requesting a guide

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mikenew
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requesting a guide

Postby mikenew » Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:45 am

I'm ready to begin

I've read the disclaimer and watched the video "look with honesty"

I've read the first two stories in the book

Thanks so much

Mike

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mikenew
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Re: requesting a guide

Postby mikenew » Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:51 am

I am OK with the disclaimer

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Sarah7
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Re: requesting a guide

Postby Sarah7 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:28 pm

Hi Mike

Im Sarah and I will be happy to guide you.

Just to make sure. Can you please confirm you have read the link below.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

In particular, these points are very important. There are a few ground rules, please respond to confirm:
1. You agree to post at least once a day. What's needed is focus and intensity.
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to.
3. Responses require your utmost honesty. Be 100% honest. It is very easy to deceive oneself, especially when it comes to something as subtle as the intimacy of your direct experience. Strive to be completely honest and transparent as to what is actually happening in your experience, this will make the process as smooth as possible.
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Write from direct experience, not speculation. It is impossible to understate the importance of this; in order for any Direct Pointing session to be successful, it is your responsibility to examine your experience as it is, instead of resorting to speculation and theory-forming. The only way to get to the Gate and beyond is by directly looking at your actual experience of reality.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

OK. Shall we begin?

Can you tell me how you came here? Can you tell me what you expect from this process? What you think the gate is and what you think you will be like after?

Look forward to working with you. Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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mikenew
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Re: requesting a guide

Postby mikenew » Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:13 pm

Hi Sarah

Thank you for supporting and guiding me. .. there's are tears and a sadness in my heart. .. feeling so grateful

I confirm ive read the above link and agree to the six points

Love Mike

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mikenew
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Re: requesting a guide

Postby mikenew » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:58 am

Hi Sarah,

Here's my answers...
Can you tell me how you came here?
This is story ... short version is I was looking at Jed McKenna’s latest book “theory of everything” on the amazon store and I saw the gateless gate book .. read the sample – which is up to the end of the second story ... read teh website and registered.

Longer story – I’m 46 years old and did the whole corporate thing till 8 years ago ... then I felt very run down, unhappy and didn’t know what to do about it ... this triggered the current journey into truth .... I ended up spending 18 months with a shaman in Northern Thailand then studied NLP, hypnotherapy, timeline therapy, Reiki, did a lot of reading Tolle, Osho, The Secret .... dipped in and out of corporate ... Studied Tantra, ran tantric workshops, received many spiritual/shamanic healing sessions, practised yoga on and off, amongst other stuff ... discovered a zen style meditation about six months ago ... all the while being interested in what makes me happy, enlightenment (whatever that is ) was always on the radar and i’m in a place where I clearly don’t know what it is, though for me it has something to do with truth and natural living ...
Can you tell me what you expect from this process?
No expectation as to outcome ... this process will lead to wherever it leads to. I expect the process itself to be a deep, insights and change into life and myself / thoughts / attitudes / beliefs. There is some fear here and sadness... and some excitement as I write this. Also some tiredness and confusion.

What you think the gate is?
I don’t know ... all I know is what I’ve read ... which is something like – it doesn’t exist, it is a realisation that I’ve been viewing the world/universe/life/myself wrongly – so it’s a paradigm shift and that then triggers a process of unwinding of untruths.
What you think you will be like after?
I don’t know ie my mind doesn’t know, it could be anything. I am open to the possibility of the process never ending or it not being completed (for a myriad of circumstances).

I would like to be truth realised, in abiding non-dual awareness and be living fully naturally. I’d like to support others in achieving this as well.
Natural living for me means living from truth in a way that is in the flow of life, fully present with whatever is, not being run by beliefs/patterns/habits/emotions ie fully conscious ... or at least to take a step in that direction ... I don’t see the point of living a lie ... I don’t need life to be easy or comfortable ...

I’d also like to be a mature human adult – self-responsible, conscious, co-creative, self-regulating, sovereign, synchronistic/ in flow, truthful, trusting, honest, humble, honouring etc....

Thanks again for your time, support and love. I feel tearful at the thought of the gift you are giving. Feel a bit undeserving.

I’m writing this at a cafe after lunch .. eager to get his posted and to move to looking at your next questions :)

Lots of Love

Mike

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Sarah7
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Re: requesting a guide

Postby Sarah7 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:41 pm

Hi Mike
Apologise for the late post.
This is story ...
Ok so you recognise story. Good. Where do you recognise it? In what context and in relation to what?
No expectation as to outcome ... this process will lead to wherever it leads to.

Ideal. Put the books and any expectations to one side. If I see one I will bring it up for you to look at, OK?

Right now, what does ‘I’ point to? What is this ‘me’? What does ‘I’, ‘me’ refer to?

What comes up when it is read that there absolutely no "you" in any way, shape or form, there never has been, nor is there, nor will there ever be?

Love Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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mikenew
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Re: requesting a guide

Postby mikenew » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:03 am

Hi Sarah

No need to apologise :)

I’ve been keen all day to do my questions – only got home now to do them before dinner.
OK so you recognise story. Good. Where do you recognise it? In what context and in relation to what?
I’m not sure if I fully understand the question but here’s my answer! ... I recognise story in all(?) my thoughts “this happened, then that”, or “X means Y” ie interpretation of things/events/thoughts or analysis of things thoughts building on thoughts, often in recurrent thoughts.

The context is normally as my mind is commentating on the actual events of life, or worrying abut possible events or past events, or sad about events or possible events.

So story seems to be in relation to my mind trying to be in control or look in control / keep up with what’s happening.
Ideal. Put the books and expectations to one side. If I see on I will bring it up for you to lookat, OK?
OK.
Right now, what does ‘I’ point to? What is this ‘me’? What does ‘I’ refer to?
“I” points to (there is a sadness in my chest and forehead as I write this) this awareness, mind and body that I am. Me is the same. ‘I’ refers to this awareness/mind/body. As I write this there is a strong feeling in my heart.
What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been, nor is there, nor will there ever be?
Disbelief/surprise, fear, sadness, confusion, a tightness around my head, mouth and throat with a lot of sadness and some fear. Thoughts “how can I live”, “how can I do all the things I want to do in this life”, “how can I be”, “wow, cool bring it on”

Each of these answers only took a few minutes or less as I wrote what my direct experience to the questions was. Is this the best process or should I sit with each question for longer and see where looking may lead?

Love

Mike

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mikenew
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Re: requesting a guide

Postby mikenew » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:07 am

Oh and a little more...
OK so you recognise story. Good. Where do you recognise it? In what context and in relation to what?
My mind is often critical of self or others or life ...

Xxoo

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Re: requesting a guide

Postby Sarah7 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:54 pm

Hi Mike
I’m not sure if I fully understand the question but here’s my answer! ... I recognise story in all(?) my thoughts “this happened, then that”, or “X means Y” ie interpretation of things/events/thoughts or analysis of things thoughts building on thoughts, often in recurrent thoughts.
The context is normally as my mind is commentating on the actual events of life, or worrying abut possible events or past events, or sad about events or possible events.
So story seems to be in relation to my mind trying to be in control or look in control / keep up with what’s happening.
My mind is often critical of self or others or life ...
All of this is story. Yes. Is there recognition whilst you are critical of others or yourself? Or is there recognition after the fact? Is there a recognition of story as you build and add thoughts together or is the recognition after you have built? Can you tell the difference between useful thoughts and not useful thoughts that bring on emotion?
“I” points to (there is a sadness in my chest and forehead as I write this) this awareness, mind and body that I am. Me is the same. ‘I’ refers to this awareness/mind/body. As I write this there is a strong feeling in my heart.
Im going to refer to this as a feeling of me or me-ness. OK. What else is ‘I’. You mention feeling, is feeling part of ‘I’? Look.
Disbelief/surprise, fear, sadness, confusion,

What are all of there? Emotions? Are emotions a part of ‘I’? Look.
a tightness around my head, mouth and throat
What are all of these? Sensations? Are sensations a part of ‘I’? Look.
Thoughts “how can I live”, “how can I do all the things I want to do in this life”, “how can I be”, “wow, cool bring it on”
What are these? Thoughts? Are thoughts a part of ‘I’? Look.
Each of these answers only took a few minutes or less as I wrote what my direct experience to the questions was. Is this the best process or should I sit with each question for longer and see where looking may lead?
Looking will happen when and how it wants. I used to sit somewhere quiet, look and write. You may prefer another way of looking. Just look and recognise what works. OK. Having said that I may give you a writing exercise!
Love Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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mikenew
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Re: requesting a guide

Postby mikenew » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:59 am

Hi Sarah,

Is there recognition whilst you are critical of others or yourself? Or is there recognition after the fact?

When I look the recognition is after, sometimes soon after, sometimes not at all. When I recognise the critical thoughts there is a frustration during the thought – “why are people so stupid” or “why is X inconveniencing me” ie “it’s not the way I want it”.

Is there recognition of story as you build and add thoughts together or is the recognition after you have built?
There is recognition after I have built. As I’m looking at this question, I can hear “a couple having a fight” and I see that any thought I put on it is a story. Is it possible to state facts without story? E.g. She said X in tears, he said Y in a loud voice, there was a bump noise ... On looking at the question that I asked and I see there are no facts – just perceptions/experiences.

A sensation I label sadness passed through me during this and there is an awareness of a moving tension in my mouth, throat and head and tingling in my feet, legs, sacrum

Can you tell the difference between useful thoughts and not useful thoughts that bring on emotion?
This would be a useful skill. I sometimes judge whether a thought is useful. I am sometimes aware of thoughts that trigger emotions – this seems to have been happening just in the last week.
I think I want to be good at this process, progress quickly and not waste your time – there is sadness present with that thought.

I can now sometimes look at thoughts and say ‘these are just thought, I don’t have to believe them or be controlled by them’. That has left me wondering how do I make decisions.

I’m going to refer to this as a feeling of me or me-ness. OK. What else is ‘I’? You mention feeling, is feeling part of ‘I’? Look
‘I’ is a bundle of thoughts, a set of beliefs, values, attitudes, boundaries, is a history (life story), is a list of woudings/grievances, achievements, qualities, expectations, skills, assumptions adn directions about the future, the uniform (how I present myself), preferences, hobbies, likes/dislikes, Feelings are experienced by ‘I’ but not part of ‘I’.

Well, this is my idea of ‘I’ ... but looking ... I feel sadness coming on and increased tension in my heart/throat/head which turns into a yawn then tiredness ... now fear ... I don’t’ really know what ‘I’ is ... sadness ... more thoughts of wanting to be good at this process and am I doing it right ...
I don’t see any ‘I’ ... fear ... there is me-ness .. there are emotions ... can ‘I’ accept that there is no ‘I’? ... sadness ... what does it matter? Everything else is here? ... sadness ... fear ...

Going to hang out my washing ....

Sadness ...

Disbelief/Surprise, Fear, sadness, confusion ... What are all of these? Emotions? Are emotions a part of ‘I’? Look
Fear, sadness are what I’ve been taught to label emotions ... when I look at them they are an energy-in-motion .. an energy / energies that are perceived to be present and changing in the body, temporary, ... there are associated bodily reaction with them – movement to tears for sadness, immobilisation or constriction for fear.

Disbelief, Surprise, confusion ... are different variations and/or stories about fear and sadness
Tightness around head, throat ... What are all of these? Sensations? Are sensations a part of ‘I’? Look
Now when I look they are part of the energy in motion ... they are in my awareness – whether they are being picked up by my senses or how I don’t see, so I can’t say if they are sensations or not.
If me-ness is mind/body/awareness, and there are emotions/sensations/thoughts then I do not see an ‘I’

What are these? Thoughts? Are thoughts a part of ‘I’? Look
What is a thought? I looked up the definition of ‘thought’ in a dictionary ... I can’t see where thoughts come from ... In the past I have assumed thoughts come from the mind ... I have assumed I have a mind ... Looking now, I can’t see my mind – does it exist? ... fear comes .... do ‘I’ exist? ...

I can’t see if they are ‘thoughts’ ... they are words that come into awareness ...
I can’t see an ‘I’ and I can’t see where these ‘words that come into awareness’ comes from so I can’t say they are part of ‘I’ .. maybe they are and I just can see ‘I’

If ‘I’ isn’t any of the above, and I can’t see an ‘I’ ... then ‘I’ doesn’t exist or ‘I’ just can’t see it....

====================


OK that’s the answers for now ... I may look again later in the day

Love Mike

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Re: requesting a guide

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:23 pm

Hi Mike
On looking at the question that I asked and I see there are no facts – just perceptions/experiences.
Yes!
A sensation I label sadness passed through
Yes! ‘I’ labels.
I can now sometimes look at thoughts and say ‘these are just thought, I don’t have to believe them or be controlled by them’. That has left me wondering how do I make decisions.
Good question. Have you ever driven and suddenly realised ‘you’ had drifted off? Did the car crash or did your body drive perfectly well without ‘you’? How do you make a decision? Look. Try this below:

I don’t want you to talk about this experiment, don’t analyse, just do and look. Pay attention to sensations, to mind talking and interpreting and anything else you notice. Look at the thoughts, see when they come in, how they come. What makes the decision or is the decision just made and thoughts then lay claim?
I want you to make a cup of tea/coffee. Are ‘you’ making your body move or does it do it on its own? Can you really make your arm rise up, fill a kettle etc. Or does your body know what to do without you. Is there just movement? Can you hear mind say ‘look what I did, I did this…..’ Do ‘you’ decide to have a drink or does that decision just ‘pop’ into your head. Where does that thought come from? Is there a sensation that you interpret as ‘I need a drink’?
‘I’ is a bundle of thoughts,
OK.
a set of beliefs, values, attitudes, boundaries, is a history (life story), is a list of woudings/grievances, achievements, qualities, expectations, skills, assumptions adn directions about the future, the uniform (how I present myself), preferences, hobbies, likes/dislikes,
So what are these? Stories? Perceptions? More thoughts?
Feelings are experienced by ‘I’ but not part of ‘I’.
But do 'you' lay claim to these feelings? Do 'you' pretend to own them by labelling them ‘mine’?
Fear, sadness are what I’ve been taught to label emotions ... when I look at them they are an energy-in-motion .. an energy / energies that are perceived to be present and changing in the body, temporary, ... there are associated bodily reaction with them
Yes!
Now when I look they are part of the energy in motion ... they are in my awareness

‘My’ awareness? ‘Yours’? Or just awareness? Look.
If me-ness is mind/body/awareness, and there are emotions/sensations/thoughts then I do not see an ‘I’
Look again and check.
What is a thought? I looked up the definition of ‘thought’ in a dictionary ... I can’t see where thoughts come from ... In the past I have assumed thoughts come from the mind ... I have assumed I have a mind ... Looking now, I can’t see my mind – does it exist? ... fear comes .... do ‘I’ exist? ...
Yes! Look at the fear – is it yours? Or just passing?
If ‘I’ isn’t any of the above, and I can’t see an ‘I’ ... then ‘I’ doesn’t exist or ‘I’ just can’t see it....
Fabulous looking Mike - keep looking.
Love Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: requesting a guide

Postby mikenew » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:18 am

Hi Sarah,

Lovely winter day here ... just finished in the garden planting some vege seedlings ...
Driving and suddenly realised ‘you’ had drifted off? Did the car crash or did you body drive perfectly well without ‘you’?
Yes a few times in the past and often recently with the advent of texting ... fear arises
It seems something brings awareness when needed to important things.
How do ‘you’ make a decision? Look. Try this below... etc ... I don’t want you to talk about this experiment, don’t analyse, just do and look.
Do ‘you’ want ‘me’ to share ‘my’ direct experience of this experiment with ‘you’?
‘beliefs, values, attitudes ....’ So what are these? Stories? Perceptions? More thoughts?
Beliefs ... some beliefs are stories “The sun will rise tomorrow” (and incorrect) ... ...... “If ‘I’ hit my hand hard enough it will hurt.” It is a story based on what happened before and everything ‘I’ve seen happen to ‘others’... maybe it won’t next time, maybe it only does coz ‘I’ believe it .... “’I’ believe this color is green’ – taught story / labelling ... “’I’ believe the earth is round” – it looks that way, its what ‘I’ve heard in stories – maybe it’s not and there are time/space warps or something else that makes it seem that way ...seems beliefs suggest a truth but are not a truth and can not be confirmed to be true, so they are all stories or ‘useful’ models

Values ... ‘my’ values include love, respect, freedom, sovereignty, joy, etc ... they are preferences ... preferences are stories .. e.g. ‘I’ve thought ‘I’ prefer something only to find ot it is not true ... values are stories

