guidance would be much appreciated

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Lena
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guidance would be much appreciated

Postby Lena » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:08 pm

Hello,
I would very much like to be guided! I could not believe my eyes when I accidentally found this web-page!!
I have now read a lot from Gateless Gatecrashers and seen a few of the videos. I feel very eager.
I have since some years back, seen a few times the truth that you speak of, that there is really no-one here, but it always seems to slip away again...
Asking myself all the questions I find here on this page, has helped me to start to see what a great illusion I seem to be living...
At the same time I think I have a belief that I am a hopeless case, and afraid of disappointment.

If someone would like to take me on this journey, I would be so grateful!
Lena

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nonaparry
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Re: guidance would be much appreciated

Postby nonaparry » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:22 am

Hi Lena,

So sorry for the delay. I am available to guide if you are ready.

Please read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

We have a few ground rules here:
1. Post at least once a day even if only to say you can't post that day.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from your personal experience only, not from what you've read or heard.

If you agree to these, please tell me how you discovered us and what your journey has been so far.
What are your expectations about what liberation is and how it will be for you?

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Lena
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Re: guidance would be much appreciated

Postby Lena » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:58 pm

Hello Nona!
Thank you for responding, I will be very happy and grateful to be guided by you.
I have read the disclaimer and I agree to the ground rules.

I discovered LU coincidently via FB. I soon realized that this Forum is exactly what I want and almost seem to good to be true:) In comes the doubts though - both of the ability of this Forum and what is offered, and also the doubts that I could ever succeed at really seeing through the illusion of an existing self. I have been battling with this issue of the illusion since 15 years when I first had an experience that I am no-one. That I don´t have an "I".
Since then I have gone through a number of teachers and organizations (maybe not very diligently though) and have had a few more glimpses of no-me. However these experiences, or states, never last.

When I sit down and go through my expectations of liberation I see that there are many. First of all I feel daily that I am in a sort of energetic straight-jacket - nervous, worried and constantly waiting for something (undefined).
I expect, or rather hope, that this will fall away or wont bother me any more.
I want to be loving towards others and at ease with "myself"(haha) . I am living under challenging circumstances and hope to be able to deal with them in a more skill-full way and from a different perspective. That is; without the never-ending me-story at the center. I would like to see where I can contribute to the whole in the best way. I want peace and I want to be happy. There it is.

Look forward to hear more from you!
Lena

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Re: guidance would be much appreciated

Postby nonaparry » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:53 am

Hi Lena,
However these experiences, or states, never last.
Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity "self" is not a State. When you SEE it, the knowledge becomes factual.
For example, did you ever once believe that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy was real? If you did at one point, and don't now, does the experience of discovery last? Or is it that the knowledge that there is no such thing as Santa or Tooth Fairy is just another fact?

Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a State to "abide in". It's not.
When I sit down and go through my expectations of liberation I see that there are many.
Good. Let's look at these expectations to consider if they are likely to occur.
I feel daily that I am in a sort of energetic straight-jacket - nervous, worried and constantly waiting for something (undefined).
I expect, or rather hope, that this will fall away or wont bother me any more.
Some people do report less anxiety and a dropping of seeking. There is no guarantee this will happen for you.
I want to be loving towards others and at ease with "myself"
And if there is no such thing as "others" or "myself"? Would that be ease-full or stressful?
I am living under challenging circumstances and hope to be able to deal with them in a more skill-full way and from a different perspective. That is; without the never-ending me-story at the center.
Habitual, or conditioned, thoughts and behaviour do not simply disappear; after all, they've been habit for xx years! However, once the illusion of self has been SEEN, you can reliably check again and again, whenever conditioning shows up, whether there is a never-ending-me in some centre at all.
I would like to see where I can contribute to the whole in the best way.
That sounds like a worthy ambition. Some people report finding more compassion but less ambition.
I want peace and I want to be happy.
If stress and unhappiness were your only path to what you want, would you take it? Please answer this carefully.


If you choose to continue, how we work is like this: I ask questions, and you answer them from your direct experience with 100% honesty, even when you think your answer may be "wrong". There is no such thing as a wrong answer; there is only your answer.

"Direct experience" as we use it here refers to sensations-prior-to-thought. Hearing, seeing, touching, tasting, smelling, all before mind kicks in and explains what it thinks is going on.
Reporting from direct experience can take a little getting used to, so I invite you to try reporting from your direct experience right now what is happening around you.
I will demonstrate.
Seeing various colours against which black squiggly marks appear is happening; feeling of localised pressing on smooth surfaces; pressure of weight against smooth flexible surface; low-pitched drone is heard with crackling sounds also occurring; familiar taste of full-bodied slightly charred liquid; indescribable scent of warmth on the breeze.

Check what is happening here and now in your direct experience, and give describing it a go.

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Lena
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Re: guidance would be much appreciated

Postby Lena » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:27 pm

Hi Nona,
thank you for your reply.


Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity "self" is not a State. When you SEE it, the knowledge becomes factual.
Ok, so why does that seeing that I experienced (seeing suddenly that I was not thinking my thoughts, like coming out of a shell, laughing - and at the same time I instinctively KNEW that this was not going to last) not become factual? Maybe this question is irrelevant, but never the less...?
For example, did you ever once believe that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy was real? If you did at one point, and don't now, does the experience of discovery last? Or is it that the knowledge that there is no such thing as Santa or Tooth Fairy is just another fact?
Yes, good point.
And if there is no such thing as "others" or "myself"? Would that be ease-full or stressful?
That is such a good question, it´s funny I feel a bit stressed when I think about that, but laughing at the same time.
If stress and unhappiness were your only path to what you want, would you take it? Please answer this carefully.
I am not sure what you mean. I am already experiencing stress and unhappiness, so what would be the difference? If you mean more of that, and for a limited time, yes I would. If it would be 30 more years of higher stress and unhappiness and what I want for the last 5 of my years, then probably not. I am not sure I understand or why you ask. To scare me off or prepare me for the worst?

So, my expectations need quite some adjustments. I am curios of what I can expect? Would you share your experience?

So, trying out direct experience and finding it challenging.
A sense of subtle energy in my torso, and more intense in my belly. A soft sensation on my foot. Sharp, rhythmical,
short sounds. A sharp contrast between light and black.
I can't escape the fact that I look at for ex a chair. It´s like I don´t have to think the thought "chair" to just know that it is a chair. So now it is like I try to be super-fast to experience something, to "get there" before thought... Doesn't really work.
I will try this some more.
Thank you for taking time with this!
Lena

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nonaparry
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Re: guidance would be much appreciated

Postby nonaparry » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:24 am

Hi Lena,
Ok, so why does that seeing that I experienced (seeing suddenly that I was not thinking my thoughts, like coming out of a shell, laughing - and at the same time I instinctively KNEW that this was not going to last) not become factual?
I'll ask you a question in return: Which can you have full, unequivocal confidence in: actual immediate experience or mental constructs? Which of these is completely beyond doubt?
And which did you most trust after that experience?
And if there is no such thing as "others" or "myself"? Would that be ease-full or stressful?
That is such a good question, it´s funny I feel a bit stressed when I think about that, but laughing at the same time.
So take a good look: is the laughter a bit nervous, conveying some fear? Or is it joyous, conveying freedom?
If stress and unhappiness were your only path to what you want, would you take it?
I am already experiencing stress and unhappiness, so what would be the difference? ...I am not sure I understand or why you ask. To scare me off or prepare me for the worst?
Neither to scare you off nor to prepare you for the worst!! Just to gauge your willingness to step outside your comfort zone to really look at what I'm pointing to. To learn whether you have conditions that must be met by your experience in order for it to be acceptable.
I am curios of what I can expect? Would you share your experience?
I won't share my experience at this time. Each experience is unique, so any expectation could become an obstacle to your seeing through the illusion for yourself.
trying out direct experience and finding it challenging.
Yes; that's why I thought some practice might be useful.
I can't escape the fact that I look at for ex a chair. It´s like I don´t have to think the thought "chair" to just know that it is a chair.
Actually, you DO have to think the thought to know it's a "chair"; without thought, you wouldn't have a label for it.

Right here right now, this body is occupying a separate seat for one person, with a back and four legs, commonly labeled "chair".
But that is not my direct experience! In my direct experience, the area of the body I label the bum or backside is pressing into a firm but flexible field.
The pressure is my direct experience; "chair" is a thought.
I invite you to check it!
There is a word, or label, "chair". You cannot sit in it, stand on it, or use it as a piece of furniture. It's a word, a label, a piece of language.
There is a physical object also called "chair" which you can sit in, stand on, and otherwise use as a piece of furniture. The label and the object are not the same thing, even though they are both said "chair".
Unless we can separate the label from the object, we might confuse them as being the same thing! But one is a word and the other is an object; they are completely different Types.

This is really important!
SOME labels correspond to physical entities in reality, like the label "chair". Others do not. One example of a label which does not correspond to an entity in reality is "unicorn".
So now it is like I try to be super-fast to experience something, to "get there" before thought... Doesn't really work.
Try this little experiment.
Sit at a table with feet flat on the floor and the palms of the hands on the table's surface. Close the eyes and notice the breath for a minute or so. Is the breath shallow or deep? Is it smooth or jagged? What do you notice about the rise and fall of the chest during breathing? Do the shoulders or arms move as you breathe? Notice.
Then move attention to the feet. What sensation(s) are happening with the feet? Is there something hard under them? or soft? Are they warm or cool? Is the entire expanse of foot making contact with something, or only part of it? Is there any tension in the feet or are they completely relaxed? Check it.
Then move focus to the buttocks. What sensations are present? Is the feeling of the surface on which they are resting smooth or textured? Is it firm or soft or in-between? What else can you notice about the sensations present?
Then move focus to the hands. Feel the texture, if any, of the surface on which they rest. Is the surface cool or warm? Is it dry or damp? Do the fingers make full contact or are there places where contact is not made?
Then move focus to other parts of the body, noticing any sensations. See if you can describe the sensations themselves.

How did that go?

It's a good idea to practice reporting direct experience as that is what we're going to be relying on here.


So now we will begin.

Let this thought in, sit with it for a bit and write what feelings, thoughts, tensions, resistances come up:

There is no I at all, no separate self that lives in this body and is a manager, doer, thinker of thoughts. None whatsoever. There is no experience of I, as it does not exist. All there is life flowing freely as this.
There is no watcher, observer, container of life.


Write all that shows up.

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Lena
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Re: guidance would be much appreciated

Postby Lena » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:48 pm

Hi Nona, thank you for your reply
I'll ask you a question in return: Which can you have full, unequivocal confidence in: actual immediate experience or mental constructs? Which of these is completely beyond doubt?
And which did you most trust after that experience?
After reading what you explain to me further down, about labels and actual objects, definitely actual experience. And I guess I then went back to trust conditioned mental constructs. Habit. Thanks for explaining.
And if there is no such thing as "others" or "myself"? Would that be ease-full or stressful?

"That is such a good question, it´s funny I feel a bit stressed when I think about that, but laughing at the same time."

So take a good look: is the laughter a bit nervous, conveying some fear? Or is it joyous, conveying freedom?
When I first read this I noticed the laugh was joyous.
Neither to scare you off nor to prepare you for the worst!! Just to gauge your willingness to step outside your comfort zone to really look at what I'm pointing to. To learn whether you have conditions that must be met by your experience in order for it to be acceptable
Very willing. I don't think I have such conditions. Not that I know of.
There is a word, or label, "chair". You cannot sit in it, stand on it, or use it as a piece of furniture. It's a word, a label, a piece of language.
There is a physical object also called "chair" which you can sit in, stand on, and otherwise use as a piece of furniture. The label and the object are not the same thing, even though they are both said "chair".
Unless we can separate the label from the object, we might confuse them as being the same thing! But one is a word and the other is an object; they are completely different Types.
Yes I can see that! Thank you for making that distinction clear, it is really obvious when I look at it now. The thought "sound of cars" is NOT the actual experience. It is touching to realize this. Not even the label "sound" is the actual experience, there is only hearing. It is beautiful.
How did that go?
Yes, this worked good I think. I have done some meditations before, where I have noticed how little of the body I actually experience, and how quickly thought adds the image of my body when I close my eyes and notice my body. I noticed now that I experience no borders of my body. I experience falling and rising of something, and a tiny soft tingling "behind me" rising and falling (sweater following the rising and falling of my shoulders. When the label "sweater" is dropped, or just seen as the label and not the thing, there is only tingling.)
Feet: hardly any sensations at all there. Very soft sensation in my hands, don't know what is hand and what is table. Only sensation.
Is this kind of what you mean?
Let this thought in, sit with it for a bit and write what feelings, thoughts, tensions, resistances come up:

