Would really love to be guided!!

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sitasf
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Would really love to be guided!!

Postby sitasf » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:04 pm

Hello,

I would truly love to be guided, and am amazed that I have somehow been led to this website. What an incredible service you are offering ...

I have been experiencing an intense longing for the Truth of who I am, which when I am really honest with myself is a tremendous longing for the end - or at least the reduction - of suffering. I have been meditating/doing spiritual practices (with primarily one path) for nearly 35 years. Three years ago I began to experience intense fear and the loss of interest in my outer life (what I call the trap of the cycle of hope and despair). I have had many "spiritual experiences" over the years, but nothing seems to change the inner suffering or bring me any closer to Oneness, and I definitely experience "two of me" and long for someone to guide me to truly know myself. My mind keeps telling me that I am a "hopeless case" but as I look over your website, I see so many that have been helped to see the Truth...

I am deeply grateful for any guidance.

With gratitude,

Daria

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kvotski
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Re: Would really love to be guided!!

Postby kvotski » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:14 am

Hello Daria,

My name is Sunil. I would be glad to guide you if you wish.

To begin, you need to read the rules and preferably the book so that you know what we do here. Please confirm if you are ready.

Love

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sitasf
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Re: Would really love to be guided!!

Postby sitasf » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:06 am

Hi Sunil,

Thank you for offering to guide me.

I have read the rules and most of the book and am ready to move forward.

Thank you again.

Love & gratitude,
Daria

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kvotski
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Re: Would really love to be guided!!

Postby kvotski » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:58 am

Excellent, Daria.

Please lay out for me what your expectations are from this process.

And confirm that you can post every day based on honest direct experience as in our rules.

Love

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sitasf
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Re: Would really love to be guided!!

Postby sitasf » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:36 pm

hi Sunil,

My expectation is that you will provide me with questions for self inquiry so that I can be led to see the illusion of the "I" that I believe myself to be. My hope is that I will see this illusion without a doubt. I have seen on a few occasions that this "I" does not really exist except as a collection of memories and a mind that draws from them, but my mind tortured me with doubt and fear that I was unable to get through by myself. I hope that you will point out to me the lies I have been unable to see on my own.

I am able to post daily from my honest experience & am very appreciative to have you to guide me.

Thank you,
Daria

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kvotski
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Re: Would really love to be guided!!

Postby kvotski » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:49 pm

Great, Daria.

Now, on occasions you do not see I as an illusion, what do you find this I to be? Is it no longer a bunch of memories? What does it become?

Close your eyes, relax and try to point where the I is? Then open your eyes

Tell me all you find including feelings, sesations, but from experience no intellectual discourse please.

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kvotski
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Re: Would really love to be guided!!

Postby kvotski » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:51 pm

Oh, take your time. Do this a few times if you need to. But experience it.. no hurry.

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sitasf
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Re: Would really love to be guided!!

Postby sitasf » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:38 am

Hi Sunil,
On occasions that I do not see "I" as an illusion (when "I" am operating on "automatic" without questioning anything), I find this "I" to be an a familiar sense of myself that includes the body (as in "my" hand), a large reservoir of familiar memories that my mind can draw upon at will. I observe tendencies of this self/"I"- such as the tendency of my mind to compare itself to others, to judge myself or others as a result - but this mind and these thoughts I cannot find in a specific place where they are when I really look. I can only observe thoughts, a memory collection, familiar tendencies (as mentioned), etc.

When I really look for this I inside myself (i.e., eyes closed trying to point to the "I") it cannot be found in any particular place. It is illusive and I cannot find "it." What I observe is that thoughts and/or memories arise continuously but I cannot trace where they came from within me. Specific memories and thoughts bring on the experience of emotions such as fear or sadness, and I can experience these emotions as physical sensations in the body. For example fear is sometimes felt as a uncomfortable prickly sensation in the chest but I cannot find a place from where this arose and sometimes I cannot find any thought that preceded the feeling.

While relaxing with my eyes closed looking for the "I", I also experience sounds coming in and "heard" but cannot locate where I am "hearing" them from. I experience sensations such as my heart beating, heat in the body, etc. I "see" lights inside and sometimes just darkness and space. No "I" to be found anywhere, but "someone" sees and knows (my mind??) and labels the sounds, sights seen, etc. A feeling of frustration arises (sensation of heat in the body and a tenseness in the chest) and the thought arises "I" can't do this right and then I feel sadness and tears come to my eyes ... and so it goes. "I" cannot point to where this "I" is and cannot pin it down anywhere inside myself.

