Aditya and otterrivers

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otterrivers
Posts: 511
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:48 pm

Aditya and otterrivers

Postby otterrivers » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:24 pm

[Copied from Email conversation. STARTED JUNE 3 2013
A = Aditya. O = Otterrivers]

A
Hello Mr. Rivers,

Pallavi asked me to connect with you, she told me, you could guide me
in the liberation process. I'm glad to connect with you

O
ok to start, i want to ask that you reply often. everyday if possible (although of course life happens. things come up. i may not be able to answer every single day either.)
Please leave behind all other "spiritual" reading, teachings, practices, etc for the duration of our talk. if you have an essential daily meditation practice, it's fine to continue that. let's make a space for this.
you must be willing to forget everything and look again like a new baby ok?

Assuming you agree, let's start with 3 little questions. (Answer with completely direct honesty. any long winded or philosophical responses will be counter-productive.)

1) When you say "I" "myself" "me" what do you refer to? Is there something real behind it?

2) if i say There is no you (I) in reality, how does this feel? what comes up?
...
3) what are your expectations of this process? what should happen if this conversation is successful?

A
Thanks Otter, to begin with, its been 6 months, I've read any book on spirituality, nor did I listen to any lectures. However, I do meditate once a week, I'd stick to that as you have mentioned

1) I, me and myself were originally used as parts of speech, in my view, they (I, me and myself) are the same, for we've used them often to conversate. From the I, came the me and the myself. They refer to something our mind have constantly been bombarded with, so much so, these words took primary part of our lives. Conceptually, I know, there is nothing behind it

2) I don't feel anything, there is absolutely nothing, initially it was scary when it started, but when I stopped thinking, labeling and conditioning, the experience felt better. It would feel like we're just looking at things

3) I'm frankly not expecting anything, I'd want to experience it instead of expecting anything, I don't know what should happen, however, I'd say, I'd go with the flow and I don't really know, what should happen

O
ok. about expectations, i'll inform you what this conversation is about. ALL I offer with this talk is to help guide you to seeing for yourself that there never was a thing called "me" or "I" in life outside of imagination. there are no promised results of this. I only promise to stay with you and keep pointing to what we call the "gate" of truly realizing there is no self. I will ask questions and you will answer from direct experience ok? not what anyone told you. not even "proven facts". looking again as if for the first time ok?

you make a good point about words. I would like to start by looking at words.

1) look at this computer screen. do you see it? ....is that REALLY true? find in reality for me where the separation is between seeing, sight, and seen. these may appear to be separate when referring to thought for the answer but that is not good enough. we want truth only, right? really look VERRRY carefully and find this separation. You can do this with any sense: feelings, thoughts, emotions... is there a faculty (sense, thought, emotion) then a source of observation, then a recipient of observation? if not, we might have trouble locating the "Me" in it.

2) tell me, where does the seeing (hearing etc) happen?

A
thanks for the support, I do understand that there are no promised
results, i'm taking to enquire it myself, Thanks again

1) I can't see any difference between seeing, sight and seen, i've
also applied feelings, emotions and in my view, there is no
difference. Its like seeing happens on its own, it does not need an I,
similarly with sound, we hear sounds, but it does not require an I to
hear.

2) The seeing, hearing happens on its own, It just happens,

O
1) look with your whole being. find what is "I"? describe what is found when looking for "I".

i don't mean for you to tell me you can't find "I", i only mean tell me what IS found.

2) let's look at control. do you have any control? over anything? describe. explain

A
1) conceptually, I tried looking at my whole being, I can't find the
I, I have not thought, only merely looked, I am still not able to find
the I
2) I don't have any control over anything, well minor day-day things
like hunger, not choosing to eat a particular place, not wanting to
meet a person, not deciding to do a particular type of work, not
wanting to read, workout (to an extend, these are controller),
otherwise, I know, the flow of life takes its course and i don't have
control over the broader, major things

O
1) another way to try the previous question #1) is: what is witnessing? describe what you find when looking for what witnesses. I wasn't asking you to find "I". Just to describe what IS found in the process of looking for "I" or "self" or "witness".

2) look even closer at control. you have any? ANY?
no need to look in thought(memory) for an answer. let's stick to current experience. here is a little experiment: Pay close attention. Count to 3 slowly then close your eyes when you get to 3. ....or not. ... "choose" and watch what is really happening. actually try this. watch closely what happens. see what happens first; the action or the thought of choice.

use this as homework. watch even the little choices. You said you cannot find "I". Then what chooses? Remember what was not found when looking for "see-er", "hear-er"? what about "choose-er"?
Are 'you' choosing? or do things simply happen with the thought appearing soon afterwards "I have chosen this."? Do 'you' have control over what thoughts to think?

Check for yourself. Trust only your own seeing. see if I am full of shit or if there is some truth to this. use your own direct looking and simply report what is seen without referring to thought for what is true. Go ahead and reply to this now if you'd like, but also keep some attention on choice for the next day or so. even the little choices. and report next time you write what is noticed.

A
The second one has quite sinked in, like seeing, hearing, doing,
walking, there is no control regards the thought process, it does not
need to have a separate identity to think, it happens

I have a small query, with the first one, sorry :(
by Witness, looking for a witness. do you want me look at - When, we
are seeing without the identity, who is witnessing this seeing (do you
want me to look at this witness) like, when we are thinking, hearing
without the identity, do you want me to look at this identity which is
looking at hearing, thinking
Hope it's not confusing

O
basically I was asking you to describe the parts you find when looking for "I" such as a body, thoughts, habits, personality(also thought/habit). feelings, senses... a sense of BEing... all of these things that are not "I". so also, witnessing, awareness... are these "I"?
do you understand the question I was asking now? sometimes the answer is just to not see anything. if I say" look for the witness, what witnesses this?"
...what do you find? anything?
so you see there is no choice or do you still feel you have choice? it's ok to explore it. I don't want you to just agree. really TRY HARD to make a choice. watch closely, what is happening???

A
Hello Otter, I'm able to find the body, thoughts, habits, personality,
feelings, senses, but these can function even without the I, I can see
that, I don't need a separate I for the body, thoughts, habits etc.

Also witnessing and awareness, observation is happening, it does not
need a separate I at all

but, when you told me, sometimes, don't see anything, i suddenly get
into laughter, when i'm looking at a part, i suddenly laugh for
no-reason, initially, I was like, Why am I laughing, but i'm getting
used to it

The other question on choices, i'd take some time to explore reaaaalllly slow :)

O
:) if you laugh, you laugh. is it true that one thing causes another? I can see it is a useful story (thoughts) for physical life to have this view but is it absolutely true? I can only see that one thing happens and then something else. haha. there is hunger. food is eaten. there is fullness. ...and these are like body, mind, personality etc. all parts of what you might call "one big happening". where there really any separate events? just like asking "is there ever really a self?"
look at a table. is there REALLY a table? there is a flat part and posts to hold it up. and each of these parts seems to be made from other arts. and all of these parts do not exist either except as a collection of parts. so in relative truth, yes there is a table and a "myself". Don't you exist? yes you are right there reading this right? but that is relative truth. when you focus and really try to find "me" it is not there except as parts. then looking at the parts, the same thing happens. haha. but this is not guidance, just something to think about.
now when you say <"I can see
that, I don't need a separate I for the body, thoughts, habits etc. Also witnessing and awareness, observation is happening, it does not need a separate I at all">

yes, no "I" is needed. but does that mean there is an "I" but it just isn't needed? or was there ever an "I" at all?

and yes please take your time with the "choice" inquiry. but not too long. just report what you find. don't pay much attention to the thoughts about it.


A
Thanks a ton, I did read the collection of parts in a Koan, totally
rad that was.
also I must talk about an experience I witnessed, I was at the beach,
staring at the waves for 45 mins, I had to go home, I pointed towards
a wave and said, let that wave hit me, I'd move, It was continuous, I
laughed and felt, there was something continuous, something ever
existing within us and a moment of deep silence was felt, I left
So, it was getting dark, i had to leave, and i thought, i'd leave
after this wave, hits my leg, but the wave was so continuous, i had a
moment of silence then, that it felt that there was something
continuous, something that was ever-present and the silence dimmed

and with regards the question on the 12th, I've looked at thoughts and
choice, they are like waves, they come and go, I don't have control
over them

To answer the first, there isn't an I, I have mentally constructed it,
I tried looking slowly, also thinking of myself like a baby, where
we're yet to be named, I feel the I was constructed by us

O
it's an interesting story. about the waves. I think I know what you are talking about.

1) try to notice if this was a special happening or if it is always this way but attention just notices it or not.

did you do your homework about "choice"?
I asked you to watch every little thing you might call choice. what is happening? is choice reality? I asked you to try your hardest to MAKE a choice. this isn't something you need to slowly work on. just try it now.

2) go through the process of "deciding" and watch closely. tell me what is happening.

don't tell me what you think or what might be. just report what is noticed directly.

A
the whole thingy, about choice, it feels like choice is happening,
when i try my hardest to make a decision, I don't want to do that
decision, i am preferring the flow to take its own choice, but when I
look closely, choice is happening irrespective , Like yesterday, I was
deciding the same thingy, very hard, eating X or Y, finally, when Y
was closed, i settled for X, even then, i felt the choice was
happening, the flow is taking the choice further

if i decide to do something, i've watched closely, i'm just accepting
the decision and going on with the said activity

I was pondering on the waves part, the continuous thingy, the ever
happening, and it suddenly shifted to when I was born, I kept asking,
if even my parents were labels, if so, where did he really originate,
then, I was thinking, could be, there is a self, which is true, and
we've created another self and called it I, that self which is real is
like the wave, ever originating, suddenly, It emerged

O
that's very interesting. (about your birth and parents). yes you have come on to the concept of "true self" or "original nature". just feel what is there. it is what it is, not what you think about it.

