I still believe in Me! (Please assist..)

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Lanimal
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I still believe in Me! (Please assist..)

Postby Lanimal » Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:41 pm

Hi Anyone,
Time to Awaken... lets get this over with!

Read a lot of Krishnamutri (both) in my life, walked into Jed McKenna last year, and just finished reading "From Onions to Pears" Satyam Nadeen (twice). Fan of Benjamin Smythe, via him found Elena Nezhinsky, and from there straight to The Gate.
Some background: I a guy, 41 your old now, surfer, seeker, shoe importer.
Been seeking all my life for the 'truth', whatever that is.

Went into a crisis last year: co-worker quit, girlfriend just walked out of the door, and my company almost crashed, all in three weeks. During the tears I discovered I lived most of my life in contraction, resisting to what is there, at present. Hate, fear, jealousy, envy, loneliness, desire.
This period tough me a lot about myself. I always have had a feeling of being not good enough, no acceptance of myself, and not fitting in.
Whenever these feelings now arise (including the stomach going zip) I have time.. and a sort of... less-importancy to the storm passing by. Letting life unfold itself more. Taking a deep sigh and releasing my stomach tension a bit more.

Still there is an I, or let me put it this way, there is identification with my negative fear mongering commentator.
I still believe him...


Please show me the door.

-

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Paulo
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Re: I still believe in Me! (Please assist..)

Postby Paulo » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:51 pm

Hello Martijn, my name is Paulo, and it would be a pleasure to guide you.

A few ground rules -

1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from personal experience only.
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
5. Read the FAQ page to get an idea of what we do here - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_FAQ.html
6. Learn how to use the quote function when responded to messages - http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

If you are happy to agree to the above, let me know and we can begin.

Paulo :-)

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Lanimal
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Re: I still believe in Me! (Please assist..)

Postby Lanimal » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:51 pm

Hi Paulo,
Nice to meet you!
Great.
I accept the rules.
I am exited. :)

Thanks for your guidence.
Martijn

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Paulo
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Re: I still believe in Me! (Please assist..)

Postby Paulo » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:45 pm

Thanks Martijn, let us begin -
Time to Awaken... lets get this over with!
What do you imagine the experience of being awakened is like, and how does it differ from where you are now?
Still there is an I
What EXACTLY is this 'I' you refer to? (be as specific as possible here).

Paulo.

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Lanimal
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Re: I still believe in Me! (Please assist..)

Postby Lanimal » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:26 pm

What do I imagine the awakened state is?
Awakening to me.. it would be like getting a 100% clear view to see the difference between whether I imagine ideas in my head, or see things for what they are. To see the world without thoughts interfering, or at least not identify with the thought process. And idealy this would lead to less contraction or undentification with the daily contractions.

How would it differ from where I am now?
It would differ as I currently quickly feel uncomfortable among people or situations, I quickly move into battle mode meaning judgement, jealousy and enviousness. So it would be an opening up to what is present, enjoying life unfolding, even to see the contractions as fun/part of the deal. Not taking life so seriously.
Apperently being awake brings less to no identification with the story. Which appeals to me.

What EXACTLY is this 'I' you refer to?
Although it is difficult/impossible to point to the exact 'I' if one went looking for it, the I to me would be the perceiver, the experiencer. The entity I am used to. Althoug pretty undefinable, the (to me) familiar guy who was there yesterday too.

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Paulo
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Re: I still believe in Me! (Please assist..)

Postby Paulo » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:55 am

Hi Martijn, thanks for your reply, nice and detailed, open, and honest, a great beginning!
Apperently being awake brings less to no identification with the story. Which appeals to me.
These thoughts about what awakening will look or feel like are just expectations. It is important that you put aside all expectations, just for the moment, and allow what ever IS to just be.

At Liberation Unleashed we look at the illusion of self, which is an important first step in awakening to reality, and we cannot predict in advance what that will look or feel like, although you will know it when it happens. Reality has no respect for expectations, it is what it is.
Although it is difficult/impossible to point to the exact 'I' if one went looking for it
When you were a child did Santa Claus seem real until you went looking for him?

Why this percieved difficulty? Surely, if the 'I' is a real entity there should be no great difficuty in pointing to it, right?

the I to me would be the perceiver, the experiencer
Take a good honest look here - what EXACTLY is it that's percieving/experiencing?
(Don't speculate or theorise here, don't try to formulate a response that sounds good, just LOOK, and share what you find)
Althoug pretty undefinable, the (to me) familiar guy who was there yesterday too.
Next time you're at the beach pick a wave and watch it. See it build, peak, crash and come in to shore. Then wait 60 seconds. Ask yourself where is the wave that came to shore?