There is no I at all, no separate self that lives in this body and is a manager, doer, thinker of thoughts. None whatsoever. There is no experience of I, as it does not exist. All there is life flowing freely as this.
There is no watcher, observer, container of life.

Write all that shows up.
First a small fear like a small chill. Emptyness. Helplessness, like falling. But all this very subtly.
"No watcher" - when I look, thought says "sure there is! "
It is like I slowly disappear, and it does not feel good.
Thoughts that say "yes I have seen all this before and now I cannot see it… bla bla. Measuring and comparing what you write with memories of having seen this…

This is what comes up. After a while, sitting with this, it is just words, and nothing more really happens. I will sit with it again tomorrow.

Thank you so much Nona,
/Lena

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Lena
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Re: guidance would be much appreciated

Postby Lena » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:58 am

Hi again Nona,
just sitting again with the sentences you wrote.
I feel everything is very very empty, and not good, neither bad, just empty.
There is a small fear sometimes, but not all the time.
Confusion also happens.

I am mesmerized by the discovery last night, that the label is not the object. I am trying it out on my experiences as I sit here.
Just saw that the thought "angry, blaming mom, walking across the floor in the next room" is really not the actual experience. Therefore the feelings I sense in my body because of that thought, are not reliable AT ALL. I have been taking them as a confirmation. Wow, I guess I fool myself in this way all day long.
Also contemplating that the label "I" is not EVEN referring to a real object, my head starts to explode.

Lena

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Re: guidance would be much appreciated

Postby nonaparry » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:56 am

Hi Lena,

Good work!!
I noticed now that I experience no borders of my body. I experience falling and rising of something, and a tiny soft tingling "behind me" rising and falling (sweater following the rising and falling of my shoulders. When the label "sweater" is dropped, or just seen as the label and not the thing, there is only tingling.)
Feet: hardly any sensations at all there. Very soft sensation in my hands, don't know what is hand and what is table. Only sensation.
Is this kind of what you mean?
Yes, that is exactly what I meant. :-)
"No watcher" - when I look, thought says "sure there is! "
And in direct experience? Can you locate a watcher in sensation-prior-to-thought? Check it!!
Go to a window or door and look out.
Just watch.
Okay, did a Watcher leap out of someplace hidden to do the watching? Or did watching simply happen as you stood there?
Thought is based in language and language can be very confusing as it presumes a subject at all times.

Try this interesting exercise:
Write what you are experiencing right here right now using the words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here and now.

Like this—
I am lying in bed. I am hearing the rain, I am typing these words...

Do it for 10 minutes. Check the body; are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

Then for next 10 minutes write without the words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs:
Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the rain.

Again check what is happening in the body.

Now compare the two ways to label experience — is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here now without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
It is like I slowly disappear, and it does not feel good.
How did the writing exercise above go? Did it feel "not good" to write without a subject? Did the "verbing" capture what is happening as well as, or better than, the "subjecting"?
Thoughts that say "yes I have seen all this before and now I cannot see it… bla bla. Measuring and comparing what you write with memories of having seen this…
Sweetheart, you say you've "seen" this before. Tell me, did you "see" it with the eyes in the head? Or did you "see" (understand) it with the mind?
When I write "see" I mean the process of vision, the direct sensation of the eyes. Although "see" can also be used to mean mental activity, as in "I see what you mean", this is not how I'm using the verb here.

Just saw that the thought "angry, blaming mom, walking across the floor in the next room" is really not the actual experience. Therefore the feelings I sense in my body because of that thought, are not reliable AT ALL. I have been taking them as a confirmation. Wow, I guess I fool myself in this way all day long.
Excellent!! This ^^ is the Beginning of the end of suffering.
Also contemplating that the label "I" is not EVEN referring to a real object, my head starts to explode.
Please tell me more about this contemplation. Are you checking the results of your contemplation with your direct experience? What do you experience about this in sensation-prior-to-thought?

Please be sure to bring up any fear that arises so we can investigate it. The truth is this world is not "empty" in terms of connection; it is quite full when you allow yourself to notice the network of all things.

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Lena
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Re: guidance would be much appreciated

Postby Lena » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:19 pm

Dear Nona,
thank you for your reply.
It brought tears to my eyes because I am so grateful for this conversation. You don´t know me, and still go through this with me!
I want to do all the things you suggested and pointed out as thoroughly as I can, so I will reply all tomorrow.
Gratefully,
Lena

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nonaparry
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Re: guidance would be much appreciated

Postby nonaparry » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:55 am

Dearest Lena,
You don´t know me, and still go through this with me!
We have never met, as far as I know, yet we are not separate.

I look forward to your reply.

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Lena
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Re: guidance would be much appreciated

Postby Lena » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:36 pm

Hi Nona!
And in direct experience? Can you locate a watcher in sensation-prior-to-thought? Check it!!
Is there a watcher when I look out the window? No, when I look, there does´t seem to be a someone doing the watching. It just happens on its own. But I notice that there seems to be a habit of referring back to "myself" which gives a sense of a watcher. So where is the "myself" that is referred back to? It is thinking. And then I notice that there seems to be a thinker, instead of a watcher. And is there a thinker? This is where I get a bit stuck since I experience a "me" doing thinking. I experience it as "I" am thinking. But where is the I that is thinking? When I look - it really seems that a conscious "I" am inside my head, behind the eyes and is thinking. It is so silly I then start to giggle, but it still feels as "I" am giggling. Or is it that the "I"-thought immediately claims the experience? Or claims to be the experiencer?
Write what you are experiencing right here right now using the words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here and now.
Now compare the two ways to label experience — is one truer than the other? If so, which one?
This exercise was so interesting. The body gets really tense after a while, writing "I do this, I do that". And such a relief in the body when I got to switch to "writing, seeing, hearing". After a while I just felt like writing "experiencing, experiencing etc." instead of specific verbs. The second is definitely more true. To add the "I" seems like a thought-construct. It gives a sense of separation. "Me" and everything else.
What is here now without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
It is just experience as it is and as a seamless whole. When I start to describe this experience right now, I go to thoughts and then I have a different experience - thinking. But that does not change the actual experience I guess.
Sweetheart, you say you've "seen" this before. Tell me, did you "see" it with the eyes in the head? Or did you "see" (understand) it with the mind?
Oh, I have been using the verb "seeing" as in "experiencing truth" or "knowing in my own experience".
When I write "see" I mean the process of vision, the direct sensation of the eyes.
That is good to know!
Also contemplating that the label "I" is not EVEN referring to a real object, my head starts to explode.
Please tell me more about this contemplation. Are you checking the results of your contemplation with your direct experience? What do you experience about this in sensation-prior-to-thought?
There is vivid direct experience of all sense perceptions, sight, sound, heat, breathing - but when looking for direct experience of "I" my attention goes to somewhere behind the eyes. I do not find anything there exept a slight tension. I looked quite a bit at this "area" or place, and found absolutely nothing and I felt quite different after some time. Hard to describe though. There was more "room" somehow. Or rather space.
The next time I was about to do the same exercise I first looked around at my current direct experiences. Vividly there. But then looking for I - where do I go?? It seemed absurd.
Please be sure to bring up any fear that arises so we can investigate it.
I have not felt any fear, except I woke up in the middle of the night, and there was a thought of this investigation that we are doing, and great fear came. It was only an instant, but it happened twice. I also think I pushed it away but I am not sure. I was not wide awake, so I am not sure if this is something that was of any importance. I don't think I can say anything more about the experience, so seems impossible to investigate.
The truth is this world is not "empty" in terms of connection; it is quite full when you allow yourself to notice the network of all things.
Yes you are right of course! Good point.

A technical question: How do you manage to get at quote within another quote, from the previous post?

