Looking for help to find the needle in the haystack

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Lumire
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Looking for help to find the needle in the haystack

Postby Lumire » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:30 pm

Hi,

I'm in search of a guide who's willing and able to give me a final push into the void. While I'm open to working with anyone who is prepared to help, I would prefer to work with someone in their thirties or older.

My spiritual journey goes a little like this, as a young boy I've always had a sense of been connected to something greater than me and took a keen interest in reading esoteric/spiritual books.
During my young adult years I started meditating to spiritual music and learning new age ideas, this continued on more or less till my 34th year (my current age), where there was a deep yearning to find the truth.

In the previous two years, I had been listening to Eckhart Tolle's teachings, from the start of this year I also been watching and listening to a lot of satsangs from Mooji and Adyashanti. I've had a few glimpses into that still state of awareness in the last couple of months.

My thinking happens visually in pictures and I'm also empathic, so when I chat with people I mostly remember the images pop that into my mind and also the emotional feeling of what is been said.
I'm usually a man of little words, despite all this rambling on, so I like to keep things short and sweet.

Looking forward to working with whomever chooses to accept this challenge.

Warmest Blessings,
Lumire

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Paulo
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Re: Looking for help to find the needle in the haystack

Postby Paulo » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:14 pm

Hello Lumire, my name is Paulo, it's great to have you here and it would be a pleasure to guide you.

A few ground rules -

1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from personal experience only.
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
5. Read the FAQ page to get an idea of what we do here - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_FAQ.html
6. Learn how to use the quote function when responded to messages - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

If you are happy to agree to the above, let me know and we can begin.

Paulo :-)

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Lumire
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Re: Looking for help to find the needle in the haystack

Postby Lumire » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:31 am

Hi Paulo,

Thank you for the welcome and the offer to guide me. I've read the web pages you've mentioned and hopefully the quote function is used correctly below:
Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.
Yes, I understand your role in this process and I'm willing to give it my all.
If you are happy to agree to the above, let me know and we can begin.
I'm more than happy to follow all the ground rules listed and I'm ready to begin.

Have a wonderful day and let's go for gold ;-)

Blessings,
Lumire

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Paulo
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Re: Looking for help to find the needle in the haystack

Postby Paulo » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:03 pm

Hi Lumire, welcome on board. Indeed, let's go!!!

What does the 'I' refer to in your experience?
(No philosophy or theories on this one Lumire - tell it as it is - nice and direct).

What comes up for you (thoughts/feelings/sensations) if I tell you there is no you in reality, and never was?
(Look to your experience in the moment here)

What do you expect from this process?

Paulo :)

(It's helpful when responding to paste the question into your reply too - easier to keep focused that way).

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Lumire
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Re: Looking for help to find the needle in the haystack

Postby Lumire » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:58 am

Hi Paulo,

Below are the answers to the questions you asked me:
What does the 'I' refer to in your experience?
The “I” or ego in my observations appears to be, identifying with a repetitive pattern of thinking, believing that those thoughts are really me.
What comes up for you (thoughts/feelings/sensations) if I tell you there is no you in reality, and never was?
The “I” feels fearful and the body feels a little tense, but there is a deeper “Awareness” that can just simply watch this.
What do you expect from this process?
To discover the truth of who I am.


Many thanks, Lumire.

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Paulo
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Re: Looking for help to find the needle in the haystack

Postby Paulo » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:53 am

Hi Lumire, thanks for your response,
What does the 'I' refer to in your experience?
The “I” or ego in my observations appears to be, identifying with a repetitive pattern of thinking, believing that those thoughts are really me.
I'm going to be picky here, so I need you to look at the question once again. It asks 'what' DOES 'I' refer to, not what it APPEARS to be, or what it's BELIEVED to be. What's in front of you now - a computer. If there is an 'I' then saying what it is should be as simple as that, right?
What comes up for you (thoughts/feelings/sensations) if I tell you there is no you in reality, and never was?
The “I” feels fearful and the body feels a little tense, but there is a deeper “Awareness” that can just simply watch this.
Let us use direct experience to teach us about fear - you may wish to take a quiet moment alone to look at this one – Close your eyes and think of what it is that’s currently activating fear for you. It doesn’t have to be a ‘thing’ or a ‘person’, just whatever caused the reaction you shared in the response above.

Allow any fear that arises to just be there. Notice where you experience fear in the body – watch it, study it. Let it be there for as long as it’s there.

Share what you experienced.

Paulo.

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Lumire
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Re: Looking for help to find the needle in the haystack

Postby Lumire » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:48 pm

Hello Paulo,

Okay let's give that question a second go :]
I'm going to be picky here, so I need you to look at the question once again. It asks 'what' DOES 'I' refer to, not what it APPEARS to be, or what it's BELIEVED to be. What's in front of you now - a computer. If there is an 'I' then saying what it is should be as simple as that, right?
Sitting with this a little while; truthfully in my experience the “I” refers to a thought. There is just awarenesses and being aware of the “I” thought. Can't really say any more about this than that.
Let us use direct experience to teach us about fear - you may wish to take a quiet moment alone to look at this one – Close your eyes and think of what it is that’s currently activating fear for you. It doesn’t have to be a ‘thing’ or a ‘person’, just whatever caused the reaction you shared in the response above.

Allow any fear that arises to just be there. Notice where you experience fear in the body – watch it, study it. Let it be there for as long as it’s there.

Share what you experienced.
The fear experienced was much less in strength than before, the location of it was in the chest. At first it seemed to cause some tension then after a while a kind of a warm and tingly sensation was felt in that area. The fear was caused by the “I” thought being afraid of it's own death, which in turn caused more thoughts and feelings to come up and cause a reaction in the body.

Simply being aware of that experience created a space, to just be okay with what was happening and to not be identified with the thoughts and feelings that were arising, which then eventually allowed them to dissipate.


Thanks for this interesting exercise Paulo.

Kindest regards, Lumire.

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Re: Looking for help to find the needle in the haystack

Postby Paulo » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:17 pm

Hi Lumire,
Thanks for this interesting exercise Paulo.
I'm glad you liked it - plenty more to come. In my experience it's only by testing beliefs with a practical exercise that reveals their validity ... or not :)
truthfully in my experience the “I” refers to a thought. There is just awarenesses and being aware of the “I” thought. Can't really say any more about this than that.
Great, that's more like it. Remember, reality doesn't need beliefs, theories, or philosophies, it simply is what IS. It's a very simple, ordinary thing really. We will have a closer look at 'I' as a thought in the exercise below.
The fear was caused by the “I” thought being afraid of it's own death, which in turn caused more thoughts and feelings to come up and cause a reaction in the body.
In my experience, this fear is a perfectly normal reaction to the belief that 'I' will end, or disappear. It's an attempt by the mind/body (or whatever term you care to use) to protect or preserve what it believes itself to be.

This little exercise demonstrates how the mind mistakes the imaginary character 'I' in thought for a real being, and tries to protect it. It's what we might call the 'jump test'.

Step 1: Stand in a room where you have some quiet and some space
Step 2: Close your eyes and imagine as vividly as you can that you are standing on the roof of a tall building. Feel the wind around you, hear the traffic and noise of the street below, check if it's night or day, have a look around and note what you can see - engage as many senses in the imaginary experience as you can.
Step 3: In your imagination walk to the edge of the building - look at how far the street is below, see the traffic and people if there are any, see your feet on the edge.
Step 4: Both in your imagination and with the physical body take a step forward over the edge.

Observe how the body reacts, observe how the imaginary characters falls - did you reach the bottom, landing on the ground?

Try that exercise again until you can successfully fall and land.

The laws of physics don't apply to the imagination - why do you think people find it so difficult to fall to the bottom?

Have fun with that one, Paulo.

