Requesting a Guide

[Bill1000]

Hi!

As a concept, the non-existence of self makes a lot of sense to me, but I can't quite figure out how to move beyond merely agreeing with it intellectually. I want to perceive directly the self's non-existence. I hope one of the guides here can help me.

[open space]

Hi! is it Bill? :)

would be happy to be your guide and to see past the story of intellectual to direct experience of no separate self.

Before we begin, will you look at the disclaimer and video on the home page at (http://www.liberationunleashed.com/)
and let me know if that is agreeable for you?

look forward to hearing from you and we will begin.
Coll

[Bill1000]

Hello Coll,

Thank you for offering to guide me! I have read the disclaimer and watched the video, and I am in complete agreement. I am eager to begin this process.

Bill

[open space]

Hi Bill,

nice to meet you here, thanks for the quick reply and eagerness.
Yes, all it takes is curiosity and relaxing "into" it, as it is right there all along,
nothing to learn or effort towards.

Thanks for taking the time to look over the video and disclaimer, so lets begin....
here are a few guidelines:

~agree to post daily or email if you are not able;

~please set aside any other spiritual practices during our inquiry together....

*instead commit at this time, like a meditation practice, to look for this separate self, "I".
*take time to sit in your favorite spot in your home or during an activity you love to experience this,
and notice as well what is the experience through out the day as that looking happens.

-i will ask questions and you answer....
listen very closely to the answers that arise in u,
as that IS the direct path, directions to you experiencing and knowing this.

let me know if you can commit to the above?

If you do agree to the above....
please share what your expectations are to see through the illusion of the separate self,
and any concerns/fears about that?

in gratitude,
Colleen

~Look and you will see

[Bill1000]

Yes, I am totally committed to following the directions you specified.

My hope is that by perceiving the illusory nature of self, I will achieve relief from unpleasant emotions. That is, if there is no self, what could ever get depressed, angry, fearful, etc.? I desire that freedom. Also, I have a strong curiosity about certain unusual effects that I've heard may occur in people who overcome the illusion of separate selfhood. But I'm trying not to latch onto too many expectations in that regard, because I don't want those expectations to become more fuel for the story of the self.

As for fears or concerns — well, I don't really have many right now. Instead, I feel excited and enthusiastic, because from looking around this site, it appears many people here have attained what I previously thought to be a rare experience.

[open space]

Hi Bill,
1.

But I'm trying not to latch onto too many expectations in that regard, because I don't want those expectations to become more fuel for the story of the self.

Great No expectations lets you start fresh like a young child and it is yours to know...it cannot be known thru or by anyone else, no guru, teacher, etc. it is ultimately uniquely yours, can you find that?

2.

My hope is that by perceiving the illusory nature of self, I will achieve relief from unpleasant emotions. That is, if there is no self, what could ever get depressed, angry, fearful, etc.?

Lets start here....
Who is doing these emotions, thoughts and fears?
Who are they happening to?

3.
[/quote]

I feel excited and enthusiastic, because from looking around this site, it appears many people here have attained what I previously thought to be a rare experience.

Yes teachings can make it seem that way or when seeing images of gurus...
thru direct pointing the experience of one's absence is immediate...
Look, take time to experience this... is there anyone there behind the thought "I"?
Was there ever?

in truth,
Coll

Look and you will see

[Bill1000]

Lets start here....
Who is doing these emotions, thoughts and fears?
Who are they happening to?

I had a strange reaction to these questions. The answer that automatically struck me, without even thinking it over, was "no one." But immediately I also felt a kind of resistance. It was like a chill came over me, almost a sense of fear, as if my brain was trying to avoid confronting what it sensed to be true.

Look, take time to experience this... is there anyone there behind the thought "I"?
Was there ever?

My mind constantly wanders off into stories in which "I" am the protagonist. When I notice what's happening, the daydream disappears. My impression is that there isn't a continuous self or "I" behind these thoughts, but it still seems like a hunch to me. The reality of it hasn't sunk in yet.

[open space]

Hi Bill,

Am on summer travels so it may be evenings when i respond, i am pst, what time zone are u?

I had a strange reaction to these questions. The answer that automatically struck me, without even thinking it over, was "no one." But immediately I also felt a kind of resistance. It was like a chill came over me, almost a sense of fear, as if my brain was trying to avoid confronting what it sensed to be true.

yes the thoughts can popp up to fear this understanding and what if it was what is true, what if there was never "anyone" there who was doing thoughts and it only seemed like it?
what is there to fear...name the thoughts?, the fears, that arise to see this...name them here so we can care for them?.
Is the fear really happening to anyone?

My impression is that there isn't a continuous self or "I" behind these thoughts, but it still seems like a hunch to me. The reality of it hasn't sunk in yet.

YES!! there is not a separate self behind it, experience that...What comes up to sit there?
"It is a hunch", isn't that a thought? let thoughts just drop and Directly experience this, what is...look is there someone behind this I or has that been a thought all along?
"the reality of it hasn't sunk in" that is a thought too...start to notice when thoughts arise...are you doing them?
Is there "someone" there to control thoughts, is there a u that they are happening to?

thanks for staying here to look, it is safe, no worries, thoughts can come in now to fear it and at the same time want to see it...
in love,
Coll

Look and you will see the truth

[Bill1000]

Am on summer travels so it may be evenings when i respond, i am pst, what time zone are u?

No problem, Colleen. Thank you for letting me know. I am also in the Pacific Time Zone.

yes the thoughts can popp up to fear this understanding and what if it was what is true, what if there was never "anyone" there who was doing thoughts and it only seemed like it?
what is there to fear...name the thoughts?, the fears, that arise to see this...name them here so we can care for them?.
Is the fear really happening to anyone?

The same sensation struck me today as I was reviewing the instructions on how to look for the absence of self. I think the comment I posted yesterday made it sound like a frightful experience, but it wasn't quite that. It was more like a kind of anxiety. I felt a tingling sensation, and a somewhat uncomfortable, tense feeling. It's kind of hard to describe... It's sort of like being in a room with lots people, when they suddenly all turn and look at you — an awkward feeling. Do you know what I mean? My suspicion is that I'm coming close to grasping the reality of non-self, but the brain, or a thought pattern, or the illusion of selfhood, I'm not sure what exactly, is trying to hang on to the usual mode of operation, spinning stories about "me." But maybe I'm analyzing it excessively. As for whom this fear/anxiety is happening to, well, I still think the answer is really "no one." The trouble here is that "I" am still "thinking" it, rather than perceiving the reality of it directly.

YES!! there is not a separate self behind it, experience that...What comes up to sit there?
"It is a hunch", isn't that a thought? let thoughts just drop and Directly experience this, what is...look is there someone behind this I or has that been a thought all along?
"the reality of it hasn't sunk in" that is a thought too...start to notice when thoughts arise...are you doing them?
Is there "someone" there to control thoughts, is there a u that they are happening to?

You're right, "it's a hunch" and "it hasn't sunk in" are indeed thoughts — and in a way, these thoughts kind of exemplify my problem. While I've been looking for the self in these last few days, my instinct has been to come up with possible explanations for what I'm noticing, to compare these explanations to theories I've read about in the context of various philosophies and spiritual systems, to imagine possible outcomes in case these theories are true, to think of what I would tell my friends about it... In other words, it's the self-story spinning out of control, as usual. I'm going to follow your advice and try to just let thoughts drop, and focus on the looking itself. I'll see what happens.

[open space]

Hello Bill,

thanks for looking and noticing what is experienced and what answers come to show you....

Do you know what I mean? My suspicion is that I'm coming close to grasping the reality of non-self, but the brain, or a thought pattern, or the illusion of selfhood, I'm not sure what exactly, is trying to hang on to the usual mode of operation, spinning stories about "me."

Yes, thoughts can come in to protect "someone" as that is what they are in a habit of doing.
In Direct Experience, without thought labels, experience is there really a separate self,
"I", "me" to protect, was there ever or was that all created by thought?

my instinct has been to come up with possible explanations for what I'm noticing, to compare these explanations to theories I've read about in the context of various philosophies and spiritual systems, to imagine possible outcomes in case these theories are true, to think of what I would tell my friends about it.

Yes, great to notice when thought expectations and comparisons come in, thats all they are are thoughts visiting. Important to stay focus on your experience, it is your unique "map" here, no one elses.

I'm going to follow your advice and try to just let thoughts drop, and focus on the looking itself. I'll see what happens.

YES! You are here already and many teachings possibly pointed you here, now u can "lay them down" so to speak to see and look for this separate self as your answer is key. Do you find one outside of thought?
Just sit quietly to look and be with the answer of a simple "yes" or "no" that arises.
What is experienced?

The trouble here is that "I" am still "thinking" it, rather than perceiving the reality of it directly.

So who is thinking it?
Who is doing your thoughts?
Who needs to perceive it?

thanks for your answers Bill here,
love,
Coll

Look and You will See

[Bill1000]

Hi Coll,

In Direct Experience, without thought labels, experience is there really a separate self,
"I", "me" to protect, was there ever or was that all created by thought?

You are here already and many teachings possibly pointed you here, now u can "lay them down" so to speak to see and look for this separate self as your answer is key. Do you find one outside of thought?
Just sit quietly to look and be with the answer of a simple "yes" or "no" that arises.
What is experienced?

So who is thinking it?
Who is doing your thoughts?
Who needs to perceive it?

Your questions are very clear. In fact, I'm not sure how they could be much simpler or more direct. I'm still not seeing it, though. I try to stop the mind-chatter and daydreams to see what's there underlying the thought of the self. I detect data coming in through sense organs. But I still feel a kind of tension. Perhaps it's a resistance to the very simplicity of the reality of this matter, but I'm not so sure anymore. I feel like the truth is ever so slightly out of reach, tantalizing. I'm going to keep looking.

[open space]

Hi Bill,

Your questions are very clear. In fact, I'm not sure how they could be much simpler or more direct. I'm still not seeing it, though.

Thank u for following them and taking your time here....
will you go back and answer them here and below, so important, as your answers show u this (hrt) and then i can go with u to see where u/we are?.

I try to stop the mind-chatter and daydreams to see what's there underlying the thought of the self.

who can stop mind shatter?
Can you make thoughts stop?
If I is a thought, who is doing thoughts?

I detect data coming in through sense organs. But I still feel a kind of tension.

in Direct experience, can u locate a "body"? isn't that a thought also?....
Can you know it is "tention"? Meet this label "tension" and what does it say?
Do u have something u love doing...art, hobby, outdoors, while driving....go there today, do u notice "u" disappear while doing that?

Perhaps it's a resistance to the very simplicity of the reality of this matter, but I'm not so sure anymore. I feel like the truth is ever so slightly out of reach, tantalizing. I'm going to keep looking.

yes it is what is happening all along and can just be "unnoticed"...u writing this, thoughts arising about looking for this "i", who is doing this?
can you locate a separate person there a "Bill", inside of u?

look forward to your answers and what arises on it's own.
loving,
Coll

~Your truth will set u free

[Bill1000]

Hi Coll,

will you go back and answer them here and below, so important, as your answers show u this (hrt) and then i can go with u to see where u/we are?

Yes, sorry about that. Yesterday there was a bit of frustration and distraction on my part. Here are my answers:

who can stop mind shatter?
Can you make thoughts stop?
If I is a thought, who is doing thoughts?

- I cannot stop mind chatter. It appears on its own, but goes away temporarily when there is attention to the present moment. The chatter comes back when attention goes away.
- No, I cannot make thoughts stop.
- No one is doing the thoughts. Thoughts appear by themselves, seemingly out of nowhere.

in Direct experience, can u locate a "body"? isn't that a thought also?....
Can you know it is "tention"? Meet this label "tension" and what does it say?
Do u have something u love doing...art, hobby, outdoors, while driving....go there today, do u notice "u" disappear while doing that?

- Yes, the identification of a body is thought.
- When I try to meet the label "tension" it is not there. The identification of tension is also thought.
- It's true. There are such times when "I" am not there. But right as it happens, I don't notice the fact of "my" disappearance. It's only after the fact, as a thought process, that I can label one moment as "I am present" and the other as "I was not present."

yes it is what is happening all along and can just be "unnoticed"...u writing this, thoughts arising about looking for this "i", who is doing this?
can you locate a separate person there a "Bill", inside of u?

- No one (in the sense of a continuous self) is writing this. These fingers, which are part of a body, type on the keyboard. They type in reaction to thoughts. The body is not a continuous self. The thoughts are not a self.
- No, I cannot locate a separate continuity of self inside of "me." There is a body, which changes. There are thoughts, which are momentary.

Yes, thoughts can come in to protect "someone" as that is what they are in a habit of doing.
In Direct Experience, without thought labels, experience is there really a separate self,
"I", "me" to protect, was there ever or was that all created by thought?

There is no separate, continuous self discernible through thought, whether present or past.

You are here already and many teachings possibly pointed you here, now u can "lay them down" so to speak to see and look for this separate self as your answer is key. Do you find one outside of thought?
Just sit quietly to look and be with the answer of a simple "yes" or "no" that arises.
What is experienced?

No, I don't find a self outside of thought. There is an experience of a "heavy" sensation in the head right now, along with much heavy breathing in the body. "I" hope this isn't hyperventilation. Literally LOL.

So who is thinking it?
Who is doing your thoughts?
Who needs to perceive it?

- No "one" in the sense of a continuous self.
- No one. They just appear.
- No one. There just is a perceiving.

[open space]

HI Bill,

thank u for sharing your answers and reflecting here...

- I cannot stop mind chatter. It appears on its own, but goes away temporarily when there is attention to the present moment. The chatter comes back when attention goes away.
- No, I cannot make thoughts stop.
- No one is doing the thoughts. Thoughts appear by themselves, seemingly out of nowhere.

yes... they appear on their own...are thoughts happening to a you or are they just happening?

- Yes, the identification of a body is thought.
- When I try to meet the label "tension" it is not there. The identification of tension is also thought.
- It's true. There are such times when "I" am not there. But right as it happens, I don't notice the fact of "my" disappearance. It's only after the fact, as a thought process, that I can label one moment as "I am present" and the other as "I was not present."

are you labeling it as "Iam present" and "I am not present" or does even the thought "I" happen on it's own?

No, I cannot locate a separate continuity of self inside of "me."

yes, what happens to just sit there? to experience this answer?

There is no separate, continuous self discernible through thought, whether present or past.

again, yes, never was there in present or past was it? was it just imagined all along?

No, I don't find a self outside of thought. There is an experience of a "heavy" sensation in the head right now, along with much heavy breathing in the body. "I" hope this isn't hyperventilation. Literally LOL.

Is the heavy sensation in the head happening to a "you" or is it just what is arising, it there someone it is happening to?
Did you label it "hyperventilation" or did thoughts call it that?
and yes LOL did that happen to u?:)

please share anything else that is happening there as your answers feel clear here of
the experience of no separate self, is there anything else to see thru?
loving,
Coll

Your truth sets u free

[Bill1000]

Hi Coll,

yes... they appear on their own...are thoughts happening to a you or are they just happening?

Thoughts are just happening.

are you labeling it as "Iam present" and "I am not present" or does even the thought "I" happen on it's own?

All labeling is thought, and thoughts seemingly arise on their own. Attention to the thought process reveals no continuous "self" as a thinker.

yes, what happens to just sit there? to experience this answer?

Right as it happens, just sitting, not thinking, just a body with no imaginary self — words don't seem to apply. That is, descriptions are a matter of thought, so when there is no particular thought, no description is possible. But going with thought now, here is a description of something interesting that occurred. This morning I sat down with the intention of answering this question. Thoughts were coming and going. But in a moment between thoughts, I felt a mental change occur. Everything seemed to quiet down, or slow down, like something had shut off in my mind. And I was left with a deep calm. I still feel it several hours later. It is a profound relaxation.

again, yes, never was there in present or past was it? was it just imagined all along?

Yes, that "self" was always imaginary.

Is the heavy sensation in the head happening to a "you" or is it just what is arising, it there someone it is happening to?
Did you label it "hyperventilation" or did thoughts call it that?
and yes LOL did that happen to u?

- The sensation just arose. There may have been some physiological processes occurring in the body to prompt such a sensation, but in any case, there was no "me" for it to happen to in the sense of a continuous "self."
- That label, like all labels, was a thought.
- I don't really know what happened. It was an unusual sensation, though.

please share anything else that is happening there as your answers feel clear here of
the experience of no separate self, is there anything else to see thru?

Well, as I mentioned above, I'm feeling incredibly calm and relaxed right now, as though a great burden had been lifted. There may be some potentially stressful situations for me in the days ahead, so I'll see how well this holds, but I have the suspicion that it will be long-lasting because I do feel this calmness proceeds from a deeper understanding of "non-self" than I ever had before. Mental chatter and daydreams are still occurring, but there is much less of a sense of attachment, much less of an imaginary "I" involved in these thoughts. Hopefully that will continue to fall away. As for whether there is anything else to see through, well, I can't think of anything right now. I don't know whether I have in fact "passed through the gate," though. In reading through Gateless Gatecrashers and the successful threads on this forum, it wasn't clear to me what exactly people experienced once they had passed through. Please advise me on what further course of action may be necessary.