I hope I have answered the questions.

Thanks, Daria

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kvotski
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Re: Would really love to be guided!!

Postby kvotski » Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:55 am

Hi Daria,
Great work. You have given me a lot. Lets parse them. Each item is absolutely critical. We can't sweep anything under the carpet.

Look at the answer below and my question. Are you saying that even when you do not see I as an illusion, it is still memories and thoughts? So what has changed? That's something I need.
On occasions that I do not see "I" as an illusion (when "I" am operating on "automatic" without questioning anything), I find this "I" to be an a familiar sense of myself that includes the body (as in "my" hand), a large reservoir of familiar memories that my mind can draw upon at will. I observe tendencies of this self/"I"- such as the tendency of my mind to compare itself to others, to judge myself or others as a result - but this mind and these thoughts I cannot find in a specific place where they are when I really look. I can only observe thoughts, a memory collection, familiar tendencies (as mentioned), etc
.

Look below Daria, you say that again. You use the word " illusive". So, even when you feel you are trapped by this "I" feeling you do feel it is an illusion. Is this true? Look hard.
When I really look for this I inside myself (i.e., eyes closed trying to point to the "I") it cannot be found in any particular place. It is illusive and I cannot find "it." What I observe is that thoughts and/or memories arise continuously but I cannot trace where they came from within me
.

Ah. You may be answering me here. But I need confirmation. Is it the feeling of fear and sadness somehow creates a thought that I is not an illusion? Emotions feel so real, you feel it must be a self? Sit with the fear and sadness and trace it back to where they came from. Could they be a habit? A learnt behavior and how the body facts to certain conditions? Just some ideas on what to look for.

There is always a thought that preceded that feeling. It may be hidden, or painful to face. Look, your future happiness depends on it. Seeing is freeing.
Specific memories and thoughts bring on the experience of emotions such as fear or sadness, and I can experience these emotions as physical sensations in the body. For example fear is sometimes felt as a uncomfortable prickly sensation in the chest but I cannot find a place from where this arose and sometimes I cannot find any thought that preceded the feeling
.
While relaxing with my eyes closed looking for the "I", I also experience sounds coming in and "heard" but cannot locate where I am "hearing" them from. I experience sensations such as my heart beating, heat in the body, etc. I "see" lights inside and sometimes just darkness and space. No "I" to be found anywhere, but "someone" sees and knows (my mind??) and labels the sounds, sights seen, etc. A feeling of frustration arises (sensation of heat in the body and a tenseness in the chest) and the thought arises "I" can't do this right and then I feel sadness and tears come to my eyes ... and so it goes. "I" cannot point to where this "I" is and cannot pin it down anywhere inside myself.
I love this part. You have gone over and above. We may want to hold this but if you feel up to it, find out if the heart will still beat if it was not yours? Does there need to be a label called mind to label sounds, sights etc. ? Can the brain in your body not do all of this without having a mind involved? Are you not using a different word called mind to replace the illusion called I?

Hey, sometimes when we can't find something, may be it isn't there. Think about that for a while.

There is a lot to chew here so take your time.

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sitasf
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Re: Would really love to be guided!!

Postby sitasf » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:06 am

Hi Sunil,

Thanks for all of your insights ... I will try to answer all of your questions.
Are you saying that even when you do not see I as an illusion, it is still memories and thoughts? So what has changed?
Hmmm. Even when I don't see "I" as an illusion (when I operate on autopilot) there is that familiar sense of "myself", but yes when I try to pin "I" down I can still only observe thoughts and memories. It seems that I am not aware of that until I consciously LOOK for that familiar "I". Geez. So it seems that familiar sense of "I" still only boils down to thoughts and a pile of memories ... no real solid thing to call "I" after all. So I guess I do see that there is no solid "I" after all, but somehow it doesn't hit home as possible. Hard to believe despite the lack of facts to prove otherwise. It seems confusing at the moment. What has changed? There is only evidence that all I can find are thoughts (arising on their own from nowhere I can locate) and memories (also not able to be found in a place, but my mind is able to retrieve them at will) and no solid thing I can call "I" after all. It makes perfect sense but somehow "I" am not convinced (this seems absurd as who is the "I" that it makes perfect sense to and the "I" who is not convinced!?).
You use the word "illusive." So, even when you feel you are trapped by this "I" feeling you do feel it is an illusion. Is this true?
How odd that I feel I am trapped by this "I" that I am unable to locate it or pin down!! But that is the feeling, that I am unable to be free of this "I" with all of its habits, tendencies, stream of thoughts, feelings, etc. It feels like this is true. It makes no sense!! It feels that "I" am somehow the experiencer of all this and am somehow at the effect/have no control over what is happening. So who is this stuff happening TO? If I can't find this "I" who is experiencing all this? "I" am confused. Is this the mind speaking and calling itself "I"?
Is it the feeling of fear and sadness somehow creating a thought that I is not an illusion? Emotions feel so real, you feel it must be a self? Could they be a habit? A learnt behavior and how the body reacts to certain conditions?
Yes! You have pointed me to the fact that when I experience these feelings, I do somehow react from habit - I succumb to them and feel victim to them, somehow helpless. The feeling is familiar and then I somehow "give in" to them as if there is no choice. This seems to be a learned behavior. Yes, as a learned behavior like - "Oh, I am afraid and this means that something terrible is going to happen, I am not safe! I am helpless!" It is interesting because I often awaken with fear during the night. This usually brings a feeling of dread and helplessness that leads to giving up in despair. Lately there have been nights when I awaken with the sensation of fear (prickly uncomfortable feeling in the chest and heat and a pounding in the heart) and have experienced it as an energy (that I usually call fear and become afraid), but somehow it did not impact me in this usual learned way. So yes, I do think that these emotions are learned behaviors that have become habitual in some way. Interesting …
Will the heart still beat if it's not mine?
Yes, it seems that the heart will beat even if it's not mine! It is just beating and "I" have nothing to do with it. I am not controlling it in any way, it is just doing its thing. Beating. All on its own.
Will there need to be a label called "mind" to label sounds, sights, etc.? Can the brain in your body not do all of this without having a mind involved? Are you not using a different word called mind to replace the illusion called I?
Funny, but I’m not sure I know the difference between the brain in my body and my mind. I do know that I can still be aware as an “experiencer” even without the body (therefore no brain involved), as I recall an experience being out of my body and still thinking and being aware of what was happening - without a body, therefore couldn’t be the brain in the body. So I’m not sure what recognizes/labels sounds and sights. You know, I think you are right, that I am using the label “mind” for the illusion called “I” … and now I seem to be really confused. I think the only honest statement here is that I have no idea of what “I” is. I have no idea where the mind is either (can’t find it, pinpoint a place where it is) but this mind seems to be the one that actively dominates this whole mess at the present. It is amazing how little “I” really know or understand about any of this …

These are my initial responses to your questions … will need to reflect some more. It seems the more I look the more unclear I am ...

Thank you,

Daria

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sitasf
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Re: P.S.

Postby sitasf » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:47 pm

There is always a thought that preceded that feeling. It may be hidden, or painful to face. Look, your future happiness depends on it. Seeing is freeing.
So, are you saying that if I can get down to the thought that preceded a feeling, this will help to "unravel/reveal" this process - to see the mechanism of how this generates feelings?

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kvotski
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Re: Would really love to be guided!!

Postby kvotski » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:23 pm

Yes. Fear and tighness in the chest are classic symptoms of a buried thought.

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sitasf
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Re: Would really love to be guided!!

Postby sitasf » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:31 pm

Thank you Sunil.
So that is good to know as there is the possibility of uncovering the "root" of these feelings. I will surely explore this.

Have you see my previous post (the one prior to the "P.S." post)?

Thanks!

Daria

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kvotski
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Re: Would really love to be guided!!

Postby kvotski » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:41 pm

Yes, of course. I think you said you were coming with more.

But I think you are just there. Couple of hints for you, often we are looking to awakening being some crazy scheme available to an elite few. It isn't. Some have been known to laugh for days on the simplicity. You already know it. It's just that you don't believe it. In the end you will believe the simple truth you already know and that's called surrender.

Lets do some simple experiments. Finger pointing didn't find you, may be these will. We are habituated to using my table, my chair, my arm, my face, my hair, etc. close your eyes and touch one or more such " your" object. What you feel? Describe in direct experience? What is touching? What is being touched? Try not to label them a table or a cup, just what you sense.

