I would like a guide please

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
TeresaC
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:03 pm

I would like a guide please

Postby TeresaC » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:41 pm

I've been reflecting seriously on no self for about a year now, not sure where I'm at with it so would welcome a chance to look with the guidance of someone who's done it. I've been a Buddhist for over 20 years.

User avatar
kvotski
Posts: 1148
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:31 am

Re: I would like a guide please

Postby kvotski » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:51 pm

Hi,

My name is Sunil. I am a guide and would be happy to help.

Please review the rules and our agreement and let me know if you wish to proceed.

User avatar
TeresaC
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:03 pm

Re: I would like a guide please

Postby TeresaC » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:16 pm

Hi Sunil,

Thank you for offering to help. I've reread the rules etc and would like to proceed.

Teresa

User avatar
kvotski
Posts: 1148
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:31 am

Re: I would like a guide please

Postby kvotski » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:13 am

Hi Teresa,

Excellent.

Let us begin by you telling me where do you think you are at in your search? What motivates you to do this and what are your expectations from this process?

Next please detail for me what comes up when you hear our main mantra here and that is there is no self, never was and the separate self is all but an illusion?

Take your time.

Love.

User avatar
kvotski
Posts: 1148
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:31 am

Re: I would like a guide please

Postby kvotski » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:50 pm

Teresa,

Please read this important introduction to direct experience.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html

We use this a guiding tool.

User avatar
TeresaC
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:03 pm

Re: I would like a guide please

Postby TeresaC » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:11 pm

Hi Sunil

I tried to send a quick response earlier this evening, but it wouldn't let me post from my phone. I'm at my daughters (a 5 hours drive which took the afternoon) & we've been out for her 38th birthday meal. I started to write the reply to your questions this morning, & will finish it this evening before I go to bed - a couple of hours time. There seem to be quite a few things to include, but it's interesting writing them down in one place.

I'll read the document you've sent as well.

Thanks
Teresa x

User avatar
kvotski
Posts: 1148
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:31 am

Re: I would like a guide please

Postby kvotski » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:32 pm

Hi Teresa,

Thanks for letting me know.

User avatar
TeresaC
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:03 pm

Re: I would like a guide please

Postby TeresaC » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:31 pm

Hi Sunil,

Here are the answers to the questions.

"Let us begin by you telling me where do you think you are at in your search? What motivates you to do this and what are your expectations from this process?"

I think this journey started after my first husband left me nearly 30 years ago, and my world turned upside down – a very real experience of impermanence. This started a journey of discovering who I am, during which I met Buddhism about 22 years ago. I came across Daniel Ingram’s book a couple of years ago & read the first few chapters.

The journey into no self began about a year ago when my friend / mentor told that I seemed to have a lot of Aspergers traits. I went home and did some research that evening finding among other things how women with Aspergers use their intelligence to learn how to fit into the normal world. I woke up in the morning & realized I didn’t know who I was at all.

All I knew was that all I was was learnings, what I had learnt throughout my life and there was nothing solid to me, just learnings & process. Very unsettling, I rang my friend / mentor & she got me to look out of the window at the world & feel my body. I settled down, & it all became OK. I didn’t lose - & still have - that sense of being just process and learnings, but how I live in the world carried on and it became OK.

Since then I’ve been looking at things that seemed real & to be me, & think all the ones I’ve found have become process or stories. I found that strong emotions were hard to see as not me, if I was in anger or love then who was in that – it felt like me, but then I realized that it was all a result of conditions.

I’ve read about half the Gateless Gatecrashers book and found it really helpful and reflection provoking. I also have several friends who have been through the gate.

It seems that a lot of it hinges round the words I use to describe feelings, sensations, thoughts etc. If I take time to look at them, and don’t just use the words of 65 years of habit, but use the words of condition, process etc then after some reflection it all becomes obvious. When I’m just getting on with life & something happens the old words can arise, and I don’t yet have the new reflections and ways of seeing “me” as my instant response. I think this confuses me as to where I am in this.

A couple of months ago I learnt that something I was really hoping for was unlikely to happen next summer and I was very upset. While sitting reflecting on it (after a couple of days) I suddenly saw that these expectations of what would happen were just a wrong view that I was very attached to, and it all collapsed into white lumps (like a car window breaking into lumps) and they all fell to the ground and I wasn’t upset any more !! Later when telling a friend about this I saw the wrong view as the façade of the Taj Mahal which just collapsed into these white lumps. And that I had “built” that façade or wall that looked like a building but was just a wrong view, and totally unreal.