Thank you for helping,
Lena

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Re: guidance would be much appreciated

Postby nonaparry » Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:11 am

Hi Lena!

Good work!!!
there seems to be a habit of referring back to "myself" which gives a sense of a watcher. So where is the "myself" that is referred back to? It is thinking. And then I notice that there seems to be a thinker, instead of a watcher. And is there a thinker? This is where I get a bit stuck since I experience a "me" doing thinking. I experience it as "I" am thinking. But where is the I that is thinking? When I look - it really seems that a conscious "I" am inside my head, behind the eyes and is thinking. It is so silly I then start to giggle, but it still feels as "I" am giggling.
Does the habit of referring back to thoughts about "myself" indicate an entity "watcher/thinker" in reality? Or have you merely accepted the apparent implication that language produces, that if there is something watched there must be a watcher, and if there are thoughts there must be a thinker? Check it! Do watching and thinking happen at all without an entity "watcher" or "thinker" showing up to do the watching/thinking?
Is the feeling of "I" giggling an actual I? An entity in reality? Or is it just a sensation + a thought? Check it!
Or is it that the "I"-thought immediately claims the experience? Or claims to be the experiencer?
Can you answer these questions? When an event happens, does mind immediately attach a thought "I did it" after the fact? What is actually claiming to be the experiencer, other than a thought?
To add the "I" seems like a thought-construct. It gives a sense of separation. "Me" and everything else.
Yes. It's a trick of language, all smoke & mirrors. And never questioned — until now!
It is just experience as it is and as a seamless whole. When I start to describe this experience right now, I go to thoughts and then I have a different experience - thinking. But that does not change the actual experience I guess.
Don't guess!! Go to direct experience and Check it!! Does the label alter the experience itself? Or just the way we think about it?
Feet are moving rapidly. I label this "run". Does the rapid movement of the feet alter one whit if I label it "jog" or "trot"? Check it! What if I labeled it "stop" or "halt"?
We use language as if the labels were Truth. But they are not truth; they are only symbols that either refer to something in reality or not.
For example, the label "apple" refers to something in reality. You cannot eat the label "apple", but there exists a fruit which is referred to by the label "apple".
The label "Tooth fairy" does not refer to something in reality. It is an invented character, a fiction.
The labels "I", "me", "self" also do not refer to something in reality. These are also fictitious.
If there were such an entity "I", that is responsible for the events that happen in your experience, wouldn't you be able to find him? Could such an entity, in charge of every experience in every moment, somehow remain invisible?? Check it!!
Except for thoughts about "I", "me", "self", have you any Proof that such an entity exists in reality, separate from all of Life?
Check it!
Oh, I have been using the verb "seeing" as in "experiencing truth" or "knowing in my own experience".
And which of the senses experiences this? Check carefully!
There is vivid direct experience of all sense perceptions, sight, sound, heat, breathing - but when looking for direct experience of "I" my attention goes to somewhere behind the eyes. I do not find anything there exept a slight tension.
Good to notice!!
The next time I was about to do the same exercise I first looked around at my current direct experiences. Vividly there. But then looking for I - where do I go?? It seemed absurd.
Excellent.
Where does the "I" go when you look directly at where you thought it was? Does it go to the place where Santa or Tooth fairy or Batman go when looking directly at where they are "supposed" to be? If none of these can be found in reality, outside of thoughts about them, what does this indicate to you?
I woke up in the middle of the night, and there was a thought of this investigation that we are doing, and great fear came. It was only an instant, but it happened twice. I also think I pushed it away but I am not sure.
Okay, and if it happens again, check if you can welcome the fear, comfort it, ask it what message it has for you. Fear is my kind friend much of the time; it keeps me from walking off cliffs or otherwise putting the body in mortal danger. BUT fear also is often mistaken! I notice I feel fear sometimes when there is no actual danger, just thoughts that set off the alarm bells. When I can look directly at what is believed to be the source of fear, I can respond reasonably to them. If I am in genuine danger, escape may be a good plan. If the only danger is in my thoughts, then investigating those thoughts carefully may be a better plan.

A technical question: How do you manage to get a quote within another quote, from the previous post?
What I do is this: I copy both my question and your answer, click Quote, and then paste. Then I select just my question and click Quote again. I usually delete the extra space between.

