confusion. someone willing to guide?

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waterdog
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confusion. someone willing to guide?

Postby waterdog » Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:38 am

Hi!
I might know that there is no separate self. At least I believe in it. Or try to. And through meditation and dreams I have, at moments, experienced it; that I am not my body or my thoughts and that my life as I know it does not exist... but when I am not totally focusing on what is going on inside my body, I still have this feeling of separation in my chest if I don't do things all the time. I think it is anxiety, but it doesnt have any good reason. I dont know if I can get rid of it, but I think that this is due to the ego, because it seems to get light and fly away when I look at reality in certain ways. I am tired of always trying so hard to see things as they are, I seem to get tangled up in the society and other people when I am not in meditation and I almost have to hide or shield and struggle to be what I am.
This feels a bit scary. I want to try this and to be in this "truth" all the time. Because now it seams like I have to choose between living my/a life or being who/what I am. Maybe I am not ready? Always when I don't let go of things right away I spin into the ego.
Reading what I just wrote it looks so weird seeing "I might know that there is no separate self".
Conflicts!
I want to believe in love. That someone can love me for what I am, and vice verse, and how is that possible if there is no I? Maybe it is not needed? But I don't know if I am ready to give up the thought of that...
I am so scared of being outside the community and that other people will think that I'm crazy. Because I think I need other people, I love them. So I want to do things, like they do, and to be someone, like they seem to be someone, just so that they think that I am something, that I am real... something real that can be a piece of their lives? Something that they need to make their lives more complete maybe? I realize that this is absurd, but I still feel it.
Maybe it is me, that the judgment I see in others eyes are my own? but how can there be so many conflicts and problems if this is true? The (ego-centric?) question: Am I the only one? How come the others doesn't know this? Sometimes I meet people that might know, but I have never lived close to anyone that have these thoughts and are willing to act on them... so I feel a little alone. Or is this obvious to everyone? Always when i try to bring it up, it seems that this is obvious to everyone. But I don't feel it. I wonder if others knows it. I think I should stay to my own experience, but to be honest I do think a lot of other people... I am scared. What to do if i realize something? How can I help anyone? Or be a part of this world? Eh now I feel silly.
Is this a starting point?

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Jorge786
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Re: confusion. someone willing to guide?

Postby Jorge786 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:03 pm

Hi

would be glad to be your guide, if you want

Before, I must be sure you're well aware of what we do here: there is an explanation, a disclaimer, also a video to watch on the home page (http://www.liberationunleashed.com/).

Thanks for sharing yours experiences, there are many thoughts in your post I want to comment, but first, there must be a commitment to post at least once a day and be totally honest in the answers, do we agree?

best regards
Jorge

PD may I have a name to use with you
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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waterdog
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Re: confusion. someone willing to guide?

Postby waterdog » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:34 am

Hi Jorge

thank you so much for your reply! I commit to post at least once a day and to be totally honest.

best regards

Toma

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Jorge786
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Re: confusion. someone willing to guide?

Postby Jorge786 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:54 pm

Hi Toma

thks for accept the commitment, we will going to investigate about your thoughts expressed on your post and those arising in the course, the scheme of work is: I ask and you answer within yourself avoiding watching the stories you mind tells.

Good... let start
... I am not my body or my thoughts and that my life as I know it does not exist...
Yes indeed... you are not your body or yours thoughts... soo... What are you?

Best regards
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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waterdog
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Re: confusion. someone willing to guide?

Postby waterdog » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:40 pm

Hi
I think I am something that is percieving information through senses. I don't know. A part of the nature. Right now it feels like I am my body. And that I am my thoughts. But of course if I die, my body will still be here, but I will be gone. But it is harder with the thoughts when they are spinning. And even though I am not my body I do need my body to survive. And I need other bodies and thoughts as well... I think I am a little bit covered in the rest of old thoughts and old bodies that want to survive. In a struggle right now.
I also know that I am new and free and loving! But it is hard for me to be what I am right now.
Thank you for taking your time.

Toma

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Jorge786
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Re: confusion. someone willing to guide?

