apply to you. I’ll get much more focused with questions about what matters very soon.
Me: Here you were, innocently just “probing the ground”, so to speak…and you got both barrels of the shotgun from me! (Yes please let me know if I use expressions you don’t understand…in this case an attempt at humor. You know, getting into the spirit of that playful curiosity, light heartedness.)
:)
Me: The emotions are trying to protect a self, that a lifetime has been spent inadvertently cultivating, (whether I liked it or not, and mostly not), with all its warts, that can’t even be found! Though I still feel it’s there, still attached if only by a thread, wreaking havoc. Protecting something that is not much more than a source of ongoing misery, it’s all I’ve got.
Okay, I’ll start poking a little bit more. So you can’t find self but still feel it’s there? So, is self a feeling? And what do you mean by “it’s there, still attached if only by a thread”? Where is there (location wise)? Attached by a thread to what? I know it is only a figure of speech, but look into it literally. What does this figure of speech actually represent?
Against what? I don’t know, how absurd is that! Just a bunch of words, representing just a bunch of thoughts/ feelings, and beliefs.
Yes, it is absurd. :) But in my experience as you see, as you really see, how absurd it is things loosen up. Emotions drop away, heaviness drops away, thinking about the topic stops and there is much more space and freedom. Did something similar happen to you as you looked into it?
Are we having fun yet? I’m playfully curious about this very heavy heart. Tying up loose ends…I should have put “tough cookie” on my topic line.
Yes, I’m having fun. I hope you do too.
Me: Using words like I, me, and mine, are no more than convenient contributions in the language stream, referring to a particular approximation of one being instead of another. They are highly suspect as to what they point, but handy as long as we are playing at believing that we are someones. “In reality”, the suspicion becomes more clear. Intellectually, I know that there are no separate selves. I want to feel that truth, though “I” probably can’t, Ha. Ha.

Thanks. What happens when you use only direct experience with this question about what does “I” refer to? What I mean is simply consider only your senses (touching, hearing, seeing,…) and not thinking. Does that “I” have a shape, size, location, color? Does it represent anything in reality?
Me: What needs protection? I identify with a wounded “sense of self”, not sure I’ve looked at it quite that way before. The emotions, in their variety, are all saying “stay away from this, there is pain and fear here.” That wounded sense of self needs protection, against more pain and fear. It seems circular, because the self, thoughts, and emotions are composed of the same stuff. It’s all just thoughts and emotions. Hope that’s clear.
Yes, there probably is an image or sense of self, but is that you? Are you that sense? Does that sense or image exist in reality? And yes, it is all just thoughts and emotions looping back to itself - some sort of strange loop, so to speak. The question is, is there even a room for you in this strange loop of thoughts and emotions? Is there a thinker? Is there a “feeler” or “emoter”?

Kind regards
Milan

User avatar
Laura68
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:48 pm

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends, Guide Please

Postby Laura68 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:40 pm

YOU: Wow, you sure like to keep yourself informed. :) It seems you know much more about me than I know about you.
Me: It’s not rocket science, just the little bit of information gleaned from the site. I take it that you are in Slovenia, not Sedona. I guess the time difference doesn’t matter, although I wish we were in the same time zone, not important. The momentum however is very important. I read the Jed Mckenna material for the first time in 2007 and it was definitely altering for me but then I could never understand the HOW to question everything. Every effort I made, just left me blank. Confusion about HOW to look. Here I am 6 years later, frustrated, angry, despairing and stuck. So when I found LU and saw its direct connection to Jed, I thought Hallelujah, at last, clarity about the process and someone to help me understand how the looking is done.

YOU: So you can’t find self but still feel it’s there? So, is self a feeling? And what do you mean by “it’s there, still attached if only by a thread”? Where is there (location wise)? Attached by a thread to what?
Me: Is self a feeling? Yes, I guess I can find a self—but define it only as a collection as memories, which break down into charged—highly charged emotions (that’s the feeling of it) and thoughts. Strong emotions, that drag me down, that spawn thoughts that perpetuate the emotions, that perpetuate the thoughts and so on. Location: All over me like the flu, but also threaded/attached at the heart / solar plexus.

YOU: I know it is only a figure of speech, but look into it literally. What does this figure of speech actually represent?
Me: The figure of speech points to self that might be easily cast off. Sometimes I think I’m on the brink of seeing behind it, that I have a flash of its lack of reality. So I use the expression thread to acknowledge that the identification is getting thinner.

YOU: (RE: the questions about “What needs protection, Against what?”)
But in my experience as you see, as you really see how absurd it is, things loosen up. Emotions drop away, heaviness drops away, thinking about the topic stops and there is much more space and freedom. Did something similar happen to you as you looked into it?

Me: This I HAVE to answer more from memory because it was yesterday. I think I felt a momentary amusement when I tried to find what it was protecting against, it seems I do find the absurd amusing. So yes, for that brief moment I dropped heaviness. I can’t say that I felt more space, freedom, thinking stopping, loosening…it went by too fast for noticing, but I suppose it was there.

YOU: What happens when you use only direct experience with this question about what does “I” refer to? What I mean is simply consider only your senses (touching, hearing, seeing,…) and not thinking. Does that “I” have a shape, size, location, color? Does it represent anything in reality?
Me: Oh! I really liked my first answer, but I see you aren’t going to let me get away with that! Yes, I am enjoying this with you too. It’s keeping me from hurling myself off a cliff, which is why I probably am still in the struggle…
I had to return to the article on Direct Experience to view the whole list there, which includes feelings (kinesthetic and tactile). Now I’m not sure if the following sentence conforms to this. What does the “I” refer to? Strong emotions, that drag me down, that spawn thoughts that perpetuate the emotions, that perpetuate the thoughts and so on. I can’t see it, I think I can feel it, I “hear” the incessant mind chatter. I can’t touch, taste, or smell it.

YOU: Does that “I” have a shape, size, location, color? Does it represent anything in reality?
Me: Externally, nothing in reality. Internally, feelings of shape and location arise and subside depending on thoughts / emotions.

YOU: Yes, there probably is an image or sense of self, but is that you? Are you that sense? Does that sense or image exist in reality? And yes, it is all just thoughts and emotions looping back to itself - some sort of strange loop, so to speak. The question is, is there even a room for you in this strange loop of thoughts and emotions? Is there a thinker? Is there a “feeler” or “emoter”?
Me: Fear is here, I’m having trouble Direct Experiencing a response. I’m leaving for the rest of the day but may try again to approach these tonight, if you should read this before I have answered them, please make this the first item on your next note. I don’t want to miss this. You have mirrored back everything I’ve said, so the answer should be clearly no, but I’m not feeling it.

User avatar
Laura68
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:48 pm

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends, Guide Please

Postby Laura68 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:34 am

Sept 18, 2013
YOU: Yes, there probably is an image or sense of self, but is that you? Are you that sense? Does that sense or image exist in reality? And yes, it is all just thoughts and emotions looping back to itself - some sort of strange loop, so to speak. The question is, is there even a room for you in this strange loop of thoughts and emotions? Is there a thinker? Is there a “feeler” or “emoter”?
Me: You have mirrored back everything I’ve said, so the answer should be clearly no. Now that I’ve had about 12 hours to integrate these questions, this is about reality, can these qualities be seen, tasted, smelled, are they sitting across the room from me…clearly no. I trust you will catch it if I’m missing something here


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests