Ready

[ConcordBorn]

Would like a guide when one's available.

[nenad]

Hi! I can be your guide.

What are your expectations from this process?

What happens when I tell you there is no separate self,
there never was nor will there ever be?

What does the word I point to?

Have you read our disclaimer: http://www.liberationunleashed.com

Greetings Nenad

[ConcordBorn]

Hi, Nenad. Thanks for responding. I was expecting to see a reply in my inbox in my email or else I would have responded yesterday.

My expectations are open-ended. I may already have a pretty good idea of what's going on but my self-assessment might be biased so I wanted on objective observer to put me through the process and see what it reveals.

I'm OK with hearing that there's no separate self and never will be one.

The word I points to a thought masquerading as a "me."

I have read the disclaimer and am half way through the "Gateless Gatecrasher" PDF.

[nenad]

Hi,

If you want to receive emails when I reply you can subscribe topic in the left corner in the bottom of this page.

You say that you might have a pretty good idea of what is going on. Please share :)

You say the word I points to thought masquarading as ‘me‘. Say more about this.

Are you thinker of thoughts?

[ConcordBorn]

Thanks for the advice, Nenad. I subscribed. In response to your requests and question:

1. Thoughts come and go. They come from a place that can't be determined. They definitely don't come from a "me." There's no "me" for them to have come from. "I" can't program them. There's no "I" to program them. There's a body that has sensory and thought receptors but any "me" occupying it or controlling it can't be found. Sensations and thoughts occur but not to or for any "one." Events occur in the same way. Life is unfolding but without being caused by any "one" nor to or for any "one." Typing is happening but from and to no "one."

2. While there's a seemingness to "I"; upon inspection it is revealed to be nothing, a false front, a masquerade with nothing behind it. There's only the mask. Our language, our culture and even our senses cause either a belief or assumption that there must be something substantive for these things to be happening to or for, something receiving them, a receipt point. There isn't. It can't be located. Some things can be quantified. There's absolutely no way whatsoever to quantify the seeming "I." It's just a thought, an unexamined assumption, a hollow seemingness, an empty apparency, a false belief. The Earth really isn't flat after all.

3. No. Thoughts are occurring but caused by no "one" and for no "one."

[nenad]

Hi again :)

1. and 2. Nice. How did you see this?

3. Yes, no thinker. Is there a controler? Walk slowly for a minut. Is there anyone walking or just walking?
Move the arm up and down slowly. Then a bit faster. Then the other hand. Is there anyone moving hands or just the movement?
Look throughout any activity during the day. Is there anyone doing it or just the activity?

Also check if thoughts control physical action. During eating, brushing teath, puting the clothes on: Is there first a thought about action and then action follows or is it the other way around?

[ConcordBorn]

Re: 1 & 2, a few "spiritual experiences" occurred a few years ago that caused "me" to explore things. I looked and confirmed multiple times, from my own experience that "I" was just a thought and that there was no "me." The body was an easy find. The mind, as a phenomenon of memory storage and retrieval, along with the random thought generator, was easy enough to observe. There was a regular recognition that there was no "me" but "I" would often act as if there was so "I" sensed that there was more to get. Some of the descriptions "I" used yesterday came to me newly as I was writing.

I'm going to drop the quotes around I and me now.

Re: 3. I had never before done the real-time checking/looking that you recommended yesterday and when I did, I had a deeper realization, a mini "wow" moment. I just assumed that I was telling myself to do all those things, even if subconsciously, and at first it seemed that way too. Yes it was also a bit confusing because I'd already seen that there was no me to tell me anything. When I actually looked (while eating dinner), in real-time, and observed with an intention to see truth, it was a bit of a revelation.

Yes, no controller, no director, no action resulting from thought. Thought followed action. There was just assessment of what was occurring. I did more of it last evening and this morning and got more confirmation. Observing real-time action is very effective.

For a while I assumed that there must be something _else_ controlling it but of course I couldn't find anything else either.

I asked myself what this non-thinking behavior was and came up with the description, "non-verbal knowing." Without my thinking about it, the fork went to my mouth, not my ear (thankfully).

[nenad]

Hi :)

There was a regular recognition that there was no “me“ but “I“ often acted as if there was

Yes, this is natural.

hen I actually looked (while eating dinner), in real-time, and observed with an intention to see truth, it was a bit of a revelation.

Yes, no controller, no director, no action resulting from thought. Thought followed action.

Good. Exactly.

