Guide me please!!!

[julie]

Hi, I'm so thrilled to have help with this. Where I am now: 2 years into concept of no-self running the show. Thoughts tumble on through and I believe them less and less; living more peacefully in general. Have read & spoken with lots of non dualistic guys, self inquiry ect, and have been immersed in gatecrashers & doing those exercises since I found it, this weekend. Very strong sense of self has gotten more crafty about claiming. I see mySELF as more spiritual and deep, which I know is counterproductive. I'm embarrassed at the lack of ease I have looking hard, and how ingrained I am in mySELFing; & that I know I'm missing the simple, most obvious peice. I watch the mind now beaming thoughts like I'm as real as wonder woman and the imaginary watermelon, yet, I still sit here a doer and thinker. so frustrated. please guide, thank you!!!

[smi]

Hello Julie,

My name is Milan and I can guide you if you would like. Before we get started please take a look at the intro page of LU here, it contains our disclaimer and a short video too.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Some guidelines that I would like your agreement on:

1) Agree to post daily or near daily, email if you are not able.

2) Please set aside any other spiritual practices during this inquiry. Instead commit at this time, like you would for a meditation practice, to begin looking for this separate self, this "I"

3) I will ask questions and you answer.... listen very closely to the answers that arise in you.
Answer to the very best of your ability at that time.

4) If you do agree to the above....please share all of what your expectations are to see through the illusion of the separate self, and if there are any concerns/fears about that?

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and are in agreement, we can go ahead and get started.

Milan

[julie]

Hi Milan! Thank you so much, and yes I'm ready to start. Agreed to everything.

I have lots of expectations come up. I think seeing through the illusion would leave complete freedom, end of fear, questions, and show either a defined purpose or lack of need for one. Peaceful, ease, loving are the qualities that I think of. My fear is that I'm dead wrong -- its not better than this, it leaves me unable to connect to friends, family, job and life. My biggest fear around all of it is that I will never get to see the truth.

[smi]

Hello Julie,

I have lots of expectations come up. I think seeing through the illusion would leave complete freedom, end of fear, questions, and show either a defined purpose or lack of need for one. Peaceful, ease, loving are the qualities that I think of.

Your expectations are very reasonable. However from my experience all expectations are just that – expectations – a mind made stuff that have often very little or even nothing to do with the world as it is. Of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with having expectations, but expectations might interfere with looking and just plain living. So for now I would suggest you simply accept expectations as just that – a mind made stuff and put them aside for a while so that you can have a fresh look at what actually is.

My fear is that I'm dead wrong -- its not better than this, it leaves me unable to connect to friends, family, job and life. My biggest fear around all of it is that I will never get to see the truth.

Same goes for fear. Fear is also only a mind made stuff. Fear itself cannot hurt you in any way. I would also recommend you simply put this fear aside for now as best you can.

If I say that there is no separate self in real life at all and that never was, what comes up?

What thoughts and feelings come up? How does body react? What happens?
Please describe only what shows up for you in direct experience and as best you can avoid too much thinking and analyzing. Just simply look and report what happens.

Thanks and kind regards
Milan

[julie]

If I say that there is no separate self in real life at all and that never was, what comes up?
first frustration, anger, I've been duped. what a waste of time. meaningless tension. then relief. ahhh, cut the crap. can release meaningless tension.

How does body react? What happens? body feels strong and deep, like it was on board with this until butterflies in stomach up through chest, when thought comes in its possible to experience no separate self.

I see how I have a very short window before mind takes over and starts to create & claim stuff. just answering the question though there was a place inside that seemed to be able to bypass mind chatter because it was already there going I knew what the question is and you already have the answer in your journal, don't look its a waste of time, yada yada.

last night I was up in the middle of the night with a cold and looking for self, and couldn't find it anywhere, until I got to MY financial situation where it was all MY fault and the stories pour in.
thanks so much Milan,
julie

this is quite different than what showed up a couple days ago when I was doing this exercise.

[smi]

If I say that there is no separate self in real life at all and that never was, what comes up?
first frustration, anger, I've been duped. what a waste of time. meaningless tension. then relief. ahhh, cut the crap. can release meaningless tension.
How does body react? What happens? body feels strong and deep, like it was on board with this until butterflies in stomach up through chest, when thought comes in its possible to experience no separate self.

Great. Body/mind just reacts in the way it’s been conditioned. If left alone it just unwinds itself on its own. Could you explain please what did you mean by “when thought comes in its possible to experience no separate self”?

Just a few questions to consider: Is no separate self an experience? Is experience of no separate self conditioned by thinking? What kind of thinking? Are there any specific thoughts necessary to experience no separate self? In life do you perceive experience as a noun/an object or a verb? Does experiencing happen to someone/something or is there just experiencing?

I see how I have a very short window before mind takes over and starts to create & claim stuff. just answering the question though there was a place inside that seemed to be able to bypass mind chatter because it was already there going I knew what the question is and you already have the answer in your journal, don't look its a waste of time, yada yada.

Great, there is opening happening. What was the difference between when you answered this question first on your own to your journal before and now?

last night I was up in the middle of the night with a cold and looking for self, and couldn't find it anywhere, until I got to MY financial situation where it was all MY fault and the stories pour in.

I believe it would be good to examine thinking at this point. I’ll just throw in few questions and please just take your time, look, examine, question, observe and see how it is for you. So here they are:

Close your eyes... and observe thoughts come and go...

Where do thoughts arise from? Where do thoughts go to?
Can you stop a thought that has arisen?
Can you choose to only think thoughts of a blue flower?
Can you choose to NOT think about a pink elephant?
and finally, here & now,
Can you think a thought?
Are you the thinker of thoughts?
Are they YOUR thoughts?

After you’ve answered those questions, please take another look at the story you described above about your financial situation and thinking how it was your fault and see if there is any difference.

this is quite different than what showed up a couple days ago when I was doing this exercise.

Fantastic, keep looking :)

p.s. It might be a good idea for you to learn how to use quote function of the forum. It is so much easier to read and to respond. Instructions are on this linkhttp://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660. And I would recommend you write first your answers in some word processor and when finished just copy/paste text to LU board as there are some glitches and you might accidentally get logged out and thus loosing what you’ve written.

[julie]

Could you explain please what did you mean by “when thought comes in its possible to experience no separate self”?

oops I actually didn't mean that -- sorry. I meant to type until thought comes in there didn't seem to be a separate self.

Is no separate self an experience?

I guess not, no separate self just is.

Is experience of no separate self conditioned by thinking?

I feel no, but I honestly can't tell whether it is my sneaky thought claiming this is true or if I have experienced no separate self without thinking - preference - desire.

Are there any specific thoughts necessary to experience no separate self?

not to bring in the experience so much but I seem have thoughts about my thoughts to realize that i'm listening to them. -- noticing whats going on and then calling it labeling, watermelon, etc. seems to unfocus the mind based perception.

In life do you perceive experience as a noun/an object or a verb?

verb

Does experiencing happen to someone/something or is there just experiencing?

ah! amazing question. eyes watered, what a jolt that was. experiencing is just happening, not to personally activate a person and then disengage & activate again -- pow, bam, zoom. I realize how true experiencing is happening is, and how much I've been riding the 'happens to me' train. wow. I will continue to check in on this as I'm working today.

What was the difference between when you answered this question first on your own to your journal before and now?

what came up before was first 'yes!' followed by feelings of jaded cynicism, calling it wishful thinking, a similar but bigger physical reaction, more nervous, some dread, more fear of screwing up

Where do thoughts arise from? Where do thoughts go to?

immediate reaction - nowhere to nowhere -- then from mind:they aren't all that original generally, its like they come from an invisible storage locker to floating into nothing, presumably back into the locker to build on itself. thought looms.