Postby Jorge786 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:13 pm

Hi Toma
I think I am something that is percieving information through senses
Perception of information is happening through the senses, the problem is that there is a belief that there is an entity receiving this information, an entity that is nothing more than a belief, nothing real.
You're saying that apparently are your body and immediately thrown on the floor the idea; you realize that the idea (just the idea) of "I" will remain even though the body dies!, I'm wondering what (in "your" thoughts) is that apparently will persisting in the case of the death of the body?.
Observe that thought... can you be completely and 100% sure that there is something like an "I" that will survive the body, which is independent and separate from everything surrounding?, and if that idea (the "I") persists... what is that? (the "I")... observed the idea of "I" dispassionately... What is the "I"? (please respond as detailed you can)
Being confused is not bad by itself.
"You" are not new, free and loving!!! "You" simply don't exist, the "Life" itself is free and loving and have not time!, not in a personal way, Life is everywhere, "every-time", can you notice that?... it's really simple.

Best regards!
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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waterdog
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Re: confusion. someone willing to guide?

Postby waterdog » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:14 pm

Hi Jorge!

Maybe I dont understand what you mean... When I said: "if I die, my body will still be here, but I will be gone" I meant that "the thing that I right now believe I am" will be gone, and the physical body will remain in the world, until it decompose.

If I understand what youre saying right; the "I" never was? And then nothing will probably change when death happens. I do not experience that right now. Even if I do not exist. I can't feel it. It is like I know I do not exist, but I still feel myself so it becomes like a pain. Or a question. HOW?
"You" are not new, free and loving!!! "You" simply don't exist, the "Life" itself is free and loving and have not time!, not in a personal way, Life is everywhere, "every-time", can you notice that?... it's really simple.
I notice that life is everywhere, everytime. Still I do not feel that I do not exist.
Right now I dont understand anything. But something wants to understand that I do not exist! How is that even possible!

Thanks again,

Toma

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Jorge786
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Re: confusion. someone willing to guide?

Postby Jorge786 » Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:49 pm

Hi Toma!
I do not experience that right now. Even if I do not exist. I can't feel it.
don't focus on that feeling: "I can't feel it", focus in the question "What are you"?, we are trying to find where is the identification.
Consider this questions and don't respond automatically, not from your mind, try to find inside what you "feel" about this: Are "you" your body?. Are "you" your thoughts?. Where is the "I" that you believe it exists?

Look!... there is and "I"?... if the answer shown is "yes"... then... what is that "I"?

love!
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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waterdog
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Re: confusion. someone willing to guide?

Postby waterdog » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:45 pm

Hi Jorge!

I was at a place with no internet connection this weekend. But I have been living with this question. I think that there is something in my chest that is the "I"! Like a small pain on the left side. It makes it hard to breath. It is going out in the right arm, like a tiny heartattack! And also something foggy inside my head. And I feel the "I" everytime I realate to other people and there is som feeling of separation, when I am excluded for any reason, it may be that I am the third person when the other two are a couple or that the other two have something in common that I don't share... Then I feel like I have to hide a part of "myself" and this is shown as a small pain inthe chest or a fog in the head. Or when I have to live up to something that is expected from me, like I have to deliver a service for payment for example. In that situation it can pop up. When I have to be "someone" in relation to others, that may become disappointed if I do not react in a special way. It can be family or friends or at work...

Peace and love!
/Toma

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Jorge786
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Re: confusion. someone willing to guide?

Postby Jorge786 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:28 pm

Hi Toma!

Ok!, It is evident that little pain you feel is not the "I", but when the pain goes away ... disappears also the "I"?.
Too often feel fear in this process... and it is also this fear often manifests as pain... maybe a little heart attack!... or panic!... is common, do not worry ... use it!, be aware of that pain, just watch it, let it be, that is not you. that's happen... not to a "YOU" it's simply happen...
That effects are an automatic defense rising because that "you" feeling attacked!, just look at it without judging!
That fog in your head is also the result of the mind can not accept that even it do not exists!.

Yes!... as you mentioned, there are many occasions when it reinforces the feeling of being an entity, that entity must fend off (imagined) attacks from the "other" and must be "a self" in front of eventualities, none of that is true.
Remember... "others" have not a such entity called "I", nobody have that thing, everything is going in "automatic".

Look... are you your senses?,
An event (noise or sound), is happening? or is there a "me" hearing?
is necessary an "I" to hearing something? or the sound is simply experienced, simply happening?
where is the "I" in that cases, with the others senses... is the same?
let the senses acting without labeling the event, there is a noise, a sound, a sensation, a taste, but there is not an "I"... is an illusion.
there is a "I" doing something? (touching, smelling, or even feeling) or the things happens without control of nobody?
can you tell what is the reaction arisen from this questions?