And finally tell me what makes any of these things yours, including your body?

Good work, Daria. Btw sitasf? What from?

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sitasf
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Re: Would really love to be guided!!

Postby sitasf » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:00 am

Hi Sunil,

Thank you!
I think you said you were coming with more.
Yes, I thought I would have more to add after last night's posting, as it seemed the more I reflected on things, the more confused I felt. When I re-read my postings this morning, I really didn't have more relevant things to add after all ...
But I think you are just there. Couple of hints for you, often we are looking to awakening being some crazy scheme available to an elite few. It isn't. Some have been known to laugh for days on the simplicity. You already know it. It's just that you don't believe it. In the end you will believe the simple truth you already know and that's called surrender.
Thank you for this feedback, it is very, very helpful. I have felt for some time now that I have reached a "dead-end" with my "seeking." I am very, very hopeful when you say that awakening is not available only to an "elite few." I have spent many years (32 to be precise) dedicated to a traditional guru-disciple path where it seemed that "enlightenment" was a near-impossible "attainment" dependent upon the grace of the master. So this is very, very good news. I have been growing more and more desperate over the past few years (recently nearing obsession), fearful that I will never know the Truth, and have been madly looking for a faster, more direct route that I can apply myself to. And on some level I think I might understand when you say that "some have been known to laugh for days on the simplicity (of awakening)." I have had moments where I sense somehow that this "ever-present watcher" inside is what I am; "it" has always been there (when "I" look), but I do not "understand" (there's that mind again that wants to understand all this). I do think my hang-up is that I am mistaking "myself" for my mind most of the time. That ever-dominating mind that brings about so much torment and despair. It is this mind that refuses to believe the simple truth that "I" doesn't exist/is an illusion and refuses to surrender. And of course this "takes two to tango" (that duality thing) as I seem to feel stuck in identifying with this mind/thoughts. How can "I" help this mind to surrender to the truth?? It is so confusing, as "I" (as you have said) do already know the truth on some level, but my mind refuses to accept it (surrender) and I seem to be identified with the mind... again, there is that mistaking myself for my mind thing. So confusing and frustrating! Appreciate any more insight here ...
Lets do some simple experiments. Finger pointing didn't find you, may be these will. We are habituated to using my table, my chair, my arm, my face, my hair, etc. close your eyes and touch one or more such " your" object. What you feel? Describe in direct experience? What is touching? What is being touched? Try not to label them a table or a cup, just what you sense.
ARM: The hand (skin) sensed coolness and a texture of smoothness, pliable and soft when touching (the arm). The touched (arm skin) felt warmth flowing in.
HAIR: The hand felt smooth long strands (hair); the touched (hair) felt movement and tension on the scalp.
COMPUTER KEYBOARD: Warm, smooth pieces separated by space when touched by fingers that sense the texture and temperature of the object; the touched (computer keyboard) is an object that "I" cannot sense its' experience of being touched
FACE: The sensing apparatus (fingers) feel soft, smooth, pliable-ness (face) and the touched feels warmth coming in from the touching (fingers)
This is hard (not to label)!! I do think that somehow "I" know that "I" am not "my body", but "I" am not convinced of this on another level. There seem to be many "I"'s here ... are these all my mind? Or?? Appreciate your feedback here!
And finally tell me what makes any of these things yours, including your body?
What seems to make any of these things "mine" is that the sensory information happens within "my body" - "my" hand moving to touch "my" arm is something "I" can generate movement with (I can't do this with "your" hand) and can obtain sensory information (touch) from. "My" body sends sensory information to "me" about what is touched and sensed through all of "my" senses (sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch). I realize that this is an assumption (that this body is "mine") but I have lived by this assumption as far back as I can remember. Of course if "I" don't really exist, I don't really know where this leaves "my" body?!! As far as objects (i.e., computer keyboard, etc.) go, I have also assumed that since it is in "my" possession, etc. that it is "mine" ... but of course, again logic tells me that if there is no "me" there can be no "mine" either. I am not sure if I have answered your question or if I have missed the point here ...?
Btw sitasf? What from?
Sita is the "spiritual name" given to me by Swami Muktananda many years ago...

Thank you so much for all of your feedback/insight Sunil!

Daria (AKA Sita)


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