Can see there is no separate I, BUT...

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
dparansky
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:07 pm

Can see there is no separate I, BUT...

Postby dparansky » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:56 am

Hi!

It is clear in this bodymind that the sense of self is a phantom, and that like every other "thing," the I is an object that arises in awareness. Nonetheless, there are some points of confusion/suffering: 1. There is the expectation that there will be the realization of an awareness that is all-inclusive and doesn't appear to be encapsulated "in" the bodymind. 2. There is the nagging sense that "I," a householder, must provide financially for the life situation (mortgage, child, out-of-pocket health insurance, etc.) that has taken form. This bodymind has had jobs, and even a career path, but discontent has led things to fall apart. This obligation (and struggle to fulfill it) seems to keep the illusion of a separate self that has to do something in place enough to cause suffering.

I have read the disclaimer, part of Gateless Gatecrashers, and lots of nonduality books (Tony Parsons, Joan Tollifson, Nathan Gill, Rupert Spira, Leo Hartong, Ramesh Balsekar, Nisargadatta, etc.). I am willing to post at least once a day based on experience.

Thank you so much. Tatvamasi.

David

User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 3877
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Can see there is no separate I, BUT...

Postby Canfora » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:46 pm

Hi David and welcome to LU.

Thank you for your nice introduction. I can guide you if you’re OK with it.

Let's start by looking at your expectations.

If you really see there is no self at all, no you separated from the rest of life, how do you expect your life will change, what can this seeing do for you?

Think about this and write what appears. Don't try to give a right answer, be 110% honest instead :)

Canfora

User avatar
dparansky
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:07 pm

Re: Can see there is no separate I, BUT...

Postby dparansky » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:07 pm

Thank you, Canfora, for your willingness to guide! :)

How do I expect my life will change with the seeing of no self? Here is what comes:

1. There will be an end to fear of outcomes (death, financial stuff, illness, emotional suffering, my son's wellbeing, planetary destruction, etc.). This bodymind will not be seen as more important, or necessary to sustain, than apparent others.
2. The nervous system of this bodymind will be released (either quickly or gradually) of its major anxieties and tensions.
3. There will no longer be the sense that awareness is encapsulated "inside" the bodymind. The one Life/Self will be known to permeate every "thing."
4. There will be an end to resisting what is arising in present awareness and grasping for what is not present.
5. Conflict with "others" will diminish in intensity, and there will be little suffering or clinging to thoughts of rightness/wrongness when conflict does appear.
6. There will likely be more spontaneity in what arises as it is not passed through the filter of ego (There will no longer be self-consciousness).

Thank you again, Canfora. Love and gratitude,

David

User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 3877
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Can see there is no separate I, BUT...

Postby Canfora » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:54 pm

It's my pleasure, David :)

Thank you for your clear answers. Expectations can be to progress like having the car brakes always on and trying to drive the car, they can keep you stuck.

I’m not saying some or all of your expectations won’t came truth I’m just asking you to put the expectations to rest and to start looking to your reality with fresh eyes, like if you are seeing things for the first time.

“Forget” for the moment everything you learned in books, videos and conversations with other persons - during this process don’t look for second hand knowledge. Find out for yourself what’s real, here and now. Trust only what you can see in reality.

I'm going to ask you to breath deeply, relax and look at your experience right here, right now. You can see there are thoughts, sensations and a sense of being happening without effort.

What comes up in your experience if I say that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you” and there will never be? What are the thoughts and feelings that arise? Please share what you find.


Additionally:

- You might find helpful to click the 'subscribe topic' link at the bottom of the page, so you know when i post a reply.

- The site often logs you out while you write a reply. You can lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.


Love, Canfora

User avatar
dparansky
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:07 pm

Re: Can see there is no separate I, BUT...

Postby dparansky » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:02 pm

Thank you, Canfora. I didn't know about the "subscribe topic" link. That, and your suggestion to cut and paste, are helpful.

I'll do my best to "forget what I know" and come from direct experience in the moment. Per your suggestion, it is clear that there are thoughts, sensations, and a sense of being happening without effort.

When you suggest that there is absolutely no "me" in any way, shape or form, and there never has nor never will be, here is what comes up:

1. Mind asserts, "I (already) know that."
2. There is an empty, spacious looking, listening, and feeling of the current arisings.
3. Mind also resists that there never has been a "me." It brings up the fragments of stories about "me" the father, the husband, the person who has trouble finding his livelihood, etc. Along with these thought fragments come fear (of not being a good husband, father, money-earner, and subsequently of this life situation falling apart) and anxiety (showing up as tightness in the chest, belly, jaw and neck).

Love,

David

User avatar
dparansky
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:07 pm

Re: Can see there is no separate I, BUT...

Postby dparansky » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:39 pm

Something else came to life in the light of your assertion that there is absolutely no me in any way, shape or form, and never has nor never will be:

It's a strong feeling that seems to be often hidden under the stuff of daily life: a sentimental sadness about the fleeting nature of all of the beauty and love in the life that is usually called mine: "My son," "my wife," "my dogs," etc.

<3

User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 3877
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Can see there is no separate I, BUT...

Postby Canfora » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:51 pm

Per your suggestion, it is clear that there are thoughts, sensations, and a sense of being happening without effort.
Don't believe anything that I suggest David :) When you say "Per your suggestion" are you saying that you believe what I say or that you can see that what I say is real?

Do you have any doubt about what I mean by experience? You can see for yourself - as you live your normal everyday life - if you can experience something that isn't a thought, a feeling or the sense of being. Read this article by Neil if you have doubts about what is direct experience http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html and see if this definition is true for you.
1. Mind asserts, "I (already) know that."
"I (already) know that." it's a thought. Thoughts happen.
2. There is an empty, spacious looking, listening, and feeling of the current arisings.
Reality, here and now. No "I" there.
3. Mind also resists that there never has been a "me." It brings up the fragments of stories about "me" the father, the husband, the person who has trouble finding his livelihood, etc.
Thoughts about the story of "me". Again thoughts happen. And happen, and happen, and happen - that's what mind is, a succession of thoughts :)
Along with these thought fragments come fear (of not being a good husband, father, money-earner, and subsequently of this life situation falling apart) and anxiety (showing up as tightness in the chest, belly, jaw and neck).
It's a strong feeling that seems to be often hidden under the stuff of daily life: a sentimental sadness about the fleeting nature of all of the beauty and love in the life that is usually called mine: "My son," "my wife," "my dogs," etc.
It’s normal to see feelings arising when starting to look. Seeing thought the illusion of self isn’t going to make the “you” or the “others” disappear and there’s a big possibility that you life stays the same. When I saw that the “I” was a belief the characters and the story didn't change - I still have “my husband”, “my son”, “my daughter” and “my dog” in “my life”. I just saw, without a doubt, that the I is an illusion. Nothing of significance is lost. Life goes on after crossing the Gate.

Fear, anxiety, sadness and other emotions are here to teach us something. They are a protective mechanism and you can allow them into your experience.

Try to see them for what they are without labeling them as fear, anxiety, sadness. Just feel them.

Can you see if this emotions are felt by anyone or happening to anyone? Are they personal?

Can you see if there is actually anything that can be harmed by them?

If you look beyond them, can you find an you that needs protection?

Take your time looking at them and tell me what you find.

Love, Canfora


If necessary instructions on how to use the quote function can be found here http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660.

User avatar
dparansky
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:07 pm

Re: Can see there is no separate I, BUT...

Postby dparansky » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:53 am

Thank you, Canfora.

When I said, "Per your suggestion," I just meant that I "followed your instruction" to look and see if I could see that thoughts, sensations and the sense of being happen without effort. And in looking, as I have been doing for a few years, it was clear, as it typically is, that everything happens by itself, and that the "I" comes in and claims what has appeared (after it has already appeared). Don't worry. I'm not believing anything that I am told; I only go with direct experience (but there is still unquestioned belief under the surface that causes suffering).

I cannot actually find a self that needs to be protected, no. And I can see that nothing can actually be harmed by the emotions that arise. But there is still a sense that this apparent bodymind is going to end (to be as things were before it was born), and that with that, there will be the end of the beauty and love that are experienced here.

Love,

David

User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 3877
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Can see there is no separate I, BUT...

Postby Canfora » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:49 am

But there is still a sense that this apparent bodymind is going to end (to be as things were before it was born), and that with that, there will be the end of the beauty and love that are experienced here.
What is this sense made of? Thoughts and feelings? Is there a self beyond them?
I understand what you’re saying David, I talked about the fear of dying when I did this process :)

In direct experience can you find an “I” that experiences experience? Let's look:

There is seeing of the words in this screen – is there a seer separate from the seen?

There are sounds happening around you. Is there a hearer that hears?

Can you find a here and there in your experience, are boundaries real?

Take your time and describe what you see.

Love, Canfora

User avatar
dparansky
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:07 pm

Re: Can see there is no separate I, BUT...

Postby dparansky » Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:26 am

Hi Canfora,

The sense that the apparent bodymind is going to end and all of the related emotions appear as objects. There is no evident me having them. There is, however, still a feeling that being is encapsulated in this body appearance, and although there is no me having the fears, the fearful emotions are felt as undesirable or uncomfortable tensions.

There is no seer to be found that is separate from the seen, and that is clear even with regard to the fearful emotions and related undesirable/uncomfortable sensations.

Here and there only appear as thought objects about how things relate to the body. In actual awareness, it is fairly clear that there is no here/there.

As for whether boundaries are real, when I close my eyes, I can't tell where the body ends and the "external" world begins. With eyes open, there is still the feeling of boundaries between the apparent body that is always appears (as "mine") and other bodies/objects.

Thank you. Love,

David

User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 3877
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Can see there is no separate I, BUT...

Postby Canfora » Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:22 pm

Hi, David.

You seem to have a clear intellectual understanding of what we are pointing in LU, let’s keep inquiring to make this understanding an experiential understanding - that way when thoughts sing they’re siren songs "you" will see they are just thoughts appearing, flowing like all of life.

Please answer the following questions from what you can see here and now, not from what you believe to be true. Take your time looking to the thinking mechanism.

You said:
There is, however, still a feeling that being is encapsulated in this body appearance,
Where you the thinker of this thought? Are you the thinker of all the thoughts that are appearing in awareness at this very moment?

What appeared first, the above tought or the feeling of being encapsulated?

Without labeling the feeling "encapsulated" what would the feeling be - just a feeling or real encapsulation?

Where do thoughts came from, where do they go? Can thoughts think themselves?

Can you see an you choosing what thoughts to think? What thoughts to write?

What happens if I say “don’t think for 10 minutes”? Or think only happy thoughts for the rest of this day? If you can't do any of this, are you in control of thoughts?

If I say think of a cup and drink water from it, could you do it? Can thoughts make reality? Can thinking that a you is real make it real?


Look also to this:
the fearful emotions are felt as undesirable or uncomfortable tensions.
Can you find "undesirable", "uncomfortable", "tensions" when your looking? Or are "undesirable", "uncomfortable", "tensions" only found as thoughts, thoughts that override reality?

Love, Canfora

User avatar
dparansky
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:07 pm

Re: Can see there is no separate I, BUT...

Postby dparansky » Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:01 am

Canfora,

That last line of your last message is very helpful, Canfora. It is very obvious that tensions and undesirable stuff are only found as thoughts that override reality. Objects appearing and disappearing. When the thoughts aren't there, or are seen as only passing clouds, then there's no problem.

Thoughts of feeling encapsulated come before feeling/sensing that I am encapsulated. When the thought isn't there, there's no feeling of being encapsulated. There's just THIS. Just the movement of life. I can't find anything apart from that movement and the knowing of it (which kind of feel like two different things, but kind of not).

