Thread for Louie

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Hannah B-T
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Thread for Louie

Postby Hannah B-T » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:46 pm

Hi Louie, we can start here.

First the housekeeping. Could you confirm you have read the post and disclaimer here:

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... f=16&t=221
And have no questions about that.

I suggest writing replies in word or notepad and then cutting and pasting them here as sometimes this forum can log you out suddenly!

Please take a look at how to use the quote function at the top of the guiding forum as well, it's very useful.

and that you are happy to agree to these ground rules:
1- That you post with 100% honesty. No censoring, no telling me what you think i want to hear or you think is the 'right' answers, always striving to answer from your own direct experience right now, rather than previous teachings that you have heard or read.

2-To aid that, that you suspend other reading/watching of spiritual content whilst we do this dialogue. Any core practices of meditation etc you have that's fine to continue them.

3-That you try whenever possible to post every day, unless we let each other know why that's not possible, or if we mutually agree on a different timescale. Momentum is key to this process.

If that's ok, could you start by telling me a bit about why you are here on LU, any experience of anatta/ no seperate self you feel may have occurred already, and also any expectations or fears that come up for you about engaging with this process. Really lay these out so we can take a good look at them together.

xx
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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louie
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Re: Thread for Louie

Postby louie » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:14 pm

Hello Hannah, Thanks I've found your post. I'll go back and read as you suggest and then get back to you. x Louie

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louie
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Re: Thread for Louie

Postby louie » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:41 pm

Dear Hannah, I was introduced to this site by Satyapala, who then suggested you as my guide. I have been meditating for about 20years - Satyapala first taught me. I have looked for 'self' and on an intellectual level I know that there is no-one there. Where I find that most difficult is in terms of making choices - who chooses?

But on an emotional level I keep 'selfing'. That feels painful. Very occasionally I feel an openess and freedom, but much of the time I feel a tightness which separates me from others, often with fear. Also when things are going well, there is a moment of freedom followed by a sensation around the throat and jaw, and thoughts of 'I am doing well'! So there is a flipflopping from aversion to craving and back centred around an emotional sense of a me. Freedom from that is important. On one level it doesn't seem difficult, more relaxing into ';whatis'. I am looking for help to take the process further.

Thankyou for your help, xx Louie

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louie
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Re: Thread for Louie

Postby louie » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:43 pm

PS I formally agree with the ground rules. I am not very computer literate, but hope I can communicate ok with you. x Louie

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Thread for Louie

Postby Hannah B-T » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:23 pm

Great thanks for that- lets dive straight in then...

What comes up when it is read-

there is absolutely no 'you' in any way shape or form, there never has been a 'you', nor will there ever be.

Please list all the thoughts,emotions and sensations that come up

X
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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louie
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Re: Thread for Louie

Postby louie » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:47 pm

LU 23 sept

Dear Hannah.thankyou for your prompt reply and question:


The response is an open tender feeling in the lower abdomen. A sense of relief. openness in the throat. tearfulness Yes.


these last few weeks there has been a recurring visual image of the ending of the Wizard of Oz. When theygo behind the vast structure and find that the booming 'wizard' is just a foolish old man with a megaphone. It's as though that is my current feeling about 'self' - that it is a sham.

However there is a part of 'me' - 'conceit', that wants to be responsible for me making choices, and setting up a judgement between 'me' and 'others', especially when I think I have made good choices. This is the part that needs to go!
xx Louie

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Thread for Louie

Postby Hannah B-T » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:35 am

That metaphor is fun, but they still found the little man controlling the levers lol! That's what we will be looking for in this process...

Choice/control does seem to be the major sticking point area so let's focus straight down on that with some exercises.

When you start to feel thirsty I want you to get out 2 beverages you like and place them out. Sit in front of them and open up/get very still.
In your direct experience can you find me and report-

1- an exact choicepoint moment and how that is experienced
and/or
2- A 'chooser' that makes the decision happen and what that is experienced as (shape, size, location, qualities)

feel free to do the same with any other apparent choices made throughout the day and report what happened/ what you discovered

xx
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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louie
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Re: Thread for Louie

Postby louie » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:51 am

Thanks - I'll get back when I've tried a few things x

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louie
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Re: Thread for Louie

Postby louie » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:18 am

Hello Dear Hannah, watching choices and how they happen - sometimes action is happening before conscious awareness of choice - I'm up off the sofa towards the kitchen, before the thoughts/feelings around that have come into awareness.

Sometimes, as in the drinks choice, feelings arise round the belly and the throat indicating preference at this moment.

Much of yesterday was taken up with writing a tricky email to my sister who is in conflict with another sister. It seems that she is suffering from feelings of isolation, and then her thoughts are telling a story that blames my other sister - to me her story is untrue. She has expressed all this in an email to all 6 of my sibs, so a response is called for.