Love!
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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waterdog
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Re: confusion. someone willing to guide?

Postby waterdog » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:06 pm

Hi Jorge!
It would be like everything is just bouncing around like particles and that nothing is doing or choosing anything, it is just reactions that has to happen. Is it impossible to be Active or a subject?

Ok, so when things happens, the senses feel it and the "I" (that is not existing), is probably the one judging it as good or bad. trying to know it from Before, cling to a sensation or repel it. so the "I" should in that case be a memory of previous sensations. something that is trying to make the body survive by looking up or avoiding sensations.

the reaction of these questions are a lot of resistance and also confusion. this is going to make "me" passive and without ambition. I still want to try to help others and do good things. I want to Believe in a better World. I want to Believe in relations, how can they be true if this is true? If everything just is, then I can't help nobody, and nobody can help me. Of course I won't need anybodys help anyway and nobody will need mine. Maybe it is a fear of being alone. Maybe it is a fear of being so Close to others. how can everything just happen? why is everybody trying so hard in that case? what is the Point? sometimes it really feels that "I" am an Active doer. Is that just an illusion? i feel like I dont understand anything right now. Also fear of that nothing matters. If this is true there can be no moral and that makes everything so vulnerable. no right or wrong. i have a lot of fear and i don't know how to face it!
when the pain goes away ... disappears also the "I"?.
Yes, when the pain goes away, sometimes the "I" disappears. Then it is like a huge silence in my whole body and mind and everything is clear. I don't have to do anything. Nothing can go wrong. It is like I am breathing Life. It is enough, nothing else is needed. sometimes the pain just goes away by distractions also, it is also good. but it is very evident that sometimes a way of thinking opens up to this resolution.

Love!

Toma

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Jorge786
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Re: confusion. someone willing to guide?

Postby Jorge786 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:02 pm

Hi Toma

Good Job!!
Then it is like a huge silence in my whole body and mind and everything is clear.
THAT'S IT

Don't let thoughts grab that clarity to "the domains of mind", there are only thoughts, the above sentence is the reality, the thoughts come a go by itself, thoughts, ah! thoughts!... a friend of mine said: "is parallel to reality but never touch it". Don't believe in thoughts... there is not "YOU" thinking!, just observe it, just look.
this is going to make "me" passive and without ambition. I still want to try to help others and do good things. I want to Believe in a better World. I want to Believe in relations
I ask you...
who is passive and without ambition?, from where come the ambition?, what is ambition?
who wants to believe in a better world?, who is saying the world is not perfect?, Who wants things to be different from what they really are?
who wants to believe in relations?, who have a relation?
(you can exchange the word "who" with the word "what")

There is only the present, not the past, not the future, in the present everything is perfect and real, do you need sometime in this very moment... right now?... look!

(answers these questions explicitly, as if to tell a child, there's a reason for it)

with love
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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waterdog
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Re: confusion. someone willing to guide?

Postby waterdog » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:55 pm

Hi!
who is passive and without ambition?, from where come the ambition?, what is ambition?
who wants to believe in a better world?, who is saying the world is not perfect?, Who wants things to be different from what they really are?
who wants to believe in relations?, who have a relation?
(you can exchange the word "who" with the word "what")
When I look I see that it is in comparision to a kid that was bright in school that someone is passive and without ambition. Like something is lost, and that person is gone. It will never come back, and maybe it is crazy to be sad about that. Now when I look it seems like the feeling of sadness or fear of being passive is just a pain in the chest, a sorrow because of something that is gone forever. That I think is more true, it doesn't look like a sign of "someone" actually being passive, or something that has to happen. It just is.
The ambition comes from a longing for experiences. I want to live in a certain way, and I want things to happen. It may also be fear.
the ambition comes from an aim to be thankful and greatful to my parents who has tried so much to help me to get somewhere in life. I want to give something back to them. to show that I appreciate everything that they have done for me. It is like I owe people things! People are struggling and I just feel so good when I feel the "reality", like I shouldn't feel that way, because everyone else is working so hard and I should do that too! I owe poor people things because I have a home and can be free. I feel guilt because I have privileges? Like because of that death exists I should not be alive.
Who should not be alive? Hmm!
because death exists. Does death even exist? how can death exist. this is something that needs to clarify. dead things becomes new life. I mean like bodies, they transform into new bodies.