Can you stop a thought that has arisen?

no

Can you choose to only think thoughts of a blue flower?
Can you choose to NOT think about a pink elephant?

no, neither. Trying to do either just started a concert of thought, with the first one in the foreground with new thoughts around it and the other trying to be background, yet still there.

and finally, here & now,
Can you think a thought?

no I have to wait for it to show up.even when I gave it a broad topic 'lets think about this food situation' it took a while for it to show up, and whatever I am seemed to have no input, I was waiting & reading the thought to receive its direction.

Are you the thinker of thoughts? no!
Are they YOUR thoughts?

no! holy cow! I knew that intellectually, but here really experienced it at a much different level.

please take another look at the story you described above about your financial situation and thinking how it was your fault and see if there is any difference.

wow I couldn't even get close to that story with any kind of credibility. I don't know why the situation is the way it is, but at this moment I am not able to engage or feel inside my body that that thinking was true or valid.
OMG.
Thank you thank you
julie



I'm not the thinker.

[smi]

Does experiencing happen to someone/something or is there just experiencing?

ah! amazing question. eyes watered, what a jolt that was. experiencing is just happening, not to personally activate a person and then disengage & activate again -- pow, bam, zoom. I realize how true experiencing is happening is, and how much I've been riding the 'happens to me' train. wow. I will continue to check in on this as I'm working today.

Fantastic. Yes, please keep looking.

What was the difference between when you answered this question first on your own to your journal before and now?

what came up before was first 'yes!' followed by feelings of jaded cynicism, calling it wishful thinking, a similar but bigger physical reaction, more nervous, some dread, more fear of screwing up

During investigating a lot of emotion may come up. It is very common and normal. When we experience an emotion there are usually some physical sensations accompanied by thinking. Thoughts accompanied with physical sensations might appear more believable, but check that. Just look behind all that. Are those thoughts true? Are they your thoughts? Do you control them? Can you choose/unchoose them? Do you have to make them happen or make them go away? How? Are they automatic?

I'm not the thinker.

Yes, excellent :)

In the very first post you also mentioned that you identify as a doer. Please read these two Ilona’s articles about trick of language and labelling (and please do the exercise):

http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... guage.html
http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html

Afterwards just write about how was your experience doing labeling exercise and anything at all. Just allow whatever wants to be said/written down to come. :)
And please just keep looking. Question everything. :)

[julie]

so I spent most of the day in the exercise.1/2 time 'I' did things. When 'I' was chopping bok choy or massaging or listening I noticed that my mind and body would get agitated. just having that I am before the action caused feelings of burdened, annoyed, overworked, pressured. The body tensed and worked to 'do it right'. oddly some of the chatter during these times was 'how long does this I am part have to keep going'. which is actually hysterical since I is this minds very favorite subject.

When it turned into just chopping, massaging, listening it was much more peaceful, body relaxed and easily did what it was doing. it was awesome. loved it. I don't think that I got where the exercise was leading though, in this part it was like I became a ghost, but still hovered somewhere nearby. and, this may be why I stay in remedial gate class for a long time: I was not able at all to have a glimpse simply of experience experiencing. There was me in the foreground and me in a hazy backdrop. me me me me me. ugh.

question: when you say question everything, what specifically does that look like?

[smi]

Hi Julie,

Thanks for your response. I'll start with your last question.

question: when you say question everything, what specifically does that look like?

Instead of trying to answer, I'll just demonstrate what I meant by showing you on your response to that labelling exercise. But before that I'll just give you one more demonstration about labelling.

Imagine that you’re hungry and you go to a well-known restaurant with this famous chef that prepares most delicious food you can get. You sit down start reading a menu and instead of ordering the food you start chewing on the menu and then wonder why it doesn't taste so good. So basically the food is what’s real and the menu is just a label that is pointing or hinting at the food.

Language is all about labels. It never is the real thing. It always points to something either real, imagined or even itself.