Likewise, ask yourself where is the familiar guy who was there yesterday?

Paulo :)

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Re: I still believe in Me! (Please assist..)

Postby Lanimal » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:40 pm

Reality has no respect for expectations.
I like that.
Every expectation will be a momentum away from reality. It takes away the hook/sting of the building illusions.
When you were a child did Santa Claus seem real until you went looking for him?
Santa felt real yes, but you didn't know where to look for him. So he was a ghost.. or of course an illusion, perceived as real by group-ideas.
When found out, somehow it made a lot of sense that he was an illusion, but this analogy does not (yet) seem obvious for the self.
As it doesnt feel like that there is a strong reason to doubts my existence.
Why this perceived difficulty? Surely, if the 'I' is a real entity there should be no great difficulty in pointing to it, right?
Good point.
Although I can verbally/intellectually understand that its all done with smoke and mirrors.. (basically you can make people believe anything I guess) I do not yet differentiate with it. I do not have the overview, the perspective, to see the smoke and mirrors and understand/have capability to see that That is not me.
So what you are telling me, or what this is about, is sort of hard to believe.
Everything that happens to me seems to happen in me, or at least from my perspective, and it doesnt appear to be somebody else its perspective or perception. So, in this way I feel separate from others, which then in turn sort of defines the me although it is not possible to point to a center.

Leads me to thinking that what defines me is a shadow, and therefor perhaps illusionary. Yet, in daily life many things are attributed to me. It would be sort of weird to say "Hi person that I will call Paulo as I have a shadow of memory of you from yesterday".

Take a good honest look here - what EXACTLY is it that's perceiving/experiencing? No speculation theories allowed.
If I really look.. hmmm... all sorts of thoughts arrive (i am looking at my surfboard), they come and go. It's sort of difficult to find the quiet moments in between where the thoughts shut up. But I get all unresty like you hardly can face your daddy in the eye after being caught stealing a cookie. But when there are these rare silences these are moments of ease.. or rest. Just looking, I would describe it as sensory.. eh.. sensory undistortion.

Now what is it that is looking/perceiving...
I just have been sitting still in a chair for more then half an hour, trying to find an answer. I do not have any logical answer. I guess there is only a looker, an experiencer. There is no way I can describe the experiencer. Thinking about it would make me suggest that whatever the experience is would define the experiencer.
Likewise, ask yourself Where is the familiar guy who was there yesterday?
That guy is in the mirror, that same hands that touch my computer right now. The same bank account, login name and so forth. The familiar belly, preference of thee.. stuff like that.
Now where is yesterday? Nowhere. But the perceiver appears to be familiar.

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Paulo
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Re: I still believe in Me! (Please assist..)

Postby Paulo » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:44 pm

Thanks Martijn,
So what you are telling me, or what this is about, is sort of hard to believe.
That's fine, I'll never ask you to believe anything I tell you (infact quite the opposite), but rather to rely entirely on your own lived experience. It's all too easy to 'sell' people an idea, but that just adds another belief to what is probably an already long list, and beliefs are certainly not the same as reality.

In order to tap into your own lived experience, rather than thoughts ABOUT that experience, we use a technique called 'looking'. And yes, this really is as simple as it sounds - looking at what's happening in 'direct experience', rather than thinking or trying to logically work things out.

This way of looking at reality is new to most people, so I think it would be useful at this point to orient you to this approach. You may also find Neil's article on Direct Experience a useful read, as he gives a good description of the elements of direct experience - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html

For now, let us begin our journey by looking at TIME -

Consider the following statement -

Nothing exists outside the present moment.

Consider that statement as you go about your daily routine today. Look and consider it in different situations, and see if you can actually find anything outside the present moment (there's a prize if you do!).

Have fun with that one, Paulo.

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Lanimal
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Re: I still believe in Me! (Please assist..)

Postby Lanimal » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:01 am

Okee.
A question arose today:
How do I see the difference between direct experience, and artificially produced thoughts taking the space of direct experience?
Both seem as real as they can get. How can I cultivate direct experience, at the cost of thought produced emotions and sensation. As the last one seams false.. or perhaps.. contaminated.