As your guide, i seek only to help you see there is no such thing as "me" (separate self). but know there is always the trap available for you to walk into. the trap is "i am everything." or "all is one. there is no self and i am the one who has seen that."
the point is not to identify with something that is closer to the truth. the point is there really is no identification outside of imagination. what exists that can identify?

there are much better concepts than "i am me". there are much less harmful beliefs. but do you want improvement or truth?
-----------------------------------------------------------------

No need to respond about that. just be aware of what I've said and move on to this:

about choice:
1) explain what is a choice when looking with direct experience.
here is a clue: there is a thought that "i can choose to do X or Y.... I will do Y"
where was there any possibility that X could have happened? is choice real, or is there simply a thought that something was chosen?
you can find in reality that Y happened but if you say it was "chosen" is this really true?

don't just say the right answer. what if i'm trying to trick you? better that you find what is really true, not try to say what i want. investigate. watch this all day today and tell me tomorrow

so what ya think adi? what is happening when "choice" happens. just say what you see.
the VERY BEST way i can see to work on this is to have you try your VERY HARDEST to prove that choice is happening. that seems better than having you agree with me provisionally but then wonder later if it is true. use all the ammunition that mind can find to prove that there is choice in life. then we will examine each idea. i will point you where to look but i will not tell you what you should see.

A
Hey Otter, Howdobedoyoudo, I know, it's been long, I'm really sorry,
apparently, the office folks went out for vacation, i've been doing
their part too

This seems like an entire deja vu, I was in the park, silently, going
through the stuff, we did discuss, suddenly, I had this thingy about
choice, do I choose, or choice happens, I was going to write about it
3 days back, but I was thinking, was it too early,
for instance, I thought, I used to drink/smoke, when I drank, I did
drink heavy, part of it was due to the profession, but when I did
think that day, was it the same me that quit drinking/smoking, how did
I even get here, it was quite not possible, because in the industry,
people drink, thursday, friday and saturday, Did this choice of not
drinking/smoking just happen or did I chose, not to (but then, I also
did reflect on, did X cause another, did the spiritual
reading/know-how cause me from not drinking or it just happened)

Another instance, where i felt the choice, I've looked at a parent
ardently controlling his child, I was thinking, do this control really
happen, or he's doing it subconsciously (this might be a label, but i
chose to mention it to you),

The whole concept of conditioning, when media conditions us, society
conditions us, etc, is it really happening or is it one big event, if
yes, why do some people reflect differently to different conditioning,
for instance,

I looked at memory and reflected, whether choices, thoughts and habits
came from our memory, but this memory also has been a result of
conditioning, did this just happen.

A humourous angle, when you mentioned, try your very hardest, I wanted
to do drink to see if choice is happening, I did go near the wine shop
and burst out laughing and went home :))

When, I was laying out fonts/typography, did i really choose, or was
choice happening, yes, choice was happening, but from where, I could
not fathom

Again, i've also looked at a lot of friends, who talk about victory,
desire to struggle to win, are these choices, they make or does it
just happen

I was going to write all this, but you've actually forced me to write :)

Thanks a ton, sorry, if i'm delaying, the experience has been,
personally a totally rad journey

Even, while say, playing Dante's inferno, I'm able to choose the
right/wrong buttons, but how is the choosing happening

O
good work adi. the only issue is that you seem to be saying what you were thinking about instead of exactly WHAT was seen.

you said "did I really choose or is choosing happening?" IS choosing happening??? describe what "choosing" is in your direct experience. see what i'm saying?
there is a THOUGHT "I can choose". then something happens. then there is another THOUGHT "I chose this". ...we can use the word 'choice' to talk, but is it real or just something that exists purely in thought? just a word that is taken as a real, true thing?

here are 2 more thoughts to explore. are these thoughts or reality?:
1)cause/effect (why, what reason?)
2)memory

keep exploring choice. look what is actually happening without referring to thought for truth.

but let's also explore memory and cause/effect. (it may seem like I am giving you multiple subjects, but this is ONE SUBJECT. i'm trying to get you to see the difference between:


-living as though thoughts were reality
or
-seeing exactly what is experienced (including 'thought happens').

all these mind-labels:
-self
-choice
-memory
-causes

...these are all just fine to use for speaking. but just because some people invented these words, is it true that they represent something that is REAL? even though these concepts are useful, ...when and why did you start to believe these are true things?

1)Cause/effect: -one thing happens. ...another thing happens. ...mind skillfully puts it together a story. a timeline. it appears very true when watching. at the ocean, one wave hits another, causing another wave, right? water moved. is the thought "that water hit the other water and moved it and...." is this the truth? in DIRECT EXPERIENCE, you see one movement. then there is another movement. can you find the reality of cause and effect? or is there simply a THOUGHT of this that works to make sense of what happens? even if it is a very useful thought which points to the truth of your experience... is the THOUGHT the truth? (this includes the thoughts: "why?" and "what reasons?")

2)memory: -can you find your childhood right now? where is it? your most recent shower... where is that? if I ask you to think of a purple flying cat, it appears there in imagination. is this not the same place you see your shower or childhood? is memory not thought/imagination?

see what I am pointing to. look in this direction: are these thoughts the reality? thought is real in d.e. (direct experience) but is the CONTENT of the thoughts truth? think of a pen. now go find a pen. a match for the content of the thought "pen" can be found in reality but which is really real, the thought "pen" or the actual pen?

again, this is all one subject, not many.