Attitudes ... are a habitual way of looking/perceiving/responding to things – so Attitudes are stories about things

Boundaries ... as above for attitudes/values etc ... stories “’my’ boundary is do not continuously interrupt ‘my’ speaking” - yes it is a belief about how life should be ... story

Life story ... story – by definition – also just a perception of experiences ... story

Woundings/grievances, Achievements, Hobbies, Likes/dislikes ... all part of life story so story

Qualities, skills ... fear here – that ‘I’ don’t exist ... sadness ... sadness that this world may not be real – its so beautiful [story] ... tightness heart, jaw, third eye, head ... things seem to happen around ‘me’, involving the body, thoughts, the energy that ‘I’ and ‘others’ experience ‘me’ at being better at than most ‘others’ ... they get labelled qualities and skills ... These have been developed over time by experiences, choices and natural aptitude and maybe beliefs and lack of beliefs ... maybe they are functions/energies that ‘I’ have been chosen to experience/manifest in this ‘reality’ ... are they real? Are they a story? Maybe a quality/skill will stop suddenly... does the temporality matter to this question? ... ‘I’m leaning towards they are perceptions of events .. they could easily be story though .. .’I’ don’t know what they are

Knowledge ... is memory recall of thoughts gained by perceptions of experiences .. knowledge is story .. same as facts - story ... can be useful in the ‘3D reality’ paradigm [story]

The uniform ... also my way of being/choice of what sub-culture to affiliate with ... it certainly isn’t who ‘I’ am ... its an expression of energies or a set of experiences depending on the view of either ‘happening from’ or ‘happening to’ ... something is choosing or not ... or its conditioning from parents, jobs, society, school, partners etc ... sadness ... fear ... it is what ‘I’ am comfortable with, it is the means to have specific experiences or the expression of those experiences .. part is based on story ... it is a combination of story, perception and energy flow ... the best ‘I’ can do right now 'I'
Expectations ... beliefs/habits/boundaries ... story

Assumptions and directions about future ... identification with an ‘I’ and belief structures ... story proven wrong many times!

Preferences ... fear ... stories .... ‘I’ am like this, ‘I’ prefer this ... it is clear ‘I’ don’t know what ‘I’ is (‘I’ dreamt that last night – hmmmm – or was it in a Jed book? Maybe both ...)
But do ‘you’ lay claim to these feelings? Do ‘you’ pretend to own them by labelling them ‘mine’?
Yes, but less and less, but still a lot. ‘I’ see that the feelings ‘I’ go through are aligned with the astrology of the day and many ‘others’ are going through the same ....
Discussing emotions ... ‘My’ awareness? ‘Yours’? Or just awareness? Look
Its awareness... is it ‘mine’? does it belong to ‘me’? Is awareness a quality of ‘me’ or am ‘I’ a quality of awareness? ... lots of tiredness and yawning ... ‘I’ don’t know there is just awareness ... ‘I’ am aware of ‘my’ body/thoughts/awareness of emotions... there is awareness of ....

So looking shows just awareness ... it doesn’t mean ‘I’m not missing something ...
if me-ness is M/B/A and there are E/S/T then ‘I’ do not see an ‘I’ ... Look again and check
Looking again ... there are also actions ... things that happen, changes in the perceived physical reality ... though they could be a specific type of sensation ... so could everything ...

There is no mind – there are thoughts ... there is awareness of a body ... there is awareness ... there is energy in motion (or awareness of the sensation of energy in motion) ... there are sensations that come into awareness via the body ... there are thoughts ...

OH! LOL – The looking has been inward ... with closed eyes! ... so there is also ‘a movie going on’ - what is it? This vision thing? There is awareness of vision – colours brightness, focus, perception of levels of detail and changes in all these and lots of ‘things’ to be labelled. This brings the idea of space, which can be supported by moving around and sensations of interacting with things and the location of space of and in the body and sensations in and around it.

So there is now Sight/Body/Awareness/Emotion/Sensation/Thought/Action

Still sight is another type of sensation. Also there is awareness of the body via sensations – so does the body exist? Similarly emotions are felt via sensations ... actions are perceived by sensations .. do they exist? Can’t prove them to.