I did more of it last evening and this morning and got more confirmation. Observing real-time action is effective.

Yes :)
Look also how is choice experienced in ‘real-time‘.

or a while I assumed t _else_ controlling it but else either.

Right. It is just an assumption that there must be something in control.

I asked myself what this non-thinking behavior was and came up with the description, "non-verbal knowing." Without my thinking about it, the fork went to my mouth, not my ear (thankfully).

[/quote]
:)Yes somehow it works out whitout any control.

[nenad]

I meant to comment on this one:

For a while I assumed that there must be something _else_ controlling it but of course I couldn't find anything else either.

Yes it is just an assumption that there is anything at all in control.

[ConcordBorn]

Re: choice, it too occurs first and thought follows.

[nenad]

Good. Stand up. Or don‘t. Can you pinpoint the exact moment when decision happened? How did it happen?

Tap with two or three fingers on the leg. Tap, tap, tap. Then, hold the fingers positioned ready to tap. Just waiting in the air for a command to tap.

Looking at the fingers in the air, is it known when they will tap? Can the thought “tap now” quite happily show up and yet the fingers remain in the air?

See if you can notice the moment when the command is issued and from whence it comes SUCH THAT the fingers simply have to obey. Notice if other commands to tap can be issued which have no affect on the fingers, leaving them remaining in the air.

In direct experience, is there a command that can be issued to make the fingers tap?

What causes the finger to tap? Anything? See what can be discovered in experience rather than thought

How is subconsciousness experienced?

How do you know you are not body and mind?

Nenad

[ConcordBorn]

Wow. I haven't done this before either.

No, I can't pinpoint the exact moment when a decision happens.

I don't know when the poised fingers will tap. The thought, "Tap now," has no effect on the fingers poised to tap. I can't notice when or from where the instruction comes that does make them tap. I _can_ give them other commands to tap or do other things which have no affect on the fingers. If there _is_ a command, I can't find it. I don't know what makes the fingers tap. I can't discover, in experience, what makes the fingers tap.

I don't consciously experience my subconscious.

I'm going to start saying "think" rather than "know" for a bit here. I guess I have enough evidence for that I'm not and then lapse into a belief. I may need a little help with more of your pointed lines of questioning. Here goes.

Unfortunately, a few people get born each year without a high percentage of their body. A few other people have horrible accidents where they're left the same way. In each case, there seems to be a person there just the same.

Secondly, our body replaces almost all of its cells every year. If I'm the body, which one was I, the one from last year? Maybe the one when I was 5? Probably not since that one is long gone and I'm still here. What I am seems to be mostly unaware of the body and its functionings and, as I've seen today, the body seems to be well able to disregard my commands. I can't make my hair or nails stop growing.

Lastly, whatever I may really be, has on a few occasions, decided to relocate itself outside of the body for a short period of time. During this time, I was sentient and the body seemed to be irrelevant.

As for the mind, as a phenomenon, whatever I am is aware _of_ it. Thoughts and memories occur _to_ it. I can't control my thoughts most of the time. I can't choose my thoughts (why would I pick apathy, grief or fear?) I lose memories. I can't hold on to a thought. I can't control it. I'm not it.

[nenad]

Hi :)

Good, thought ‘tap now‘ has no effect on fingers whatsoever.

Re: body: Close eyes. Put the hand on the table. How is hand experienced? How is table experienced?

You say you can‘t control thoughts most of the time. In witch occasions do you seem to be able to control them?

[ConcordBorn]

Hand is experienced by the sensations where it meets the table. Table is experienced as the sensations picked up by the hand and the inability of the hand to go farther in that direction.

Re: controlling thoughts, I used to do positive affirmations and as I look back on it, it seemed that I was controlling the thoughts that were the affirmation being repeated. I was also aware of spontaneous thoughts that I did not cause.

[nenad]

Hi,

Re: hand and table: We‘ll get back to this later. In the meanwhile, look at this:

With EYES CLOSED … consider the following:

Going by your own, present experience, not by memory, hearsay or imagination, how big are you?

Do you have boundares?

Is there a place where inner stopes and outer begines?

There are probably sensations such as wormth, discomfort, pleasure and so on. Do these sensations make you into something solid and inchanging in the center of experience? Is there anything solid and unchanging at your center?


Re: controlling thoughts: So, it seemed that you can control certain thoughts, while other thoughts arise spontanously. How did/do you know witch ones do you control and witch ones arise spontanously?