I've given you a pretty big message to look through. I hope I have been clear enough.
I am going away for a camping trip from tomorrow evening until sunday evening.
take your time and respond clearly from what is sensed directly.
I see you're working hard at this. just wanted to tell you I notice that. I am just pointing you away from what you think about it and toward what IS.

A
True, what you have mentioned, I did look into them and I felt the
same, since, you asked me to go heavily think that choice happens, it
could have gone over board, i've noticed one thingy, I need to look at
things, DIRECT, the DIRECT EXPERIENCE, the DIRECT WITNESSING, like a
BABY.
Will do the same

O
you say "you asked me to go heavily think that choice happens"
not quite true.

i'm only asking you to say what you see. not what you see in thoughts, but exactly what happens directly.
yes, like a baby.

User avatar
otterrivers
Posts: 511
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:48 pm

Re: Aditya and otterrivers

Postby otterrivers » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:26 pm

Here is a useful trick to help you:
play a little game like a small child. a game called "let's pretend".

Let's pretend you have full amnesia. you have no memory of anything before now. you can only respond from what is seen right now without referencing any memories. now answer my email from july 27th again. the one that starts with "good work adi. the only issue is that..."
ok?
(p.s. you still know how to read even with the amnesia ok? but that's all. lol)

A
ha ha, thanks a ton, well, actually, i'd reply, when I get home, some
interesting things I did look, this Amnesia thingy sounds rad, will
look

[THE NEXT DAY]
A
Hey Otter, i'm starting to love the Amnesia thingy, it's actually
addictive, ha ha, been in that state only, since 2 days, will write to
you soon,

[5 DAYS LATER]
O
what's the deal adi? are you no longer interested in having this conversation? I wont bother you about it if you aren't interested enough to respond everyday. I know some days we just cant respond but almost everyday is the ideal.
tell me what's going on. :)

A
OTTTTER,

Since, I've done this Amnesia exercise, I don't know, strangely, I've
become too involved in this, It's like a zombie, I just walk without
anything, if i look at the time and I don't care, well a strange
thingy happened, when i looked at the trees, i almost got a high, like
it was double sighted, there was some feeling, but can't explain in
words

I tried to get over this Amnesia thingy, and another thing, I want to
tell you, I don't dream, like earlier, they used to come regularly,
but now, they don't. it's like the whole restlessness is now
immaterial, I just want to be, exist like this Amnesia, but this is
not the real thingy no :)

As mentioned earlier, with regards to time, before it mattered, but
now, the concept of time does not seem to matter at all.

Yes, with reflection to the question, thought, memory, choices happen,
I don't seem to have a control over them, but when it comes to causes,
i have a small difficulty, but it is also happening

Please do let me know :)

O
ok. start by answering every question I've already asked. make sure nothing is skipped.
then tell me what's up. I see you are in love with the amnesia exercise. I want to see if you are awakening or just getting high on spiritual states. seeing is not a state. states of being come and go. however you feel now WILL change. that which goes back and forth is illusory.

A
yes exactly, that's why, because, the seeing state also was changing
here and there
very true, Thanks a ton

O
!!! (I am not saying don't enjoy the state of bliss! enjoy it fully! let go completely. if you enjoy it now and let it go happily when it goes, you aren't going to feel you need it. what stays untouched by any positive or negative state?)

[AFTER A WEEK OR SO OF NO RESPONSES AND "I WILL RESPOND LATER" "NEED MORE TIME" ETC]

O
we can postpone this as long as you want. i'm volunteering my time to speak with you because you asked. I didn't come to your home and kick your door open haha. and i'm not going to chase you and bother you about anything if you're not interested. maybe you're a little scared of what you will find if we continue (?). or you might just be happy to continue playing amnesiac and settle there for now. that's ok too.

But if/when you do decide to continue, we need to get a regular conversation going again. I ask questions, you answer. ok? once a day when possible. if it is not important enough to you for you to be able to make 10 or 15 minutes a day available for this, that is 100% ok. but if you want to really look and be guided by me, i'll need more sincere effort from you. There is no stress or negative feelings from me. I'm just saying how it is.

[2 DAYS LATER]

A
Sorry, I'm creating a new thread, but in the train, I have deeply enquired, amidst everything, I am able to see that choices, memory and happening clearly, and there is no association, but I am not able to see the cause and effect directly, I know it is one happening, but not been able to see, the thingy that this causes that, I know is also a thought, but not see directly,

O
(ANSWER A PREVIOUS QUESTION:) 2)memory: -can you find your childhood right now? where is it? your most recent shower... where is that? if I ask you to think of a purple flying cat, it appears there in imagination. is this not the same place you see your shower or childhood? is memory not thought/imagination?

see what I am pointing to. look in this direction: are these thoughts the reality? thought is real in d.e. (direct experience) but is the CONTENT of the thoughts truth? think of a pen. now go find a pen. a match for the content of the thought "pen" can be found in reality but which is really real, the thought "pen" or the actual pen?
again, this is all one subject, not many.

and when you're done with that question we can talk about the amnesia experience.

[3 DAYS OF "I WILL RESPOND SOON" ETC]

A
I'm taking a break [form work] of 2 days, with nothing to do, i'd inquire, i'd
write to you by tomm end of day

[3 DAYS LATER, NO RESPONSES]

O
hey adi. no worries, but i'm gonna end the talk for now. we can maybe continue another time, or if you want, you can find another guide. but they will also want you to respond much more often. if you look, 9 out of 10 of your most recent responses have been to tell me that you will respond later. it's ok. I am not saying you should do anything different. just letting you know i'm ending this for now. you can still talk to me any time of course.

I have been setting aside time to talk to you but we haven't been talking. so i'm going to take another client for now who's been waiting a bit for a guide. again, no stress. just doing what I feel is best.

A
:(, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, sounding like Darth Vader, but i'd
get on this :), i really inquired on the train but

O
it's ok darth. we can try again later or I can find you another guide. I am not saying you didn't really inquire but if I cant ever get a response from you more that once or twice a week besides something like "I have been busy but I will really consider and respond fully soon" then I would prefer to be guiding someone who has been waiting for a guide. in the liberation unleashed forum there are often people waiting with no guides so i'd like to volunteer my time to work with someone who will be available to respond frequently. as if it was very important to them. you cant just say it's important, you have to do the work too. but anyway let's give it a couple weeks at least. I have picked up 2 more clients. one seems almost done and the other is not responding so I might be available soon, but 2 weeks minimum ok? or I know lots of good guides and I can hook you up with one.

A
thanks a ton, please do let me know, when you are free, I'd keep some
time rolling :(, I perfectly understand, i have been taking up your
time, although I have deep regards for your patience, please let me
know, when you are done, we can start - i'd respond everyday :)

O
2 weeks from yesterday. 13 days. enjoy your break. :)

User avatar
otterrivers
Posts: 511
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:48 pm

Re: Aditya and otterrivers

Postby otterrivers » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:47 pm

[2 WEEKS LATER]
[COPIED FROM FACEBOOK CHAT STARTING AUGUS 2 2013]

O
alright. no more bullshit. let's continue ok? i'd like to just use the fb messenger if that's ok. just respond here unless you prefer the email.

I'm leaving tomorrow afternoon.... Friday afternoon 5pm pacific coast time. and may not be back until sunday. please get me up-to-date. what is going on with you? what has changed, what has stayed the same? how are you feeling about all of this?

and we will work together every day now ok??? i know things come up and every day is not always possible but almost every day is necessary! if this isn't VERY important to you, there's really no point in having this conversation and we can just skip the "guide/client" thingy and just be friends. i'm ok with that. but if we're going to continue, you have to work with me. you got set up quite nicely because you know pallavi and she is a good (internet) frind of mine. most people have to go wait in the forum for a guide and they just get whoever they get. i hope you will take advantage of this opportunity.
i am volunteering my time to talk with you if you are sincere. it is costing you nothing but your time and sincere looking at direct experience. so no more goofing off ok? i sound strict maybe right now but i am smiling. just playing the role, but i think it is getting through to you, right?

so please (assuming you agree) do as i asked above. let me know what's up with adi lately and we'll move from there. i'll check this again before i leave later today(Friday) but if i don't see a response, i'll just check when i ge back from my trip. bye for now darth.


A
hey Otter, thanks, I've been continuing with the direct seeing, the amnesia thingy, it has been good really blissful so far, but as you mentioned earlier, it is blissful, but its not the truth, likewise, this bliss/amnesia has been keeping me silent, there's this direct seeing also (like, i don't really label at all, I just see), but like you mentioned, this is this void, every time, there's a thought, i know, it's not the truth, its not direct experience, it's more like living as reality,

I wanted to write to you, but I was hoping, you'd get back, because, the thought of me desiring no-self could be the factor, why I'm not able to see direct (of course, its a thought), but, i can see this void, Its blissful, silent, but yes, i know, it's not it

Thanks for replying, I do know, you are volunteering, you are going a total rad job , I'm willing to really do it EVERYDAY, I know, it's needed, but when the thought is arising, there is another thought arising which says, it's not the truth, sometimes, i smile and laugh, but its not absolute

Also, i've been doing well , earlier, travel and work kept me occupied, i'm free and will give you the time allotted

I did go through the video of Alan Watts, to be frank, I'm just walking like that, the motion, but then, the THOUGHT still is haunting (don't know, if i should use that word)

But deep down, I thank Pallavi for connecting me with you

Do let me know, my thoughts, i'd still inquire, this is where it is, please do let me know


O
sounds like you're doing great. see that it is all empty... but make no conclusions about what that MEANS. even the emptiness is empty. it is empty of any actual emptiness.

in hindu/Buddhist language (Sanskrit or pali) it is sunya or shunya which is void. lack of any solid reality. or shunya ta. the "ta" is like the "ness" in "emptiness".
there is something called "shunyata poisoning" it is also called the "advaita trap" i think you see that well.

it's when you say "it is all empty so that means..."
see how destructive this could be to a human life?

in emptiness teaching there is a saying "emptiness is form".

saying "form is emptiness" is also true but they put emphasis on the opposite view because mind has the tendency to see that form is empty and not realize that the void is also everything. it is void of any true void-ness. try this: whack yourself on a head with a stick. was that really empty? sure felt real, right?

you see correctly that no thought is the reality it represents. thoughts only cover up reality. they may be very useful but their ONLY function is to cover reality. like getting a big label that says "tree" and putting it over a real tree. so you're not seeing the tree anymore. just "oh that's a tree. no need to look further". is it really a "tree" or an infinite unique mystery?

so thoughts are not the direct experience. but thoughts are directly experienced now right?

