Thread for Bigred

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Douglita
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Thread for Bigred

Postby Douglita » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:07 am

Hi Bigred, (let me know how you want to be addressed!) - here's your thread.

First, please confirm you're ok with these basic conditions of doing the direct pointing here with me:

- Post once a day (at least) if at all possible. It’s fine if there are times you can’t do that, and there will probably be times I can’t respond on the same or next day.

- Be as clear and accurate (i.e. honest) as you can about your observations and responses.

- Respond from direct experience, rather than from conceptualising about what’s being asked.

- Leave aside other ‘spiritual’ or ‘dharma’ reading / viewing for the duration of this direct pointing. It’s ok to read other LU stuff, but even that could be a bit of a distraction. The main thing is keeping a strong focus on the investigations.

- If you want to use quotes from my posts in your replies, please use the quotes function on the forum (click on ‘post reply’ rather than ‘quick reply’, select text and click ‘quote’ on the line above the post – you can also use that for bold, italics, even colours!)

I'll assume you're ok with that - but please just confirm that.

First question: what are your views, feelings, expectations around liberation from / awakening out of / seeing through the self-view? What do you suppose will be the experiential outcome of this seeing-through?

V x

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Auk
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Re: Thread for Bigred

Postby Auk » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:01 pm

Many thanks Douglita,
I will reply fully tonight,
Please call me lalita

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Re: Thread for Bigred

Postby Auk » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:01 pm

Hello Douglita,
Thanks again for becoming my guide.
I will do my best to post each day,I think it will be a rare day I do not manage to do this.

I am happy not to read any 'spiritual or Dharma ' books in this time.

Most mornings I engage in a reflection practise around the Six elements would you like me not to do this practise whilst engaging with your guiding,I am quite happy to put on hold other practises,if you think that is best ?

My views,feelings expectations around liberation through seeing through self view:

Intially I had disbelief that such a thing is possible through the internet,and still have a faint, a little doubt or sceptism that it works and will it work for me....I had a couple of friends who recommended the site,and it has had a positive effect on both their lives.I was and am curious.
I also experienced a certain fear that maybe I was doing a wrong thing,that perhaps I might go a bit loopy/mad,a certain anxiousness.
Since I have decided ,and registered,I experienced a little amount of fear and anxiousness and through the afternoon as I went about my work I felt happier and happier,as well as excited and a degree of relief, and the anxiety lessened and at points vanished.
Whilst working,I do some simple manual work in the afternoons,more complex work in the mornings,and your questions kept coming to mind.
How would I put my expectations.
I hope,expect? to become more clear in how I lead my life.I would hope to be more 'on the ball'
I would hope to become more creative,less determined /handicapped by personal biases.less opinionated about people and give them more freedom.
I imagine that i would become more alive and more interested in life and the universe,and feel not so limited by my own ideas and,thoughts.
I had thought, before I registered, that I would not become a guide ,myself. if I go through,now I realise I am open to guiding in the future.

Many thanks,
lalita

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Douglita
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Re: Thread for Bigred

Postby Douglita » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:11 pm

Hi Lalita,

Thanks for your response and it's good to read about your hopes, fears and expectations. I have got to this very late this evening so will reply fully tomorrow.

D x

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Douglita
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Re: Thread for Bigred

Postby Douglita » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:53 am

Hi Lalita,
Most mornings I engage in a reflection practise around the Six elements would you like me not to do this practise whilst engaging with your guiding,I am quite happy to put on hold other practises,if you think that is best ?
It is fine to continue doing this (and may be helpful). You can continue doing whatever meditation practice you currently do.
I also experienced a certain fear that maybe I was doing a wrong thing,that perhaps I might go a bit loopy/mad,a certain anxiousness.
Fear/anxiety can be very useful stuff to work with, but before we can usefully look at that I need to know whether that fear you mention about going mad is based on any particular experience. Do you have or have you had any mental health problems? if so, how would you describe your current health and stability?
I would hope to become more creative,less determined /handicapped by personal biases.less opinionated about people and give them more freedom.
Can you find a 'you' or a 'controller' there who determines things and gives or takes freedom? 'Who' would be more creative?
I imagine that i would become more alive and more interested in life and the universe,and feel not so limited by my own ideas and thoughts.
Nice. Are ideas and thoughts limiting? Again…'who' is limited or freed by them?

There is no separate self at all. There is life flowing, as one movement. There is no separate entity living inside the bag of skin; it's a thought. There never was an entity in charge.

What comes up when you look to see if this is true?

By the way, ‘looking’ is shorthand for being directly aware of. Look only at what can be directly found in your experience, does not require any beliefs and cannot be doubted.

Love,
D

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Auk
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Re: Thread for Bigred

Postby Auk » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:44 pm

Hi Douglita,
Thank you.

I will continue with my regular meditation practise,I just wanted to check first with you and not assume it was ok,and also not fog or cloud this process,which from your mail stopped me in my tracks, provoking and considerate.

I have no history of mental illness,a rough,bleak,angst period in my late teens and early twenties,a little too much hashish ,paranoia ,which was 40 years ago now,I'm sixty this year,and feel and have felt emotionaly stable and healthy for some years,becoming more robust over the last twenty,twenty five years.

My intial response was that my stomach jumped,even a little fear.

I'm going to send this now as I want to read your thread again.

lalita

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Re: Thread for Bigred,'controller'

Postby Auk » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:14 pm

Hi Douglita,

I will get a friend to help me with the quotes function,as I don't fully understand how to work it,I had a go and I haven't got it correctly

Intially I read your email and felt ,wow ,big stuff!!!,I know its big stuff,this is serious,I knew it was serious ,more 'real',just more serious ,more immediate,my stomach turned over a few times with some anxiety,what have I got myself into,and then I knew I needed to sit quietly and give you and the process more attention as I was and am excited.

Can I find a ' you',a controller,No,however there is sense of rebellion as I do sense that something limits me,and sense the truth in what you say.
Is this just a thought,that limits me and how and why does it limit me?,How am I as I am if there wasn't some limiting factor?

What you wrote about Life flowing one movement is beautiful and freedom,that there isn't an entity inside this body only a thought,
I will investigate more,
and I will get the quotes function under my belt by tomorrow,
Thank you,
lalita

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Auk
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Re: Thread for Bigred,part3 reply

Postby Auk » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:07 pm

hi Douglita,
I find your responses and questions ,do intially raise a little apprehension and then ,I discover that I want to investigate who is this I ?,
where do these thoughts come from ?,

and then I start becoming excited,vibrant,more alive,the apprehension /closing in/protection recedes,transforms into vibrantcy,openess,investigation

I like the little pictures of acorns and Oaks....interesting because some weeks ago,after a more concentrated dwelling on the six elements,art practise and a more contemplative period on holiday in the Isle of Mull returning I felt very much like a seed,probably more,in my mind's eye a Beech nut/seed.

Perhaps all is coming to fruition,
thank you,
lalita

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Douglita
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Re: Thread for Bigred

Postby Douglita » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:13 pm

Hi Lalita,
feel and have felt emotionaly stable and healthy for some years,becoming more robust over the last twenty,twenty five years.
Great, no problem then :-)
Can I find a ' you',a controller,No,however there is sense of rebellion as I do sense that something limits me,and sense the truth in what you say.Is this just a thought,that limits me and how and why does it limit me?,
Best thing is to not believe what I say and check by looking, really looking, and trust what you see.

Look at your flow of thoughts and check if there is a 'me', an 'I' inherent in or behind the thoughts. If you observe thinking, can you see some thoughts that you attach more 'me' to?

After observing thoughts a while try this: "I am going to think a thought". What happens?
How am I as I am if there wasn't some limiting factor?
How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I / me' that you hold 'yourself' to be?

Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?

Fear and excitement sound good. Try gently staying with the fear. Try to clarify what it is trying to protect…

The 'vibrancy,openness,investigation' you describe sounds great!

Yes it would help if you can get the hang of the quote function. When you click on post a reply (not 'quick reply') you get a row of options along the top of the text box. If you click 'Quote' it should come up with a quote/unquote sign. You can paste text in the middle of those.

Love,
D

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Douglita
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Re: Thread for Bigred

Postby Douglita » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:26 pm

P.s. Just realised that the site seems to have lost it's 'quick reply' option since I last looked. The other way to use quote is to just press the big 'Quote' button on the side of whichever post you want to quote from...but then you'll get the whole post and have to cull the bits you don't want to quote. Good luck...but no worries if it's tricky.

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Re: Thread for Bigred

Postby Auk » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:59 pm

Hello Douglita,
Thank you.
Since yesterdays questioning and investigating,my thoughts and sense of self I have been. seemingly .quite naturally looking at their flow (of thoughts )and questioning them,interrupting them ,I am starting to become aware of a more 'solid' self sort of in the background,my sense of me,which I am interrupting when I question thoughts ,trying to see thoughts more as a flow without a sense of 'solid ' fixed self and this questioning and the investigations you raise interrupts 'my' flow and sense of solidity.

I am finding it freeing,and generally brighter.
Look at your flow of thoughts and check if there is a 'me', an 'I' inherent in or behind the thoughts. If you observe thinking, can you see some thoughts that you attach more 'me' to
There are definitely some thoughts which I feel are more me,now I start interrupting them.questioning them as above.
It feels exciting and freeing and a sense that I don't have to be the way I am ,and. where does this process lead,it feels healthy.
After observing thoughts a while try this: "I am going to think a thought". What happens?
I have tried this a little and and either a kind of blankness or it popped out 'which thought'...I think I will continue this question and the investigation of 'me' and thoughts more, as I experience some fascination,and feel like I'm onto something.