I do a satipattanna practice, mainly bringing awareness to my sensations and watching nature in the garden. This LU process feels like a next step to see where I am in letting go of self and opening up to even more direct experience. I’m trying not to have any expectations as I don’t know where I am … having had a couple of experiences of letting go, there may be more “insights” or there may not. It’s not important, doing some more looking is important.


"Next please detail for me what comes up when you hear our main mantra here and that is there is no self, never was and the separate self is all but an illusion?"

I’m quite happy that the separate self is just an illusion. I find the Father Christmas & Superman metaphors really helpful. I can picture them in my mind, make up stories with them in, and those stories have no different “feel” to them than stories about me. Therefore any “I” can also be just an illusion – but it seems to have a solidity & identity to it in the same way that Father Christmas does, & that’s confusing …

It does also feel very like the experience when I felt that I was just a bundle of learnings & nothing more. That bundle of learnings seems to have a corporate identity somehow.

I think I’m rambling now, hopefully this answers your questions. I’ll do a separate post about the document you asked me to look at.

I've written this in Word & cut & pasted it. It looks OK, so hopefully it will be when submitted.

Teresa

User avatar
TeresaC
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:03 pm

Re: I would like a guide please

Postby TeresaC » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:55 pm

Hi Sunil

Here are my brief initial thoughts on “Direct Experience”

I’m happy with the senses & mind being just experience when I look at an experience, although why then do I say “I see this object” or “I hear that sound”.

I’ve not come across the unmistakable sense of Aliveness before. It makes a lot of sense. I shall reflect on how it fits in with senses, mind and awareness.

Teresa

User avatar
kvotski
Posts: 1148
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:31 am

Re: I would like a guide please

Postby kvotski » Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:45 am

Hi Teresa,

Very nice intro. You are much further on the path than mostly have come across. So it should be quite simple to go the next step. Freedom is simple although may not be easy.
I’m quite happy that the separate self is just an illusion. I find the Father Christmas & Superman metaphors really helpful. I can picture them in my mind, make up stories with them in, and those stories have no different “feel” to them than stories about me. Therefore any “I” can also be just an illusion – but it seems to have a solidity & identity to it in the same way that Father Christmas does, & that’s confusing …

It does also feel very like the experience when I felt that I was just a bundle of learnings & nothing more. That bundle of learnings seems to have a corporate identity somehow.
The solidity and corporate identity you speak of here, are they in direct experience or just another thought? How would you describe this feeling being different from your DE of Santa?

It's not that thoughts are not real, but the contents of the thought may be entirely fictional. Imagine the starship enterprise. You can see its booster jets or Captain Kirk or Mickey Mouse. You can enjoy this thought even laugh at the jokes and get excited about the adventure. The thoughts are real but the content is entirely fictional.

Is your identity the same way, feels real in thought but fictional when go to find it?

One reason most people have difficulty getting across this hurdle is that for decades you have believed in this fantasy called self. An added strength to this false notion was added by people in whom you have had complete and utter faith; your parents. People who love us can't really lie to us. That may be true but what if they know no better. Just like you or I before realization have propagated this illusion to our children.

So tell me again, is the identity named Teresa an illusion?

To help you further I would like you to review what you have already mentioned in your write up.

Is there a hearer of sounds around you?
Is there a taster?
Is there a smeller?
Is there a grower of your hair or nails?
Is there a breather of your breath?
Is there a walker?

Take your time.

Love

User avatar
kvotski
Posts: 1148
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:31 am

Re: I would like a guide please

Postby kvotski » Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:53 am

Hi Teresa,

On your second post,
I’m happy with the senses & mind being just experience when I look at an experience, although why then do I say “I see this object” or “I hear that sound”.

I’ve not come across the unmistakable sense of Aliveness before. It makes a lot of sense. I shall reflect on how it fits in with senses, mind and awareness.
Why do you think we attach I , me , mine or self to our acts and objects? Make a list of objects and actions with I, me or mine. And then rewrite them without the labels. Example, I am walking to just walking is happening. How do you feel when you see the other list? Does adding the labels I, me or mine add anything? 100% honesty.

Are you alive? How could you be without feeling this aliveness?

User avatar
TeresaC
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:03 pm

Re: I would like a guide please

Postby TeresaC » Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:10 am

Hi Sunil

Thank you for your reply :) I had a quick look at your blog & I guess you're 5 or 6 hours ahead of me - I'm in the UK - so you're asleep. I woke up feeling good about this, and thinking "of course there's just experience". One of my friends said she'd really enjoyed the process & I think I will - oops, there will be enjoyment :)

I'm going got try to write this bit without using I & see how it feels. Today there will be some time now to get a cup of tea and then start to make a list of my & mine objects.Then there will be a day with the (!!!) daughter and two grandsons. Then this evening there is a concert with a sister to see Leonard Cohen. After that, there should be time before sleep for at least a quick review of how its felt during the day. Doing it before bed then gives the sleeping mind something to play with.

That felt very strange, but rereading it it mostly reads ok, probably apart from the daughter & sister - top of the "my" list.

It's good that you think I'm already some way along the path - I thought either I was, or I was not just barking up the wrong tree but in the wrong forest. I think part of what I want is some witnessing & you've already given me that - thank you.

7 references to I/me and 2 to you, interesting. Does using pronouns provide clarity of meaning in everyday life ?

Unless I'm extremely tired I'll post before sleep at about 11.00 this evening with progress.

Thanks
Teresa x

PS I think I have this knowledge of non-self in my intellectual processing even if it's a bit shaky & needs practice to build new habits, but I don't yet have it in my feelings & body etc. It may take a while - or not ... xx

User avatar
TeresaC
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:03 pm

Re: I would like a guide please

Postby TeresaC » Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:19 am

Hi Sunil

Here is what I've just done & now I'm getting up with a headful of interesting things to reflect on during the day :)

Just previewed it & its lost all the spacings .... sorry, it looks a real mess. Is there a way to get neat double lists ?

Teresa

List of me & mine objects

My daughter The daughter, a daughter, daughter
My sister The sisters, a sister, sister
My grandchildren Grandchildren, 4 grandchildren
My husband Husband, Ian, man, loved man
My cup of tea Cup of tea
My phone Phone – aarrrgh – MY phone !!! – extension of my being
My computer Computer, macbook Air
My tshirt & trousers Tshirt & trousers
My daughter’s husband Daughter’s husband, Richard
My hand Hand
My painted toenails Painted toenails – with a picture of the different colours in my mind
My view of the garden,
what I can see,
my making meaning of what I can see
– words are slippery things,
would it be easier in a different language ?
Seeing the garden is happening, making meaning of the image is happening.
Only this body is in this place at this time, so this particular view is unique to “me” ….
This unique view is happening …
I’m in bed Being in bed is happening
I’m typing this list Typing this list is happening
I love my family Loving the family is happening, loving a family is happening …
using “the” as a more subtle replacement for “my” is happening …
I think Thinking is happening
My car, my husband’s car, our two cars,
sharing – hard for him A car, another car, two cars, connection & sharing – difficult for the loved man


I did this in a word table which only copied the words, so I hope you can make sense of it. Interesting that the smart phone seems to be the hardest to take MY off ... more than my family, or parts of my body ... my husband says I'm addicted to it, maybe he's right.

Time to get up. Have a good day.

Teresa x

User avatar
kvotski
Posts: 1148
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:31 am

Re: I would like a guide please

Postby kvotski » Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:37 pm

Great job. Style and format are just a few superfluous adjectives just like my.

Why is only the iPhone sticky? And why don't the others matter more even though you have called them yours all your life? How important are these I labels?

User avatar
TeresaC
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:03 pm

Re: I would like a guide please

Postby TeresaC » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:47 am

Hi Sunil

This is a very quick review, as its well past midnight, but I can't resist sharing what I've been thinking of in odd moments during the day. The iphone somehow feels like an extension of me - my memory, my communications with others, my sanctuary into solitaire when I'm a bit stressed. Far too much of a refuge ...

However, I also realised that my painted toes are a bit sticky - there are 5 different colours in a different order on each foot, & its quite a creative activity to choose the colours & paint them, so they feel like part of my summer identity. I then briefly thought that maybe other things I've made or somehow created may also difficult, but I haven't had time to try that out. Something for tomorrow morning.

People are quite easy to not belong to me - they have their own identities and the my daughter, or my husband feels as though it refers to a connection to them, not to any possessive quality.

It feels quite easy to lose the my on hand, I might try other parts of my body as well. I think that they have an existence a bit like the trees in the garden do.

I'm still pondering the Aliveness, but have no revelations around it. I'll think about the how important the labels are.

I'll sleep on all this & see if that provides any more thoughts.

Teresa x


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 99 guests