1) you can't make thoughts stop right? they just come like waves reacting to anything that arises (including other thoughts). so what thoughts are you not ok with? is thought ok or do you want it to stop?

2) are you liberated? have you seen through illusion of "self view" beyond all doubt? if not, what is missing?

[NEXT DAY]
O
you don't have to reply every day if you're busy but if you know you're not going to be available, please tell me and tell me when you will be available. then actually respond when you say you will ok? if you can do that, this will work much better.
i will be back sunday.
looking forward to your response when I return

A
yes yes, i can completely see the nothingness, its not nothing, but nothingness. well, i'm able to see the unique mystery, like the thought that i'm peaceful always is there, earlier, i used to go to secluded places and try to be at peaceful (thought, but yes, i'm able to be calm)

With regarding to thoughts, i can't make thoughts stop, they are like waves, they do come and go, well, i'm perfectly okaay with thoughts, earlier, i used to think, this is a thought, that is a thought, but now, i'm perfectly fine with thoughts coming, they might come, but i'm aware that they're not the truth (again the thought), but yes, i'm don't see thoughts stopping, they'd keep coming, i am perfect with thoughts, just that i'm aware that it is a thought (consciously now, like i'm not making an effort to say- yes, it's a thought)

Now, the liberation thingy is dicey, to be frank, I know, something is missing, but i've also not experienced what liberation might be, i'm calm, peaceful and in constant bliss, but i'm yet trying to find out whats missing (to be frank, whenever, i try to find, there's a thought which says, stay peaceful, nothing is missing, everything is)

Thanks, please do let me know your take on this, hope i've clarified

O
that feeling that something is missing ....what if this never goes away? could you accept that as you have accepted that thoughts just happen?

explore that feeling you call "I know something is missing..."
what does it really feel like in the body?

Is it really a feeling of something missing? or is that another thought?


A
well, it's difficult to accept, but whenever, i think about 'is something missing' i just laugh and it's happened many times, when i think of 'something is missing' don't know why, give me till end, i'd try inquiring in-depth. Thanks, shall keep you posted

[2 DAYS LATER]

O
keeping me posted?

there's noting to figure out adi. AND there's nothing that can figure it out. if you try to figure it out, that's perfectly ok. but you will be trying forever.

just tell me this: have you seen through the illusion that the body and mind and feelings are some kind of "being" or "self"? have you seen through this illusion beyond any doubt?

A
sure Otter, thanks a ton, i'm on work today, will reply by tonite, thanks again

A
Otter, I've got a breather on this, will ping you in a short while when morning hits, how're you, by the way

O
i may not be able to answer again for about 24 hours. i hope to see your full response by then.

A
yeah, Otter, I went to the beach, atleast now, I didn't think of the waves, the infinity, anything, but all i felt was something mystic when the waves hit my feet. I did that question 'something is missing', unless, it is asked, I kinda think, otherwise, it is like a mere thought process and It isn't coming often. Now the question have you seen beyond the illusion of being and self - well, indeed, but THE THOUGHT, there is this subtle ego which says, you are nothingness, is it a trap, otherwise, I'm able to surrender, go with the flow, look everything as mystic, the trees, even the animals. do let me know

O
that's fine if the thought is still there. just notice it. is it true? is any thought the truth? even the thought "this thought is not the truth"... is that the truth?

All that matters as far as this conversation, is that it is clearly seen there is nothing at the center. there is no center outside of thought. there is nothing that does anything and there is nothing that anything happens to.

I have a very special set of question's i'd like you to answer. please feel free to rant. no need for short answers.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
6) Anything to add?


A
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There isn't any separate 'self', 'me' 'I' at all, the entity was mentally constructed, these are thoughts which start as language and cling on to everyday setting, the same 'way', 'shape' and 'form' are mentally constructed, there has been no separate self or an identity.


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

As explained, the minutest illusion of Separate self starts when we are named, then, it further translates to I, me and mine, we start heeding much to the illusion of the I, me or mine 'that which was labeled thus' loses meaning and understanding as we have tried to affix a meaning/understanding to them. I used to see things as myself and not as things are.

Now, I see things as they are, devoid of any label/identity, things look like, I am watching it for the first time. for instance, a tree, animal or a bird is a lovely experience to witness, earlier the labels used to give me happiness/bliss, now, i'm happy/blissful and can't figure out why

i'm directly able to see/witness without giving it any meaning/identity


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Earlier, it was like a cook-book or a recipe, i knew the ingredients, had a mental framework about, how the taste would be and how the food looked - but I had not experienced/tasted the food. I don't know, if this is an apt metaphor to use, but i'm directly tasting the food instead of worrying about its contents, form, taste, ingredients

Earlier, in theory, I used to report to you, what i used to think and not what I used to see, for instance, I was thinking about choice/choosing instead of seeing through choice/choosing. From the past few days, i've been seeing things in a better way, i've started to enjoy the subtler finer aspects in life, the breeze, the drizzle of the rain or even the butterflies, if i notice them, there's a smile which props automatically. I've totally gotten the phrase 'go with the flow', earlier, it was not experienced, but the flow is directly experienced.


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There were two things, one, even if was directly witnessing, I could not really tell, if I was really witnessing, because, the ego that you are egoless as a thought was striking me, is it the truth, Also, the selective amnesia episode, made me look directly/witness directly, the final push came, when you mentioned that empty and emptyness and nothing can be figured, it is what is it

this last bit pushed me

when you asked me to look, if there was something mystic in the trees, waves, i was looking that way, and then it hit slowly

but then also, the thought 'have you seen through the illusion', there was fear or the thought that 'something was missing


5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

earlier, i thought that I decided, intended, chose and controlled the events in life, I was thinking and not seeing through. I worked in Public Relations/Public Affairs where creating multiple identities/angling news/spin were part of my everyday life and everyday, I felt, I chose this, i decided this and I had control over it

Now, intent, choice and control are mere thoughts, that i have decided to eat here, i have decided to read this, i have decided to skip this are mere thoughts, they are like waves, they keep coming and I don't intend to make anything happen. I purport to go with the flow, be with life


6) Anything to add?

It was this Amnesia experience, where the thought about dreams struck me. I wasn't able to dream at all, I used to sleep and wake up without the choicest of dreams, this was unusual as i used to dream regularly, but there wasn't any, but this felt peace/blissful and calmness that I started loving the way it was

I should say, I was not regular, without you pushing constantly thanks for constantly pinging me and making sure I replied you often

Thanks a ton Otter, it has been very fortunate that we have met and I thank you for the bottom of my heart, you have been very patient, very understanding and friendly . I should also thank Pallavi, who felt I was ready and should start immediately. Thanks

PS: should i clarify anything, please do let me know - thanks once again

O
wonderful. I have to do a little work. and i'll read over our conversation and see if there's anything I want to clarify further. give it a few hours and check back.

User avatar
otterrivers
Posts: 511
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:48 pm

Re: Aditya and otterrivers

Postby otterrivers » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:24 am

[AUGUST 14 2013]

O
a couple questions for you adi!

1) you said something like "i is a mental construct and we heed that illusion" is this personal? is there anything personal about the illusion? if so, can you
describe please?

A
What i meant was - we take this "I, me and my" personally
and the illusion somehow becomes our very existence.
like my watch, my phone, my career, my achievement, my bike
it gets so imbibed, that people feel, they are known for their x,y,z which are illusory in nature

O
what is experiencing the illusion of separation or the seeing through the illusion?

A
the experiencing the illusion of separation or seeing through the illusion is just happening -
or original being. or our own nature. when i see through the illusion, there's this ' looking beyond thing

O
who's original being or nature?
what exists to have an original nature?

A
just original being/just nature, nobody's
just that.
is.

O
ok. i know it may just be a matter of word usage but if you say "our original nature" i have to ask what you mean by "our"?

A
our original nature as in - that nature that always existed/was - like - not the one we've mentally constructed

O
another way to ask is:
why is the illusion so personal- what makes it so personal? why do we laugh/cry/get angry as aditya?

A
i think, earlier, the conditioning was too deep, construct was too imbibed. that when you laugh, cry or get angry, it is aditya that is getting angry - which never
happend, when i was a kid, when a kid laughs - he just laughs wholly.
slowly aditya laughs, cries, becomes ingrained. - it clings on.
becomes personal because, every activity we do/think/act is that it is aditya - now it's seen it's a mere thought that aditya is laughing, doing, thinking.

how mystic life behaves

O
anything else to say about this question?

A
it's a lovely question

O
haha. ok, next!
In #4) you write, "there was fear or the thought that 'something was missing'." i think i get what you meant as in it might have been part of "the last bit that
pushed you over". but i want to be sure to be very clear so i ask again. "Is anything missing?"

A
see, i didn't know, if the thought 'something was missing' was there. I didn't know, how the experience that i have fully seen beyond illusion felt like
(this also is a thought), but i also had the thought 'what if it's the ego saying that you you have looked beyond', it was thought, which kept coming - when you told
me keep checking ' whenever i went back and pondered ' i would only laugh' - and then when you asked me, just like I have accepted that 'thought comes and go',
would you accept that 'anything missing' is a thought, then I tried to inquire 'is something missing', there was only silence ' i had no answer', it happened
twice/thrice. if you ask me again ' is anything missing', there's only silence, ' no answer seems to come out'
i just thought now 'is something missing', there's only silence

then there was another thought, this came during the second - third question, a month back
'do i deserve this'
this thought did come, twice, thrice, but now, it doesn't


O
yeah. what is there to deserve or not except thoughts?

3) have you experienced lack of separation as reality? or is this just understood intellectually? can you give examples from d.e.?

A
like when I walk on the roads, everything looks carefree, as in, the trees look lively, the animals etc, earlier, when i used to forget the keys, i used to blame
myself, now i know, it's a thought,
now, when i kinda seem to use the word I or me, i tend to smile
and the surrender is happening, when someone scolds, shouts, abuses, i don't seem to take them personally at all, i just walk away.

O
where does the feeling of being begin? where does it end? I have an exercise for you.

with your eyes closed, feel the body. try to feel the boundary between inside and outside. what is inside? bones? muscles? inside what?
where does the feeling end? the sounds you hear, are they happening outside of this feeling?


A
see,
i'm not able to find the boundary per se
like, when i look. but when i think, i'm able to make a random outline, that too with difficulty

O
are you making an outline in thought? or is it a real outline you notice?

A
the outline is thought, but i don't notice a real outline
i'm thinking to draw an outline, that also isn't happening
thought, yes

O
what is inner? what is outer?

A
Still can't find the inner/outer

O
are bones inner?
is the sound you hear outer?
is thought inner?
sorry not trying to make you dizzy haha

A
sorry, i can't find any bone. i can think there is bone, but i'm not able to process

O
it's ok. the looking is all that i'm asking for. only saying what you find is perect.

A
the sound being outer, thought being inner, still no

and i mildly broke down now. don't know why

O
take a inute and relax. explain what is happening.

[NO RESPONSE FOR A FEW MINUTES]

O
just be with it now. breathe. just notice what is felt. when you're ready describe what was felt. what happened?


A
the breakdown. suddenly happens. it's not the first time. i try to wonder why, but the wondering could be a thought
i don't know,

O
it helps to leave the story of "why" etc and bring focus back to the senses. this is direct experience.

A
you say, leave the thought, and focus the senses

O
yes don't tell me what you think aout it yet. describe what you felt. in the body. senses etc
when you had this experience what were the physical feelings? there's nothing to think about. just describe.

A
no physical feelings. just happened, can't even describe
but, yeah, it happens for over 5-15 seconds and silence comes
that's seeing directly

O
what do you mean by break down then? what happens?

A
exactly, i'm not able to know, there's a tear, i kinda cry. and that's it, it stops

O
it's odd. i can't even think of crying without feeling the throat and chest
when i hear 'break down', i think crying or nervousness or panic and these all come with physical feelings. you must mean something else.
when you cry there is no feeling in the chest or throat? stomach? this is what i was asking.

A
only the crying happens, with tears, but there are no feelings in chest,
yeah there's a feeling in stomatch
but only, when i think, i notice

O
yes. notice. i was trying to get you to describe while it was still happening.

A
now i do feel the stomach, throat and eyes. yes, mild tears do come, the stomach kinda slowly rubbles. when it happens


O
this is d.e. Notice the senses. everything else is thought alone.

A
ah

wow

.

wow


O
thought can be helpful but get to the basics. it's easy to say "breakdown" "cry" "sad because..." these aren't the d.e. these are lables that come after right?
so tell me what happened. i was asking you about thoughts being inner or sounds being outer and feelings arose?
if you want to say anything private, let me know and i'll edit it out.

A
if there's something private, i would

O
so... tell me more
tell me about how this lead to the strong feelings. you say this happens other times. is there a pattern? or is it random?
does it always happen at certain situations?

A
to be frank,
this strong feeling, this break-down from my experience, only happened during this enquiry
i think, after this amesia thingy to be precise. i tried to think hard, but yes, very recent only

O
does it feel bad? do you repress it or let it flow?

A
the first time, i repressed, not sure (sorry). but i let it flow, since then

O
so it is short even when you let it flow? does it feel bad? in your opinion?

A
no, i feel a small tingle of loneliness, very minute, it then flows
i don't know, just a thought, it could be because of the city (i recently shifted, and am lonely most of the time), i really don't know

O
ok. well it seems ok. we can look at this further afterwards. i'm sure there are many people more knowledgeable about it than i am.
i just wanted to make sure no harm was being done. it sounds pretty cool.

moving on, i have another question.

A
sure

O
i gather from talking to you and pallavi that you like to get out into nature a lot. parks and the beach etc. does seeing happen there,
or is it everywhere? do you notice it at work as well?

A
everywhere, mostly at nature.

for example, earlier, i was so restless, even at work, i always wanted to go - but the sudden relaxation is everywhere
which i am able to notice
but sometimes, it did affect the work.
I work in building identities
it's oxymoron actually

O
so is it different at work or in nature? how?

A
it's not different
i'm able to see the utmost relaxation at both the places
but, at work, there's this pressing urgency
so i'd rate nature a tad more than work

O
yeah. that makes sense.
ok adi i think we're done for the night. i'll let you know if any more questions come up tomorrow.


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