I just followed the link and read it. I would agree on the article, on Direct Experience. I even sort of experienced this myself answering the previous question, where I could not find a center in a 'looking' exercise, only experiences. Still it does not feel I am in a continues state of direct experience, or, that when not being in a state of direct experience I can switch back, or, that I can see the difference clearly.
I mean, if somebody crashes into me on a bike, it would be strange to say "He dude, I experience a lot of pain right now, but dont bother, its not really me in the first place." I think I would say other things.

Consider the following statement -
Nothing exists outside the present moment.
Good point. I agree on this. This would be totally impossible.
The thought educed emotions as well as the direct Experience could only take place at present.
Although it sort of feels that the wondering off, the daydreaming, or thoughts passing by, all seem to be outside the present. Which is impossible of course. And then, the present is colored by memory I guess, so how present is the present.
OK, basically all perception takes place now. This sounds like an assumption. Let me put it this way, the only point of view I/one can rely on is what reality is present. But that could be anything.. from nothing (deep sleep), to silence, to emotions, to thoughts, to direct E.
Why is the thought process so... overly present? When I sit down and want to have direct experiences all these thoughts arise claiming the present.
Why do thoughts seem so real? And neglecting thoughts doesnt sound like an option either.
Why am I talking about an undefined presumed problem right now, wasting my silence.

How is it possible I hear the sound of my thoughts, like sounds of a bird, while there are no real sounds?
(I think I am going mental now :)

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Paulo
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Re: I still believe in Me! (Please assist..)

Postby Paulo » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:44 am

A question arose today:
Let's be clear here, I can only guide you along the path, I'm not here to teach you or convince you of anything - this isn't highschool, your own experience will be your best teacher. If any questions arise for you during your inquiry into the illusion of self you must look at them and answer them. You have the questions, because only you have the answers.
How do I see the difference between direct experience, and artificially produced thoughts taking the space of direct experience?
Both seem as real as they can get. How can I cultivate direct experience, at the cost of thought produced emotions and sensation. As the last one seams false.. or perhaps.. contaminated.
OK, since you seem to be 'all at sea', I'll throw you a 'life line' here with a little story -
A ship’s captain goes before an interview panel of admirals, hoping to get a job captaining a cruise ship in the South Seas.
During the interview process the first admiral asks him – If you were captaining a cruise liner and came upon a storm at sea, what would you do to protect the ship and passengers?
The captain answered – well I would face the ship into the storm, drop and anchor from the bow, and wait until the storm blew out.
Excellent answer said the first admiral, that’s exactly the right thing to do.
The second admiral asked – if you were captaining a cruise ship and a cyclone blew up at sea, what would you do to protect the ship and passengers?
The captain answered – well I would face the ship into the cyclone and drop an anchor from the bow, and another from the stern, and wait until the cyclone had passed.
Excellent answer said the second admiral, that’s exactly the right thing to do.
The last admiral then asked – if you were captaining a cruise ship and came across a tsunami at sea, what would you do to protect the ship and passengers?
The captain answered – I would face the ship into the tsunami, drop anchors from the bow and stern, three more over the port side and another five anchors over the starboard side.
The third admiral responded – that sounds like a prudent approach, but where are you getting all these anchors from?
The captain replied quick as a flash – the same place your getting these storms!
Consider the statement - thoughts are real, but the content is not.
Although it sort of feels that the wondering off, the daydreaming, or thoughts passing by, all seem to be outside the present. Which is impossible of course. And then, the present is colored by memory I guess, so how present is the present.
How present is the present? - stop guessing! just LOOK, a five year old child could understand this simple thing.

Think of what you had for dinner yesterday - what time frame does that thought occur in?
Think of the dinner you will have tomorrow - what timeframe does that thought occur in?


Martijn, reality isn't something you have to think about - take your example of the bicycle accident - if someone crashes into you on a bike tell him he's a f**cking idiot and punch him in the face - the physical pain is real, the feeling of anger/frustration is real, but the thougts ABOUT that accident or what would happen are not. Here's a little video clip to illustrate my point - (It's the 'bridge scene from the film Peaceful Warrior, so I hope you can get access to the clip in your country) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lWuUzpLLUs

There's a lot to consider above, but you didn't explicitly tell me if you found anything outside the present moment - so, did you? Give me an example from your experience perhaps. [Remember, there's a big prize riding on this if you can find anything at all outside the present moment :)]

With love, Paulo.

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Re: I still believe in Me! (Please assist..)