Ambition comes from an aim to change things. that they are not good as they are. something always has to change or the ambition is gone. ambition is some kind of non-accepting feeling. it can be for a good reason. it can be to grow potatoes instead of dying from hunger. it can also be to try to stand up for human rights. ambition is a restlessness because you cannot find rest as long as you are ambitious. who are ambituious? i mean as long as there is ambition there cannot be rest. or maybe it can?
the one in me that wants everything to be as one wants to believe in a better world. that thought tells that as long as people are suffering and trying to exploit other people and the nature we cannot be as one. because when somebody is suffering and I am not helping that person if I can that means I do not realize that there is no difference between us. and that cracks everything. so I want that to happen. everybody has to realize that we are one otherwise I cannot believe in that. this sounds crazy. but how can I live as if everything is one and I am not a separate person if people around me are trying to use me? I will die. okay, but do I have to live in a cetrain way? is it possible to live in a cetrain way that is decided by yourself? should I let others use me and show them that I do not exist? do I have to show someone else something to believe in it myself? why does it matter so much to me how others do react?? I want to understand this! who wants to understand this??? the part of me that do not want to be lonely does want to believe in relations..... these people are gone? they are previous sensations of lonelyness or sadness or other memories from the past. those times will never come again?
Who are my parents? Are they just memories? oooooh. how can I give them something if they do not exist? If this is true then it is impossible to count anything or to owe anything. Who are suffering? I dont understand.
right now when I look it seems like these people are just empty promises about the future based on the past. But I want to dig deeper, have to dig deeper.
do you need sometime in this very moment... right now?
There is longing. maybe a need for time (=a moment that lasts?) but I think I understand that it is impossible.
It is fear of loosing love. Fear of loss. Fear of death and change and dreams that wont come true. Things that I know can be without knowing how, that I want to experience. Want to be true?
Who wants to experience? This is an experience. The experience of wanting something or knowing that something can be true?

Love

Toma

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Jorge786
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Re: confusion. someone willing to guide?

Postby Jorge786 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:35 pm

Hi Toma!

Thanks for your post!.
to help me to get somewhere in life.
Can "you" do not have somewhere in life?, who is saying this?, is not this just one more thought?
I want to give something back to them.
thoughts of gratitude are positive ... but they not mere thoughts? ... sometimes those thoughts can make you feel that they will "define you"!, there is nothing which "define you"! that "you" do not exist!
ambition is some kind of non-accepting feeling
Yes, and not accept what is, as is. Life don't need nothing to be, already IS.
who wants to understand this???
nobody... just another thought that says "I" have to understand this, it's confusing and seems a paradox, but it is what it is.
Who are my parents? Are they just memories? oooooh. how can I give them something if they do not exist? If this is true then it is impossible to count anything or to owe anything. Who are suffering? I dont understand.
Things happen, why there must be a person behind making that happen?, it's a person behind making rain?.
stay focused on seeing if there is a person named "Toma" which is doing something, is that true?, There is a "Toma"?. When "you" walk ... there is a "Toma" doing the steps?... look! ... get up and walk ... observed if there is a "Toma" doing that! or simply is happening

with love!
Jorge

PD
so sorry for the mistake
"do you need sometime in this very moment... right now?" that sentence is wrong, the question was "do you need someTHING?"....,
I'll be more careful in the future with redaction
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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waterdog
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Re: confusion. someone willing to guide?

Postby waterdog » Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:08 am

Hi Jorge,
thank you very much for your post!
Can "you" do not have somewhere in life?, who is saying this?, is not this just one more thought?
That is one more thought. But still identifying with it. letting thoughts define me. thinking them as if they are mine. it is clear in a way that life cannot exist as a line of moments, it is just one moment, but I am so used to think of it as action and reaction, in a way that it is possible to calculate things.
Things happen, why there must be a person behind making that happen?, it's a person behind making rain?.
stay focused on seeing if there is a person named "Toma" which is doing something, is that true?, There is a "Toma"?. When "you" walk ... there is a "Toma" doing the steps?... look! ... get up and walk ... observed if there is a "Toma" doing that! or simply is happening
I dont know... it doesnt have to be a person behind making things happen, but still in a way I feel like that... like it has to be a person behind making my body get up in the morning or else the body would lie there all day long. a person behind making food, a person being nice and making friends, a person behind falling in love. this sounds very terrible! i do not want to think this way. it seems very controlling. no wonder I feel cut off at times if I believe I do controle the universe.
what is steering the actions otherwise? I want to live with this thought for a while longer and really look.

Thank you again

Love!
Toma


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