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Lumire
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Re: Looking for help to find the needle in the haystack

Postby Lumire » Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:35 am

Hi Paulo,

That was another great exercise, the visual nature of this made it very easy to follow.
Observe how the body reacts, observe how the imaginary characters falls - did you reach the bottom, landing on the ground?

Try that exercise again until you can successfully fall and land.
Went through the exercise a few times and here's what was experienced:

While standing on the edge of the building, there was some fear in body as to what might happen if “I” fell off the roof. Stepping off and beginning to fall caused more fear to arise, as the falling was happening the “I” was screaming “Aaahhh!”.

Feeling the wind gushing over the body, a sense of peace came up inside. As the falling continued and just before hitting the ground, a final fear showed up, the fear of the end of “me”.

Then splat!!!, and all there was left was stillness and the awareness of it.
The laws of physics don't apply to the imagination - why do you think people find it so difficult to fall to the bottom?
People might have a hard time with this, since hitting the ground would mean the death of the “I” even though it is a thought, identifying with it makes the experience seem like it is actually real.


Blessings :-), Lumire.

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Paulo
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Re: Looking for help to find the needle in the haystack

Postby Paulo » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:57 am

Hi Lumire,
That was another great exercise, the visual nature of this made it very easy to follow.
Yes, I thought you might like that one :)
People might have a hard time with this, since hitting the ground would mean the death of the “I” even though it is a thought, identifying with it makes the experience seem like it is actually real.
As you saw with that little exercise hitting the ground didn't result in the death of the 'I', and there is really nothing to fear. Repeating that exercise will give you confidence in letting go, and seeing the 'I' for what it is - just an imaginary character in a story.

[A variation on that exercise is to imagine standing on a beach and walking straight into the ocean. See if you can get completely submerged, and observe the reaction. ]

A key point here is being able to distinguish between what's actually happening in reality (what we call Direct Experience, or DE), and what's imaginary or an illusion. It may be useful to look at Neil's short article on DE here - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html

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For the next few posts we will look at the elements of direct experience more closely.

Let's look at THOUGHTS in a little more detail today -

Think of a car.

Share your experience of what happens when you think of a car in as much detail as you can.

How did the thought arrive? Was there a Lumire there choosing the particular car that appeared in thought, it's colour, size, etc?

How did that particular car appear from all the possible cars that could have appeared?


Paulo.

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Lumire
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Re: Looking for help to find the needle in the haystack

Postby Lumire » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:01 pm

Hello Paulo,
As you saw with that little exercise hitting the ground didn't result in the death of the 'I', and there is really nothing to fear. Repeating that exercise will give you confidence in letting go, and seeing the 'I' for what it is - just an imaginary character in a story.

[A variation on that exercise is to imagine standing on a beach and walking straight into the ocean. See if you can get completely submerged, and observe the reaction. ]
Just tried the beach exercise you mentioned, but found it too relaxing. Maybe this is because I enjoy being around water ;-)

But I'll continue to work with the “jump test” exercise as it brings up things to be seen.
A key point here is being able to distinguish between what's actually happening in reality (what we call Direct Experience, or DE), and what's imaginary or an illusion. It may be useful to look at Neil's short article on DE here - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html
The funny thing is, there seems to be some difficulty with the reading of anything during the last few weeks, whether it is an article, a book or whatnot. An intense still awareness arises and thoughts appear in the background of this. Because of this when reading the article you linked you, not much is remembered after finishing it. Perhaps I'll have to give it another go at a later time.
Think of a car.

Share your experience of what happens when you think of a car in as much detail as you can.
A picture of a red Mini with black and white sport stripes is seen as a mental image in the form of a thought.
How did the thought arrive? Was there a Lumire there choosing the particular car that appeared in thought, it's colour, size, etc?
The thought was trigged by the words: “Think of a car”. There was no “Lumire” involved in the choosing of what appeared, it just happened.
How did that particular car appear from all the possible cars that could have appeared?
That was just what appeared in that moment.


Warm Blessings, Lumire.