I think that I am beginning to disrupt this sense of self in a healthy way,through the questioning,not taking 'my' experience for granted,looking at it
[quote
How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I / me' that you hold 'yourself' to be?

Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?quote]

Also feel I need to investigate this more this sense of self and where it resides.

Fear or nervousness/anxiety is reducing when I come to your replies.I will stay gently with it,if it arises.

I have tried to get the hang of the quote function at the moment its a little disruptive in writing,will improve with practise.

Lalita

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Douglita
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Re: Thread for Bigred

Postby Douglita » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:27 am

I am starting to become aware of a more 'solid' self sort of in the background,my sense of me,which I am interrupting when I question thoughts ,trying to see thoughts more as a flow without a sense of 'solid ' fixed self and this questioning and the investigations you raise interrupts 'my' flow and sense of solidity.
I am finding it freeing,and generally brighter.
That all sounds good and like you are on the right track :-)
I think that I am beginning to disrupt this sense of self in a healthy way,through the questioning,not taking 'my' experience for granted,looking at it
Ok great. I suggest we keep up that 'disruption' ;-) and get down to some working with direct experience here (Direct Experience = that which cannot be doubted and needs no beliefs), so lets start by looking at experience in terms of sensations - noting directly that self cannot be found.

Notice the difference between sensation and the labelling of that sensation. Some sensations seem to be 'self' whereas others are ignored. Is there any real difference in terms of the sensations themselves?

Become aware of your hand or some other part of your body, notice any sensations. Walk around (or be still - just sit - if you prefer) and become aware of any physical sensations. Notice how an intense emotional sensation may seem to be very much 'me' while an equally intense sensation from say banging your elbow doesn't have the same quality of 'me-ness' about it.

What makes the difference between a self-identified sensation and one that isn't self-identified?

Notice how sensations always 'arrive' without any conceptual content. Is that true? Look carefully. The conceptual content (labelling etc.) arrives a moment later - can you see this directly? Notice that the mental activity is just another sensation arriving...

Now have a look to see if all sense arisings are labelled or just some…If you swing your gaze from one side to another rapidly, are all the visual arisings that occur labelled?

Notice how the familiarity of certain patterns is just sensations arising plus mental attribution. There is no self in the patterns - it's only what comes afterwards, in the attribution. Is that so?

It's been said that this is a bit like looking at the difference between a table, university and Santa. The table is real, like sensations, 'university' is just a label, not something you can touch or feel but a term for communication about something (in this case a collection of buildings for learning in etc.) and Santa is a fictional character like our 'Self'.
Also feel I need to investigate this more this sense of self and where it resides.
Ok. Sit quietly (e.g just sit) for a while, eyes closed. Can you find your personality? Is it there? Is it a discoverable 'thing' at all?

Have a go with all this and report back what you find! :-)

Love, D

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Douglita
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Re: Thread for Bigred

Postby Douglita » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:31 am

P.s. Practical notes: if you would like email notifications of posts here you can click on 'subscribe topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of the page. Looks like you were getting the hang of quotes. I forgot to mention that the site can sometimes 'time you out' if you only write replies on here and then you can lose whatever you were writing, so it might be safer to write on a word document then paste it over here.

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Auk
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Re: Thread for Bigred,begiining sensations

Postby Auk » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:55 pm

Hello Douglita,
Wow,great,daunting and into detail.....
Firstly I will continue the disruption and questioning of thoughts.Iam getting better at catching myself....
Iam applying this as i go about my daily life.

I have a busy day to day and will begin becoming more aware of sensations and labelling sensations,as much as I can and investigate and read your mail more fully again this evening and reply more then.
Thank you, Lalita

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Re: Thread for Bigred:sensations

Postby Auk » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:58 pm

Hello Douglita,
I am continuing with interrupting and questioning thoughts and ,shaking up particular views and ideas of and about myself...
There is a lot in your email.I have written some down to jogg my mind and approach tomorrow.
Tonight I was at a meditation practise and looked at sensations and labelling,I find things happen very fast almost immediately and I wasn't sure I could separate them,however I found a way for me to do this.

I remebered your mail had mentioned the elbow and so I was paying more attention to the elbow sensations and then I tried drawing (not literrally,though that I might do another time,it might be a way for me) the sensations...in drawing I become less verbal,less head talking and tending towards not labelling,for me a clearer way to see and experience.

I am going to have to look more at some more 'self' sensations and some are not.I can interlectually see and say there is no difference ,however I know I need to really see and feel this.And what makes the difference between attached sensations and unattached...More to consider ,for me.

I am in process of keeping a little notebook with reminders of the questions and investigations which you guide.
and from now I will be considering this,as I go about my life and refreshing the other questions your email.

I am finding my life,awareness,attitudes are shifting,my excitement is calming down.I generally want to be quieter,stiller to see more clearly.

So thank you.

I apologise for not answering all your questions now,I need to look more.
Many thanks,I very much appreciate your time and diligence.
Lalita


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