Down to Awareness/Sensations/Thought

Is this direct experience or theorising? There is direct experience of awareness of sensations and thoughts .... Is there direct experience of a thought or a sensation? Can you have these without awareness ... if a tree falls in the forest? ... can’t have them in awareness and what is out of awareness – if anything actually is out of awareness – is then not in awareness ... so maybe thoughts and sensations exist that are outside of awareness ....

There is a resistance to all this! No body, no ‘I’ ... etc ... it’s like ‘I’ can see it but not yet able to accept/believe/be in it ... resistance = fear and sadness

Back to looking at direct experience ... there is awareness/sensations/thoughts ... Is there an ‘I’? No ... ‘I’ is just a thought ... sadness ... still not accepting it ...

Finished for now ...
Ah there’s more ...

Actually the word sensation means felt by the senses ... of the body? If so then they can’t be shown to exist either or they are not of the body. Maybe sensations are really awareness of energy.
So then down to Awareness of energy and thoughts ... feeling nauseas ... mild terror and sadness ... still no ‘I’ ... or anything ... it’s all a dream! [story] ... still not accepting it ...

Ready to finish but there’s more ...

‘I’ve heard that thoughts are energy .... hmmm time to look ...

In the past there has been an experience of an energy coming up about to turn into a thought, a knowing of what the thought will be, and a choice(?) not to think that thought, to just let the precursor(?) energy flow. Is this true of all thoughts or just some? Is it the thought causing the energy or the energy causing the thought? Chicken/egg? Is thought different to energy? If so, does energy transform into thought (and perhaps the other way)? Or, does thought come through and just disturb energy? Or is thought an awareness mechanism of energy? Or vice versa? ... fear ... is thought an expression of energy?

Hmm there is this assumed thing here - ‘energy’ ... maybe ‘energy’ does not exist and we just have awareness and changes in awareness ... and thoughts – or thoughts are just another change in awareness ... so there is either awareness and thoughts or just awareness ... still no ‘I’ or anything else ... fear ...


Sarah please note: The questions above are to myself ... my direct experience of direct thoughts ... if they are to Sarah then ‘I’ll say so.
Yes! Look at the fear – is it yours? Or just passing?
What does it mean for an energy in motion to be ‘mine’? That question feels like it doesn’t make sense (thought it feels it does but in another paradigm) .. so it must be just passing ... it is always passing ... often to be experience again ... always passes ... so far ...

It is just fear, there is no ‘I’ to be afraid of ... sadness ... fear ...


======================

So much for this taking a few minutes!

Love, Mike

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Re: requesting a guide

Postby Sarah7 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:04 pm

Hi Mike

When I look I see thoughts, where ever I look there are thoughts. Thoughts about things I think I see, thoughts about things I think I perceive, thoughts about things I think. All thoughts. At times there are no thoughts – then there is nothing until remembering happens and then the thoughts start right back up again.

What happens when you look? What is noticed?
Beliefs ... some beliefs are stories “The sun will rise tomorrow”
Beliefs are thoughts. I believe the earth is round – that is a thought. Look.
Do ‘you’ want ‘me’ to share ‘my’ direct experience of this experiment with ‘you’?
Yes. I don’t want you to talk about this experiment, don’t analyse, just do and look. Pay attention to sensations, to mind talking and interpreting and anything else you notice. Look at the thoughts, see when they come in, how they come. What makes the decision or is the decision just made and thoughts then lay claim? I want you to make a cup of tea/coffee. Are ‘you’ making your body move or does it do it on its own? Can you really make your arm rise up, fill a kettle etc. Or does your body know what to do without you. Is there just movement? Can you hear mind say ‘look what I did, I did this…..’ Do ‘you’ decide to have a drink or does that decision just ‘pop’ into your head. Where does that thought come from? Is there a sensation that you interpret as ‘I need a drink’? A precise list will do in response.
Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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mikenew
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Re: requesting a guide

Postby mikenew » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:16 am

Hi Sarah,
Felt sad there wasn’t more questions to answer! Then there is tension in the stomach – the story is ‘I’ want to progress quickly.
... Where ever I look there are thoughts .... What happens when you look? What is noticed?
Sensations.
Sometimes there are no thoughts.
Sometimes there are thoughts – labelling thoughts, interpretation thoughts, Questioning thoughts “is this OK” “is this right” “what to do next”, Judging thoughts, commentating thoughts
Frustration.
Beliefs are thoughts. I believe the earth is round is a thought. Look
Yes, it is true – Beliefs are thoughts. They are also some kind of stable or recurring or pattern of thought - at least for a period of time ... The ‘belief’ doesn’t swap between round earth / flat earth / don’t know every five minutes ... though once seen to be incorrect the belief is gone or once something takes its place it is gone