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Paulo
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Re: Looking for help to find the needle in the haystack

Postby Paulo » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:21 pm

Thanks Lumire,
Because of this when reading the article you linked you, not much is remembered after finishing it. Perhaps I'll have to give it another go at a later time.
That's fine, at least you know where it is as a reference. I wanted to bring it to your attention, as it's a nice introduction to Direct Experience, as some people aren't familiar with it.
The thought was trigged by the words: “Think of a car”. There was no “Lumire” involved in the choosing of what appeared, it just happened.
Nice observation Lumire, you can see from that experience that thoughts appear as reactions to stimuli (in this case words on a page), and also in reaction to other thoughts (believed to be real). It is all automatic, and as you see, there's no seperate entity called 'I' there choosing a particular car from a selection of cars.

In my own experience, thoughts arise automatically, often in ‘chains of association’, one thought triggering another, triggering another, and so on. There’s no ‘me’ there, separate from thought, running the show.

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Next we will explore another element of Direct Experience - FEELINGS/EMOTIONS –

Think of something that made you happy.

Is there a Lumire there making you feel sad, or creating that emotion?

Did the experience of sadness you’ve just had last, or did you begin feeling something else after some time?

How did this change happen, did you choose another thought to make the sadness go away?


Keep up the good work Lumire, Paulo :-)

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Lumire
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Re: Looking for help to find the needle in the haystack

Postby Lumire » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:47 am

Hi Paulo,
In my own experience, thoughts arise automatically, often in ‘chains of association’, one thought triggering another, triggering another, and so on. There’s no ‘me’ there, separate from thought, running the show.
That's quite a good description of what happens with thinking.
Think of something that made you happy.
Seeing a double rainbow in the sky last week caused feelings of joy and happiness to arise within.
Is there a Lumire there making you feel sad, or creating that emotion?
There is no “Lumire” creating any emotion, again it just happens.
Did the experience of sadness you’ve just had last, or did you begin feeling something else after some time?
Feelings come and go, including the experience of sadness, and yes after a while another another feeling occurs.
How did this change happen, did you choose another thought to make the sadness go away?
Thoughts can cause and effect feelings and it works the other way around as well, but there is no real choosing going on, the changes are simply happening.

Thanks for all your help and support Paulo, it's much appreciated :-)


Blessings, Lumire.

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Paulo
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Re: Looking for help to find the needle in the haystack

Postby Paulo » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:21 pm

Thanks for all your help and support Paulo, it's much appreciated :-)
It's my pleasure to guide you a little on your journey, you seem to be getting along just fine :)
Thoughts can cause and effect feelings and it works the other way around as well, but there is no real choosing going on, the changes are simply happening.
Very well observed. In my experience too thoughts and feelings can 'trigger' each other, and go off in all kinds of interesting directions.


Today we look at the PHYSICAL in more detail –

Observe your movement in the moment.

The body moves, but is there a Lumire here making this movement occur?

How is it that all those muscles and joints work so perfectly to enable you to type on a keyboard with such precision?

If you tried to grow your hair longer by sheer force of will, could you? What are the implications of this?


That last one is just for fun, but consider it, and let me know if you needed an emergency haircut :-)

Paulo :)

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Lumire
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Re: Looking for help to find the needle in the haystack

Postby Lumire » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:59 am

Hi Paulo,

Thanks for the kind words :-)
Observe your movement in the moment.

The body moves, but is there a Lumire here making this movement occur?
The body does not need “Lumire” in order to move, it simply and naturally occurs when required.
How is it that all those muscles and joints work so perfectly to enable you to type on a keyboard with such precision?
They just work automatically, bending and flexing in whatever way needed to type, no input from the “I” is necessary.
If you tried to grow your hair longer by sheer force of will, could you? What are the implications of this?

That last one is just for fun, but consider it, and let me know if you needed an emergency haircut :-)
No this wouldn't be possible and the implications of this is that there is no “I” in control of life.

Coincidently in the real world I do need to get a haircut, it's starting to look a bit shabby ;-)


Peaceful Blessings, Lumire.


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