Another useful analogy is the one Ilona likes to use quite often about chair, university and Santa. The word chair is obviously pointing to something real. University is not real. There are buildings, rooms, people visiting those rooms, there is teaching and learning happening, but university itself does not exist. It is only a label. Now Santa is entirely fictional. It points to nothing at all. It is just an idea, a concept.

so I spent most of the day in the exercise.1/2 time 'I' did things. When 'I' was chopping bok choy or massaging or listening I noticed that my mind and body would get agitated. just having that I am before the action caused feelings of burdened, annoyed, overworked, pressured. The body tensed and worked to 'do it right'. oddly some of the chatter during these times was 'how long does this I am part have to keep going'. which is actually hysterical since I is this minds very favorite subject.

Great, you noticed in the first part of the labeling exercise that thought “I” makes everything more heavy, or “the action caused feelings of burdened, annoyed, overworked, pressured” in your own words.

When it turned into just chopping, massaging, listening it was much more peaceful, body relaxed and easily did what it was doing. it was awesome. loved it. I don't think that I got where the exercise was leading though, in this part it was like I became a ghost, but still hovered somewhere nearby. and, this may be why I stay in remedial gate class for a long time: I was not able at all to have a glimpse simply of experience experiencing. There was me in the foreground and me in a hazy backdrop. me me me me me. ugh.

Looking with the understanding that thoughts are just thoughts arising from nothing and then disappearing back into nothing and knowing that there is no control over what thoughts show up and where are they pointing at, what makes the thought “I” different than any other thought? Why are some thoughts more believable than others?

You also noticed that when there are just verbs without “I thought” (only chopping, massaging, listening for example) everything is still happening but with greater ease.

I would question this thought “I became a ghost“. What makes this thought different or more believable than any other thought? What is this thought pointing at? “but still hovered somewhere nearby” So where was it? What was it? How did it look like? Could you touch it, smell it, taste it, hear it?

“this may be why I stay in remedial gate class for a long time” Again, where is this “I” that stays in remedial class? What is this “I” pointing to? Did “I” think of that particular thought? Can thought “I” think? How?

“I was not able at all to have a glimpse simply of experience experiencing.” How can a thought experience experiencing? Isn’t experiencing already effortlessly happening all the time on its own? Isn’t experience already experiencing? What is that “I” that needs to own experience?

Best regards
Milan

[julie]

Thanks so much Milan,
I'm trvalling until monday, so on a iPad. i cant seem to use the quote function, so hopefully it will come out clearly.

Thank you for the labeling examples, that really helped. It is astounding how the illusion is so prevalent. I'm looking forward to telling you that I have stopped eating menus.

As far as the ghost I said I became, it is all thought, and no I don't find how that thought would matter more than another. I felt it was hovering because It seemed like I had a part in moving from one thing to the next, but no, that couldn't have been the case. Just a negating thought. I cannot see, hear, taste , touch or smell I or the ghost of I.

Where is I that stays in remedial class? When I ask I feel that in the pit of my stomach. Fear. Confusion. Where the heck is I?
Who will be there to keep guard if I'm not here? This is what came up even though I knowsomewhere that no I has ever been there to keep guard, and arguably ifvtherevwas one, there were some pretty poor guardings going on.
Whew! I feel like the attachment to the idea of separate self is about security, is that weird?

To keep going, that I points to everything : body, will, function,fear , emotion, brain that leads the way; only to have each thing dismissed until the I points to nothing . This time the empty place feels open, expansive and calm.

Yes I see how I am looking to have experience somehow confirmed in thoughts. As if that makes any sense. Experience is all there is in reality and my illusion isn't going to clarify that . Lol!
Thank you so much! Julie

[smi]

Hello Julie,
That’s okay about not being able to use quote function for a while. Today my main computer died so I am also writing this on my small netbook which makes it so much more difficult with its tiny screen and keyboard. And that's why I'm responding a bit latter today. :(

Where is I that stays in remedial class? When I ask I feel that in the pit of my stomach. Fear. Confusion. Where the heck is I?
Who will be there to keep guard if I'm not here? This is what came up even though I knowsomewhere that no I has ever been there to keep guard, and arguably ifvtherevwas one, there were some pretty poor guardings going on.
Whew! I feel like the attachment to the idea of separate self is about security, is that weird?