Postby Lanimal » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:39 pm

I like your example.. the movie.
My mind is filling up with thoughts all the time, definitely.
For some reason I get distracted all the time shifting to thinking.
It's like an automatic addiction turning back to the thinking again.

If I think about it (here I go again): when in the state if thinking, the Looking, in stead of thinking, seems to acquires a certain quality or attention of the mind. The focus is easily shifting to ideas again.

If I NOT think about it and look... then I start looking and sensing.
This area is more quiet. Although I can focus from eyes, to feelings, to sounds.
(after which all sorts of ideas pop up again taking me away from the looking/sensing)
Can you explicitly tell me if you found anything outside the present moment.
Well.. I would love to win a prize. But if I am looking and sensing there is no tomorrow in the moment.
Still I am not sure if I am answering your question.

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Lanimal
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Re: I still believe in Me! (Please assist..)

Postby Lanimal » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:43 pm

Consider the statement - thoughts are real, but the content is not.
This statement I have difficulties with. The content is also real. Maybe it is what it is, whatever it is, but it is real.

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Paulo
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Re: I still believe in Me! (Please assist..)

Postby Paulo » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:10 pm

Hi Martijn, thanks for your response,
For some reason I get distracted all the time shifting to thinking.
It's like an automatic addiction turning back to the thinking again.
I'm glad you can see this, and yes, it's very much like an addiction, a habit. Retreating into thought can also be a defense mechanism if life isn't so pleasant.

But don't worry, we'll get you oriented to direct experience, and you will see that although thoughts are real, and in the moment, the actual content of those thoughts is not. In my experience once you've seen how unreal thoughts are you won't be as concerned about them as you perhaps were previously.

But don't take my word for it, here's an exercise you can try yourself -

This little exercise demonstrates how the mind mistakes the imaginary character 'I' in thought for a real being, and tries to protect it. It's what we might call the 'jump test'.

Step 1: Stand in a room where you have some quiet and some space
Step 2: Close your eyes and imagine as vividly as you can that you are standing on the roof of a tall building. Feel the wind around you, hear the traffic and noise of the street below, check if it's night or day, have a look around and note what you can see - engage as many senses in the imaginary experience as you can.
Step 3: In your imagination walk to the edge of the building - look at how far the street is below, see the traffic and people if there are any, see your feet on the edge.
Step 4: Both in your imagination and with the physical body take a step forward over the edge.

Observe how the body reacts, observe how the imaginary characters falls - did you reach the bottom, landing on the ground?

Try that exercise again until you can successfully fall and land.

The laws of physics don't apply to the imagination - why do you think people find it so difficult to fall to the bottom?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
My mind is filling up with thoughts all the time, definitely.
Sure, that's what the mind does. It's usually not a problem until the content of those thoughts is believed to be real. Here's another story for you to illustrate -

A man is walking along a path on a darkened night. He sees in front of him a snake and is startled and afraid to go any further. His pal arrives with a torch and when he shines the light on the snake they see it’s really an old piece of rope. Both friends have a good laugh and continue on their way.
Consider the statement - thoughts are real, but the content is not.
This statement I have difficulties with. The content is also real. Maybe it is what it is, whatever it is, but it is real.
There is a bit of work for you to do in the excercise above, so we will look at this point, and your point about the present moment a little later. For now, here's a nice picture for you, can you connect the message in the picture with our dialogue about thoughts being real.

Image

[Note: By 'real' here I'm talking about direct experience]

Paulo :)

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Lanimal
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Re: I still believe in Me! (Please assist..)

Postby Lanimal » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:53 pm

I did the jumping test/experiment.
The first time I jumped or stepped over the edge of this 15 floor building I got really scared. I felt big scary feelings in my stomach and had to open my eyes to make sure I wasnt falling to death.
The second time I sort of imagined falling down (slowly) and landing softly on my feet.
The laws of physics don't apply to the imagination - why do you think people find it so difficult to fall to the bottom?
In my case because the imagination went as far as falling, probably because the focus is on the danger and not what might come after that.

---------

The rest I have to think about.. my neighbors are having a party so I cant think straight.

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Paulo
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Re: I still believe in Me! (Please assist..)

Postby Paulo » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:10 am

Hi Martijn,
In my case because the imagination went as far as falling, probably because the focus is on the danger and not what might come after that.
Exactly what danger was there? (be specific here).
The rest I have to think about..
Don't think, look! :)

Paulo


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