Watching the feelings and choices as they arise - there is fear of making things worse - also wanting to defend my other sister who is deeply upset. There are layers of habit overlaid with recent conditioning through leading Breathworks courses. Conditions for writing appropriately are now better than they were - it is not I who is better! Seeing this is liberating. There have been fortunate conditions. If there was an I, how could these changes happen? Writing in this way frees me from the little voice that wants to feel superior, the me voice! The tight closing voice - let it go! xx Louie

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Thread for Louie

Postby Hannah B-T » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:42 am

sometimes action is happening before conscious awareness of choice - I'm up off the sofa towards the kitchen, before the thoughts/feelings around that have come into awareness.
So what does that say about the role of concious thought in making choices?
What about complex activities? Do you drive or ride a bike? Is thought needed for those activities?
Sometimes, as in the drinks choice, feelings arise round the belly and the throat indicating preference at this moment.
So is it true that these sensations make the choice happen? Is there any evidence for that in your direct experience? Are they always present when an apparent choice occurs? - from what you are saying, no. So are they even relevant to that choice process?
All i can conclude from what you say is-
'feelings arose in the belly and throat area around the time of the choice'
when? just before? just after? exactly at the same moment?
You have to get really microscopic with this.
Let me know what else you find out.
Much of yesterday was taken up with writing a tricky email to my sister who is in conflict with another sister. It seems that she is suffering from feelings of isolation, and then her thoughts are telling a story that blames my other sister - to me her story is untrue. She has expressed all this in an email to all 6 of my sibs, so a response is called for.

Watching the feelings and choices as they arise - there is fear of making things worse - also wanting to defend my other sister who is deeply upset. There are layers of habit overlaid with recent conditioning through leading Breathworks courses. Conditions for writing appropriately are now better than they were - it is not I who is better! Seeing this is liberating. There have been fortunate conditions. If there was an I, how could these changes happen? Writing in this way frees me from the little voice that wants to feel superior, the me voice! The tight closing voice - let it go! xx Louie
ok i'm going to get a little stark here. Hope you can cope with this. This process is quite different to a lot of Triratna contexts of 'reporting in' etc.
There is a lot of 'story' in this paragraph i.e thought content about 'Louie', who she is what she does and what that means etc.
This stuff, for the purpose of this inquiry is 'indirect experience' , and we are focussing strongly here away from that and onto 'direct experience' which is:
Sensory experience and the experiencing of thought as opposed to the content of thought

Is that distinction clear to you from meditation practice etc? If not we will need to look at that in detail.

xx
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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louie
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Re: Thread for Louie

Postby louie » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:03 pm

dear Hannah, thanks for being challenging.

Q1 Conscious thought is sometimes involved in choice sometimes not

Q2 Will do more investigation and report back.

Q3 Do you mean just 'thought is happening' or noting or labelling as in 'planning' remembering' etc?

xx Louie

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Thread for Louie

Postby Hannah B-T » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:42 pm

Conscious thought is sometimes involved in choice sometimes not
'involved'...interestingly vague word there ;) could mean to me either 'arises at same time as' 'controls' or 'haven't got a clue how this works'
Which ballpark are we in here?
Do you mean just 'thought is happening' or noting or labelling as in 'planning' remembering' etc?
Thought is happening right? Noting strips back the content drastically, but i'm not asking you to do that, just get a bit less interested in the content so there is space for the rest of experience to be percieved as well.
So, let's paint a picture here. You are sitting in meditation. Thoughts arise and pass through awareness like clouds in the sky....they are observed as a balanced and equal part of the total experience, along with sensations, sounds, sights smells, tastes etc. The content is secondary or even irrelevant...
Compare this to
you are in the middle of writing that intensely personal email you talked about... and this is what i need to say and i need to say it like this so she understands how important this is to me and why doesn't she understand me....

It's like the difference between sitting watching a movie and knowing it's a movie, but being quite calm and just enjoying the show, also hearing the kettle boil, your partner doing work in the next room etc... or being so engrossed in the content/plot/storyline of the movie it is totally real, to the point when the scary bit happens, you scream your head off... :)

Is that any clearer? For inquiry to be effective, it really can't happen when the second option is going on in my experience. The first one therefore has to be recongised off the cushion and in the other 23 hours a day whenever possible.

xx
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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louie
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Re: Thread for Louie

Postby louie » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:10 am

Hello Thanks for both helpful comments. Am having an energy crash, where brain/mind even more fuzzy than usual, so am sorry will wait for it to pass with rest and get back to you - usually 2-3 days. Will work as you suggest. xx Louie

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Thread for Louie

Postby Hannah B-T » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:19 am

ok thanks for letting me know.

Just a couple of questions to ask, it may actually be easier to look at these with the 'fuzzy mind', i know that sounds strange, but go with me...

what does the word 'mind' point to in your direct experience?

Where do thoughts come from?

Where do they go to?

Are you the thinker of your thoughts?

Rest well
xx
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Thread for Louie

Postby Hannah B-T » Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:24 pm

How are things going?

x
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)


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