Yes, it may be very frightening and confusing in the beginning. However this too shall pass. So, there are sensations in the pit of stomach, and “a story that something bad might happen”? So what? Are they your sensations, your stories, your fear, your confusion? What makes all of that yours? Who or what is being guarded against who or what?
And yes indeed, idea of separate self is all about wanting security and wanting to survive.

To keep going, that I points to everything : body, will, function,fear , emotion, brain that leads the way; only to have each thing dismissed until the I points to nothing . This time the empty place feels open, expansive and calm.

Yes, just like the university analogy with its buildings, rooms, people, teaching, etc. since yesterday. We also speak university did this or that, but did it really? Can a label “university” or “I” or any other label actually do anything or is it just a figure of speech?

Just observe what your body does, how thoughts appear, how sensations come and go. Is a thought "I" really some active agent that somehow makes things happen? Try it, test it, observe. See if there is any relation between action and thought.

Yes I see how I am looking to have experience somehow confirmed in thoughts. As if that makes any sense. Experience is all there is in reality and my illusion isn't going to clarify that . Lol!

Nice. Fantastic.

How does what you’ve seen so far manifest in your life? Is there any difference in perception? Are there any “sticking points”?

What would your response to this statement today be: »There is no separate self in real life at all and that never was.«

Kind regards
Milan

[julie]

Hi Milan,
thank you so much for your words. sorry to hear about your computer, hope its up and running soon :)

fright; who cares indeed! hunh. can't find the root of that either. I can see both the truth of the illusion and the illusion in operation, but the illusion is starting to waver as you ask these questions. Oddly although I thought I had contemplated much of this before, I skimmed the surface & truly hadn't looked deeply; 'already know that' thinking would divert attention to something else.

are they your sensations, your fear, your confusion?

no, they do not belong to a me, they are sensations, fear, confusion that pass through. there is no housing for them, no place where there is attachment or ownership.

who or what is being guarded against who

I guess the illusion is being guarded by the attachment to illusion. so thought is being guarded by thought. nervousness arises as typing is happening. flurries in the solar plexus, typing is happening, looking is happening. I'm not there. panic spreads through head, thoughts of needing to protect self whizzing by, even a replay of my fathers lectures on staying safe, practical, planning, realistic. live in the real world. I've got to protect myself. says alot. wow. observing body, thoughts, flutters, seeing themind coming in to tell me how I can fix these horrible thoughts and help me to find the truth. wow. mind creates a drama to be solved by the mind. feelings of relief, bravvery come through. what a basket case. it really is comical. I can see how I'm still depending on my thoughts to confirm the illusion, even though it is pretty apparent that this whole thing makes no sense. like a teeter-totter.

the answer is I cant find an answer. there is no one to guard. life is happening.

is the thought I an active agent to make something happen

no, thought does not make things happen. things happen and thought claims it. I am with my grandbaby today. so there would be an action by the baby, julie wondering about that action, some sort of active response and then the thought of why the response was or wasn't appropriate. no/yes, you do this because of ....

how has this manifested in my life, are there any stivking points?

My me thoughts have had much less impact since this conversation has started, and have spent lots of time looking for contradictions and the source of I. I am much more aware of labeling and in playing with the baby was marveling at the example of true freedom. today in looking at thinking and action, I realized that thinking, planning or research is also a part what is happening and not done by a separate self. my sticking points seem to be all about fitting into the world, 1st chakra stuff-- Ive always done it this way, most everyone lives this way, I will be an unaccepted freak that is unable to support myself in this world. I will continue to go into these, they are not true but dependence on these beliefs seems to be intact.

there is no separate self in real life and there never was

true. wishing I were experiencing it all the time. apparently I am, but don't realize it. sheesh. the never was part is a little abrasive, like salt in the wound. much better than volcanic reaction last time.

good night, and thank you so much again; this is incredibly generous of you to do, and so helpful.
julie

[smi]

Hi Julie,

sorry to hear about your computer, hope its up and running soon :)

It must have been a glitch of some sort as now it is working again :)

fright; who cares indeed! hunh. can't find the root of that either. I can see both the truth of the illusion and the illusion in operation, but the illusion is starting to waver as you ask these questions. Oddly although I thought I had contemplated much of this before, I skimmed the surface & truly hadn't looked deeply; 'already know that' thinking would divert attention to something else.