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Lena
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:47 pm

Re: guidance would be much appreciated

Postby Lena » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:49 pm

Hello Nona,
thanks for your reply!

Today was weird - when I first read your letter I realized that there is ONLY thought that claims to be the experiencer of an event. I laughed and had a sense of relief and clarity. "It is so simple!" I thought. Then as the day continues the clarity fades and habit takes over. Or habit takes over and clarity fades.
And now when I sit here and answer all your questions I just get confused and am suddenly wondering what we are talking about at all? It seem so obvious that there is a specific person sitting in this chair writing. I am here. Anyway here are my answers as best I could today:
Does the habit of referring back to thoughts about "myself" indicate an entity "watcher/thinker" in reality?
No it does not.
Or have you merely accepted the apparent implication that language produces, that if there is something watched there must be a watcher, and if there are thoughts there must be a thinker?
I find that hard to check, but it sounds very true.
Do watching and thinking happen at all without an entity "watcher" or "thinker" showing up to do the watching/thinking?
Yes, it happens by itself. I cannot stop it!
Is the feeling of "I" giggling an actual I? An entity in reality? Or is it just a sensation + a thought? Check it!
Sensation and a thought that says "I am still here!"
Or is it that the "I"-thought immediately claims the experience? Or claims to be the experiencer?
Can you answer these questions? When an event happens, does mind immediately attach a thought "I did it" after the fact? What is actually claiming to be the experiencer, other than a thought?
Yes it IS a thought! Only a thought. And a thought cannot even experience anything. It is experienced. Wow, that is so simple. So, if there is no experiencer here, then what is left is only experience. Life flowing freely as this, as you said.
Does the label alter the experience itself? Or just the way we think about it?
Feet are moving rapidly. I label this "run". Does the rapid movement of the feet alter one whit if I label it "jog" or "trot"? Check it! What if I labeled it "stop" or "halt"?
No, it does not alter the experience one little bit! Even if we call feet moving rapidly a "halt".
If there were such an entity "I", that is responsible for the events that happen in your experience, wouldn't you be able to find him? Could such an entity, in charge of every experience in every moment, somehow remain invisible?? Check it!!
Except for thoughts about "I", "me", "self", have you any Proof that such an entity exists in reality, separate from all of Life?
Check it!
I don´t know why this becomes so difficult, but I get what you are saying, and still I feel like the manager here. This invisible entity is ME it feels like. I AM it. This body-mind-awareness. When I check now it seems obvious that this IS me. But no, I check again and I have no proof.
Oh, I have been using the verb "seeing" as in "experiencing truth" or "knowing in my own experience".
And which of the senses experiences this? Check carefully!
Well, there has been a direct experiencing that self is only thought and does not exist. It was an insight in the moment and I can only say that awareness was experiencing this, but I don´t know. This is hard.
The next time I was about to do the same exercise I first looked around at my current direct experiences. Vividly there. But then looking for I - where do I go?? It seemed absurd.
Excellent.
Where does the "I" go when you look directly at where you thought it was? Does it go to the place where Santa or Tooth fairy or Batman go when looking directly at where they are "supposed" to be? If none of these can be found in reality, outside of thoughts about them, what does this indicate to you?
I meant that I did not know where to direct attention to look for "I", but I guess the same principle of Batman applies. Where would I look for him i reality?

Arrgh, today was confused.
Thank you Nona!
Lena

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Lena
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:47 pm

Re: guidance would be much appreciated

Postby Lena » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:03 am

Checking things again today:
nonaparry wrote:
Or have you merely accepted the apparent implication that language produces, that if there is something watched there must be a watcher, and if there are thoughts there must be a thinker?
I find that hard to check, but it sounds very true.
No, when I check now I see that I have just taken for granted that if there is sight there must be a seer, if there is sound there must be a hearer, thinking-thinker and so on.
nonaparry wrote:
Do watching and thinking happen at all without an entity "watcher" or "thinker" showing up to do the watching/thinking?
Yes, it happens by itself. I cannot stop it!
That implies of course that there is no "I" to stop it in the first place.


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