The question arises of whether before the belief thought is a thought is it something different to other thoughts and is just being perceived that way. ‘I’ can’t see where thoughts come from right now and what if any precursors there are ... so ... it’s just a thought.
The experiment – look at throughts, when do they come? how do they come?
They come at random times – looking does not show any patterns to them or particular triggers.
Looking does not give any insight into the how either.
The Expreiment – Decisions – what makes the decision? Or is it just made? Do thoughts lay claim to it?
Looking shows it is just made then there is action ... sometimes a thought comes first e.g. “shall I do X”? or in the middle of a process “What is the next step?” then a pause until the answer comes as a thought...

Looking shows that thoughts commentate on what’s happening so closely that it looks like they are guiding or controlling rather than commentating – they are not – sometimes the thoughts get ahead of the action and hence prediction comes in and it looks like command – it isn’t and of course sometimes they are wrong.
The Experiment – Body Movement – DO ‘I’ make the body move or does it do it on its own? Is there just movement?
Once the decision to move has been made there is just movement – and thoughts commentating as per the paragraph above occur.

Been watching and practising this closely which lead to the body being immobilised whilst thoughts would come and sensations would come and nothing happing for quite a while e.g. 15 minutes ... sometimes false starts of movement happening, sometimes thoughts saying do this without movement ... waiting and looking for real/natural movement, though there could have been blocking
The experiment – Drinking – Do ‘you’ decide to drink or does the decision pop into the head? Where does that thought come from? Is there a sensation that is interpreted as ‘I’ need a drink?
Several times drinks have happened unexpectedly ie drinking sips without thinking about it

When the sensation of ‘I’m thirsty comes generally movement does not occur until a thought confirms to move “shall ‘I’ get a drink now? Or later?” or “’I’ need to put some clothes on first before going to the kitchen.” “Is it more than 30 minutes away from food” ... There has been, over a few years, a conscious process to learn to not drink and eat, it seems ‘I’ made the decision to train ‘myself’ to do this and then via thoughts trained ‘me’ – that’s the story anyway! So now there is almost always a thought between ‘sensation thirsty’ and ‘get a drink movement’
The experiment – Drinking – Is there a sensation that is interpreted as ‘I’ need a drink?
Yes there is a sensation interpreted as ‘I’ need a drink. And a sensation for ‘I’ need to eat.




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Love, Mike

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Sarah7
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Location: England

Re: requesting a guide

Postby Sarah7 » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:38 pm

Hi Mike
the story is ‘I’ want to progress quickly.
What wants to progress quickly? What wants more questions? Look.
Sensations. Sometimes there are no thoughts. Sometimes there are thoughts – labelling thoughts, interpretation thoughts, Questioning thoughts
Yes.
The question arises of whether before the belief thought is a thought is it something different to other thoughts and is just being perceived that way. ‘I’ can’t see where thoughts come from right now and what if any precursors there are ... so ... it’s just a thought.
Are questions more thoughts? How about intellect? More thought?????
Do thoughts appear to just pop in? Look.
Looking shows it is just made then there is action ... sometimes a thought comes first e.g. “shall I do X”? or in the middle of a process “What is the next step?” then a pause until the answer comes as a thought...
Are you sure the thought comes first? The car still gets driven without the thoughts being on the car or on the road. Autopilot will happen regularly! Look again.
Looking shows that thoughts commentate on what’s happening so closely that it looks like they are guiding or controlling rather than commentating – they are not
Yes.
Once the decision to move has been made there is just movement – and thoughts commentating as per the paragraph above occur.
What is decision? You do plenty of movement without decisions, you do plenty of things without even knowing you have done them – look again and see if decisions come first or just appear to?
Several times drinks have happened unexpectedly ie drinking sips without thinking about it
Exactly!
Yes there is a sensation interpreted as ‘I’ need a drink. And a sensation for ‘I’ need to eat.
Yes.
Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.


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