Yes, and yes again, honest looking is the key.

no, they do not belong to a me, they are sensations, fear, confusion that pass through. there is no housing for them, no place where there is attachment or ownership.

Yes, just experience passing through. :)

I guess the illusion is being guarded by the attachment to illusion. so thought is being guarded by thought. nervousness arises as typing is happening. flurries in the solar plexus, typing is happening, looking is happening. I'm not there. panic spreads through head, thoughts of needing to protect self whizzing by, even a replay of my fathers lectures on staying safe, practical, planning, realistic. live in the real world. I've got to protect myself. says alot. wow. observing body, thoughts, flutters, seeing themind coming in to tell me how I can fix these horrible thoughts and help me to find the truth. wow. mind creates a drama to be solved by the mind. feelings of relief, bravvery come through. what a basket case. it really is comical. I can see how I'm still depending on my thoughts to confirm the illusion, even though it is pretty apparent that this whole thing makes no sense. like a teeter-totter.

the answer is I cant find an answer. there is no one to guard. life is happening.

Yes, beautiful. Just keep looking. It is definitely “untangling”. Life is happening, indeed. :)

how has this manifested in my life, are there any stivking points?

My me thoughts have had much less impact since this conversation has started, and have spent lots of time looking for contradictions and the source of I. I am much more aware of labeling and in playing with the baby was marveling at the example of true freedom. today in looking at thinking and action, I realized that thinking, planning or research is also a part what is happening and not done by a separate self.

Yes, that’s it. :)

my sticking points seem to be all about fitting into the world, 1st chakra stuff-- Ive always done it this way, most everyone lives this way, I will be an unaccepted freak that is unable to support myself in this world. I will continue to go into these, they are not true but dependence on these beliefs seems to be intact.

What makes those thoughts more believable than any other thought? Isn’t that just more of the “mind stuff” belonging to no-one? So, there is probably an expectation that something radical will change about your life when recognizing no-self? What will change? How will life be different than it already is? Does anything need to change?

there is no separate self in real life and there never was

true. wishing I were experiencing it all the time. apparently I am, but don't realize it. sheesh. the never was part is a little abrasive, like salt in the wound. much better than volcanic reaction last time.

So sometimes there is recognition that there is no “I” or self experiencing life and sometimes there isn’t? Does even that belong to anyone? Does even that make any sense? Again, what needs to change? Is there an expectation that there must be some kind of event or something that will somehow make everything clear and everything will suddenly fall into place and make sense? What is expectation?

Kind regards
Milan

[julie]

hi milan! good to hear your computer is well.

what makes these thoughts more believable than any other mind though?

ah. I guess Im responding to the scariest ones. there is nothing that should give these thoughts credibility except another layer of thinking.

there is probably an expectation of a radical change that will occur when recognizing no self

yup, a holier than thou enlightened self emerges from thought. and there are new responsibilities. ugh. so not true. I feel that I will be so less pressured when the recognition is fully there, which would probably seem like a decent change internally but shouldn't have much to do with radical whole life changing. nothing needs to change, life will continue to flow.

does even that belong to anyone?

no, now that you mention it, this recognition could only come from self, again, i look to the menu for the food. seems that im waiting for a sudden aha moment, keeping clarity as a future one time lightening strike occurance. a stall tactic as superficial as my 3 year old grandson just used at naptime.

what is expectation?

i thoughts , guesses, desires, dreads ultimately about control by self thathave no relevance or bearing on life as at happens.

so now i vacillate in the middle somewhere, knowing that any simple seeing would be the unraveling, and watching the mind complain that no lightening has struck at precisely the right angle yet. realizing that the determination is o be directed to look at flowing life rather than to battle thoughts.

can i ask how long it has been for you and what your experience has been since no self ? forgive me if that isnt appropriate. thank you so much, as always!