Thoughts clearly cannot think. They just appear and disappear. They don't even appear long enough to be solid. I certainly can't see a me that chooses what thoughts to think, or what thoughts to write (or say). All of this just happens. This is very clear (and was in experience, not just intellectually, before I started this process).

There is still a lot of struggle concerning the feeling that this bodymind, with its relationships and responsibilities, has an obligation to make this life situation work smoothly (For example, to find a strong, stable source of income). It is clear that there is nobody here who will make "right" or "wrong" choices, and that whatever happens will happen by itself, but there is still a nagging sense of obligation that seems to keep "me" solidified.

Thanks so much. Love,

David

User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 3877
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Can see there is no separate I, BUT...

Postby Canfora » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:06 am

Dear David, if there is no you, what struggles? What as obligations? What as to find a source of income? Are you hopping that seeing that there is no separate entity behind the word ‘me’ will make all of this disappear? How would that be possible?

You are a part of this life and not even that, there are no parts, all is flowing. You can't manipulate or change what is, you flow as what is and changes happen. Yes, there are thoughts about reality and there's what's real. And knowing the difference between them it's like thinking about sex and experiencing sex. We can think about reality but it's the content of thoughts real? Are you sure you can see the difference or you just think you do?
but there is still a nagging sense of obligation that seems to keep "me" solidified.
You seem to be a responsible character. Does that prove the existence of an I? If you had amnesia and the concepts of struggle, obligation and income disappeared from your mind, would that help you accept that the I is an illusion? What could convince you that you don’t exist?

Love, Canfora

User avatar
dparansky
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:07 pm

Re: Can see there is no separate I, BUT...

Postby dparansky » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:38 am

Hi Canfora,

Thank you for all of your pointers and questions. It's kind of hard to say what's going on here now. It really does appear clear that things just happen by themselves. But there is still fascination with thoughts. I know that it's natural for thoughts and feelings to appear, that this won't stop. But the fascination creates a feeling of me-ness. The thoughts are somewhat transparent, but there's still this addictive quality there. I can see that when thoughts arise, the me they refer to is just a concept, but this fascination still seems linked to the stickiness of the me illusion.

It's a strange time; I'm not even quite sure as I said at the beginning for the first paragraph about what's going on. Usually it's pretty easy for me to talk, but now it's not so easy. There's some confusion here.

You said that I can't manipulate or change what is. While it's clear that everything appears spontaneously, and the sense of responsibility does not prove the existence of an I, there is still an assumption that this nonexistent I has to make life work. There's fascination with the compelling stories about "my life."

Also, there is identification with the body. I see that it moves by itself, that it is typing the words right now out of nowhere. But there is also still a feeling of identification with this form.

I'm sorry if I'm unclear or repetitive. It feels like things are shaking around.

Love,

David

User avatar
Canfora
Posts: 3877
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: Can see there is no separate I, BUT...

Postby Canfora » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:48 am

Hi, David.

To me what you say makes perfect sense. Confusion it's normal and expected. Yes, crossing can be strange and shaky mainly because you are starting to see beyond years of conditioned thinking... so let’s keep digging :)
It really does appear clear that things just happen by themselves.
There is still doubt, you need to see for yourself if this is true.

Look at thoughts again.

The voice in the head keeps talking, is it talking to someone? Is anyone listening? Can you notice that the body does one thing, while the voice can be talking about something completely unrelated? Sometimes there is even a music playing in the backgroung?

A good place to observe this is is at the shower or doing dishes or when your playing with your dogs, some simple everyday activity. It's the voice that makes things happen and things done? It's the voice that makes choices? When you wake up in the morning it's the voice that makes you get up from bed - does it have that power :) ?

Look closer at how the body responds to stimulus and conditions. See what mind does. Look in the past and see if anything could have been different. Remember some decision and see if a different choice could have been made. What do you notice? What can you find that is not on automatic?

Please, describe what you find with some examples from your experience not just thoughts about it.

Love, Canfora


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests