So close and yet...please help?

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GateNudger
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So close and yet...please help?

Postby GateNudger » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:44 pm

Hi,

I've been reading your book feverishly for a few weeks now and have come to see that everything is happening by itself. I would love some help in going through the gate.

Peter.

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Sarah7
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Re: So close and yet...please help?

Postby Sarah7 » Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:48 pm

Hi Peter

Im Sarah and I will be happy to guide you.

Can you please confirm you have read the link below.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

In particular, these points are very important. There are a few ground rules, please respond to confirm:
1. You agree to post at least once a day. What's needed is focus and intensity.
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to.
3. Responses require your utmost honesty. Be 100% honest. It is very easy to deceive oneself, especially when it comes to something as subtle as the intimacy of your direct experience. Strive to be completely honest and transparent as to what is actually happening in your experience, this will make the process as smooth as possible.
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Write from direct experience, not speculation. It is impossible to understate the importance of this; in order for any Direct Pointing session to be successful, it is your responsibility to examine your experience as it is, instead of resorting to speculation and theory-forming. The only way to get to the Gate and beyond is by directly looking at your actual experience of reality.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

OK. Shall we begin?

Can you tell me what you expect from this process? What you think the gate is and what you think you will be like after?

Look forward to working with you.

Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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GateNudger
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Re: So close and yet...please help?

Postby GateNudger » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:06 pm

Hi Sarah,

Thank you so much for your willingness to help me.

I will keep to all the rules.

I expect this inquiry to lead me to the truth. I think the gate represents the finishing point of the feverish spiritual search. Going through the gate represents a clear and abiding realisation that the self is nothing but a concept. Once that realisation has happened, the ups and downs of "my" life won't be taken as seriously as before. There will be fewer afflictive emotions and psychic irritants.

I am champing at the bit for this, Sarah. I am delighted that you are helping me.

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Re: So close and yet...please help?

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:23 am

Hi Peter
I expect this inquiry to lead me to the truth. I think the gate represents the finishing point of the feverish spiritual search.
OK. One thing that is important is that we put all expectations to one side. If I see an expectation I will bring it up for you to look at. OK.
Going through the gate represents a clear and abiding realisation that the self is nothing but a concept.
Right now, what does ‘I’ point to? What is this ‘me’? What does ‘I’, ‘me’ refer to?

What comes up when it is read that there absolutely no "you" in any way, shape or form, there never has been, nor is there, nor will there ever be?
I am champing at the bit for this, Sarah. I am delighted that you are helping me.
Champing is perfectly allowed!
Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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GateNudger
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Re: So close and yet...please help?

Postby GateNudger » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:39 am

Right now, what does ‘I’ point to? What is this ‘me’? What does ‘I’, ‘me’ refer to?
The "I" points to a belief that there is a conscious, separate, experiencer of "my" life. Since reading your book the belief that this experiencer is consciously controlling my life has disappeared. What remains is a belief that there is a "me" who knows what is going on in and around me. This doesn't feel like an impersonal cosmic consciousness but feels like an extremely personal and separate me as "knower/experiencer".
What comes up when it is read that there absolutely no "you" in any way, shape or form, there never has been, nor is there, nor will there ever be?
A lot of agreement but also an element of resistance. That resistance is in the form of 'yes, everything is happening by itself but it still feels like there is this "knowing me" here'.

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Sarah7
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Re: So close and yet...please help?

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:31 pm

Hi Peter
Since reading your book the belief that this experiencer is consciously controlling my life has disappeared.
We will look at control in and amongst everything else. Try not to reference what you have read though, or what you think you have learnt. I need you to look from your OWN point of view. OK.
What remains is a belief that there is a "me" who knows what is going on in and around me. This doesn't feel like an impersonal cosmic consciousness but feels like an extremely personal and separate me as "knower/experiencer".
A lot of agreement but also an element of resistance. That resistance is in the form of 'yes, everything is happening by itself but it still feels like there is this "knowing me" here'.
OK. So lets try and hunt down this ‘you’.

First of all can you tell me what makes up ‘I’? What does ‘I’ consist of? Give me a list e.g. you say above ‘you’ makes decisions and you say you still have this feeling of ‘knowing me’ – can we call this a feeling of ‘me-ness’? So what else is ‘I’ made up of?

‘I’ list: Feeling of me-ness, ‘I’ makes decisions, ………?

Next – look at thoughts. See if you can catch them appear. See if you can see where they come from? Can you stop and start them at will? Can you decide what thoughts turn up? Do ‘you’ think? Or does thinking just happen? If there is a ‘you’ then there is someone controlling thoughts. Please do not guess, intellectualise or repeat from learning. Look.
Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: So close and yet...please help?

Postby GateNudger » Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:18 pm

Thank you, Sarah. Very touched by this kind consideration.
I need you to look from your OWN point of view. OK.
Yes, I will comply with that.
you say above ‘you’ makes decisions
No, when I say, 'everything is happening by itself' I include decision-making in that.


"I" LIST: Feeling of me-ness. ( I can find nothing else to put on the list )
Next – look at thoughts. See if you can catch them appear. See if you can see where they come from?
I can catch them appear but I can't see where they come from.
Can you stop and start them at will?
No, they appear and disappear spontaneously.
If there is a ‘you’ then there is someone controlling thoughts
My 'feeling of me-ness' no longer embraces that of conscious control of any kind.

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Re: So close and yet...please help?

Postby Sarah7 » Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:47 pm

Hi Peter
Please let me know if I misunderstand you again. Words are very tricky!
"I" LIST: Feeling of me-ness. ( I can find nothing else to put on the list )
So where is this ‘feeling of me-ness’ then? The wording suggests it is in feelings. Look and see if ‘I’ is in feelings and emotions. Is it in thoughts? Look and see if ‘I’ is in thoughts. Does this feeling of me-ness feel like a thought? Do you get a feeling of me-ness in sensations? Touch something and see if ‘I’ is present? Or is this feeling of me-ness made up partly of all of these things? Look.

Take your time with this and really look to see where ‘I’ is, or where we get our idea of ‘I’ from.
I think the gate represents the finishing point of the feverish spiritual search.
What is feverish? Do you still experience this feverishness?
I am champing at the bit for this
What is champing? How do you know you are champing? What tells you champing is taking place?
Going through the gate represents a clear and abiding realisation that the self is nothing but a concept. Once that realisation has happened, the ups and downs of "my" life won't be taken as seriously as before. There will be fewer afflictive emotions
What remains is a belief that there is a "me" who knows what is going on in and around me. This doesn't feel like an impersonal cosmic consciousness but feels like an extremely personal and separate me as "knower/experiencer".
but it still feels like there is this "knowing me" here'.
Do you expect this feeling of ‘I’ will vanish? Become less? Look. Do you expect emotions will decrease? Why? You say earlier that
‘My 'feeling of me-ness' no longer embraces that of conscious control of any kind’
.
Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: So close and yet...please help?

Postby GateNudger » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:03 am

Thank you, Sarah.
Do you get a feeling of me-ness in sensations?
The me-ness arises out of the familiarity of my internal landscape. The way that I respond to stimuli is unique to me and it is that familiar uniqueness, that very distinctive 'flavour' of me, that is the me-ness.
Touch something and see if ‘I’ is present
Yes, the "I" is present when I touch something. Thoughts that arise with this are: The way my nervous system registers a given stimuli is unique to me and therefore colours the experience. I have grown very familiar with the way my nervous system experiences life and it is this uniqueness that gives rise to the belief that there is an "I" there that is the experiencer/knower.

As I type this I can see how flimsy this is. I can see how each nervous system is unique and would give rise to a feeling of uniqueness within each person. As each nervous system came about spontaneously, and as the thought saying, "I am that uniqueness" comes about spontaneously, it is obvious that the "I" is no more than an interpretation, no more than a belief built on sand.
What is feverish?
Thoughts and sensations.
Do you still experience this feverishness?
Yes, increasingly so.
What is champing?
Nothing is champing. There are only thoughts and sensations. The thoughts say things like, 'I must see through the "I" illusion as soon as possible.' The accompanying sensations are tension in the body, particularly around the eyes, fingers and knees.
Do you expect this feeling of ‘I’ will vanish? Become less?
Not necessarily; I expect the identification with it to vanish.
Do you expect emotions will decrease?
I expect afflictive emotions will decrease.
Why?
Because The "I" illusion gives rise to gives rise to thoughts which engender painful emotions.
Why? You say earlier that
‘My 'feeling of me-ness' no longer embraces that of conscious control of any kind’
I couldn't discern your meaning here. I can't see how my lack of belief in conscious control would lead me to expect no reduction in afflictive emotions 'post-gate' ( please ignore my convoluted point here if it has little relevance. I know that only direct experience is what works here and so I am anxious to by-pass my tendancy to have a forensic approach to it).

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Sarah7
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Re: So close and yet...please help?

Postby Sarah7 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:02 pm

Hi Peter
The way that I respond to stimuli is unique to me and it is that familiar uniqueness, that very distinctive 'flavour' of me, that is the me-ness.
Look at this and see if it is story added on by thoughts e.g. the word unique. What can you actually compare your uniqueness to?
Yes, the "I" is present when I touch something. Thoughts that arise with this are:
OK. So this me-ness seems to be thoughts. Look at ‘me’ thoughts. Watch what they attach themselves too, how they attach themselves. Don’t judge just pay attention.
it is obvious that the "I" is no more than an interpretation, no more than a belief built on sand.
Yes. But it is ‘seeing’ this in Direct Experience.
Sarah7 wrote:What is feverish?
Thoughts and sensations.
How can sensations be feverish? Thought interprets feverishness. Look.
Sarah7 wrote: Do you still experience this feverishness?
Yes, increasingly so.
I expect the identification with it to vanish.
Because The "I" illusion gives rise to gives rise to thoughts which engender painful emotions.
Instinct moves away from unpleasant feelings and sensations. Look at the uncomfortable feelings and see the thoughts attached, listening to the story they are weaving.
Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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GateNudger
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Re: So close and yet...please help?

Postby GateNudger » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:56 am

Hi Sarah,
Look at this and see if it is story added on by thoughts e.g. the word unique. What can you actually compare your uniqueness to?
Yes, this is definitely a story. The story says: "If two people hear the same sudden loud noise one jumps out of their skin while the other one doesn't. This indicates a difference in their nervous systems and that gives rise to a different experience of the same stimulus." This is the uniqueness that I referred to. I can now see that it is a mistake to interpret this ( deduced ) uniqueness as selfhood.
So this me-ness seems to be thoughts. Look at ‘me’ thoughts. Watch what they attach themselves too, how they attach themselves.
They attach to the "I". In the above story there is an "I" who 'jumps out of his skin', there is an "I" who feels shock and awe. This "I" can't be found in direct experience. Rather, life-long, constantly occuring self-referential thoughts have established and maintained a belief in an "I".
How can sensations be feverish?
They can't, this is more story.
Look at the uncomfortable feelings and see the thoughts attached, listening to the story they are weaving.
Yes, a story where "I" play the leading role. In the story things happen to "me". In the story, I need, I want, etc. It's like I've been listening to a propaganda radio station all my life which has brainwashed me into believing that this "I" really exists. When I look for it I can't find it.

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Re: So close and yet...please help?

Postby Sarah7 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:23 pm

Hi Peter
I remember that you said you understand there is no control over anything and that has been dropped, but I want you to look more closely at story, where and how it happens. OK.
They attach to the "I". In the above story there is an "I" who 'jumps out of his skin', there is an "I" who feels shock and awe. This "I" can't be found in direct experience. Rather, life-long, constantly occuring self-referential thoughts have established and maintained a belief in an "I".
Yes, a story where "I" play the leading role. In the story things happen to "me". In the story, I need, I want, etc. It's like I've been listening to a propaganda radio station all my life which has brainwashed me into believing that this "I" really exists. When I look for it I can't find it.
OK. Id like you to just sit for 10 minutes with a paper and pen and I want you to record everything you notice e.g. a collection of experiences and actions, ownership labels, feelings, emotions and sensations. I want you too look at what experiences come up, what actions you notice, what labels you see and WHERE they are applied, what feelings and emotions come up, and what sensations arise.

Don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - I am lying in bed, I am hearing the rain, I am writing this list, I can feel a sensation of relaxing etc….

Id like you then to repeat the exercise doing exactly the same as you did above, but this time don’t use the word ‘I’ or ‘me’ when you write the list of what you notice. Again don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - waiting for the next thought, writing, breathing, listening, relaxing sensation etc…

What do you notice from doing the two looking exercises? Which feels truer?

Have you ever driven and suddenly realised ‘you’ had drifted off? Did the car crash or did your body drive perfectly well without ‘you’?

When there is no thought, where are you?
Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: So close and yet...please help?

Postby GateNudger » Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:27 pm

Just write me a list like - I am lying in bed, I am hearing the rain, I am writing this list, I can feel a sensation of relaxing etc….
As soon as I started doing this it felt ridiculous writing something like, "I scatched my chin" or "I heard a dog barking" etc. It was obvious that there was no one doing these things; they were just happening by themselves.
Just write me a list like - waiting for the next thought, writing, breathing, listening, relaxing sensation etc…
This approach felt authentic. There was just, "hearing clock ticking", "swallowing", "flaring nostrils" etc.
Have you ever driven and suddenly realised ‘you’ had drifted off?

Yes, this happens a lot.
Did the car crash or did your body drive perfectly well without ‘you’?
The only crash I've ever had was when "I" was paying very close attention to "my" driving.
When there is no thought, where are you?
"I" am nowhere to be found.

I am feeling a lot of resentment and frustration about this "I" belief. I am desperate to be rid of it. I'm frustrated over the fact that although it is so obvious that everything is happening spontaneously, there is still an element of doubt about no self. How crazy!

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Re: So close and yet...please help?

Postby Sarah7 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:28 am

Hi Peter
I am feeling a lot of resentment and frustration about this "I" belief. I am desperate to be rid of it. I'm frustrated over the fact that although it is so obvious that everything is happening spontaneously, there is still an element of doubt about no self. How crazy!
Not crazy. Just is. Don’t worry about it.

You might want to go somewhere quiet for this bit. Some nice deep breathes before you start – and relax those shoulders.

Look at this frustration. What is frustrated? What is resenting? What is desperate?

Sit with the frustration, look at it. Look to see if there is a feeling under the noise or an emotion. Look then for a thought or thoughts that may have attached themselves to that feeling. Look then for a story that may have followed the thoughts. Look for ‘I’ labels in the feeling, emotion and thoughts. Look and see if thoughts have looked for proof/evidence for this frustration.

I don’t know if you like writing, I certainly found it useful, but it may help to write this down. Repeat the exercise for the resentment and the desperation.

What wants to be ‘rid’? Is ‘I’ the enemy? Is the expectation to be ‘rid’ of this me-ness still there? Why would you want to get rid? Where has that come from? 'I' is probably a survival tool, and there for a very good reason. I have asked you this before so really look at this. Don’t give me an expected answer – there are no wrong answers here. But it is obviously sticking so we have to find out what it is sticking too. OK.

Everything is fine Peter. Love Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: So close and yet...please help?

Postby GateNudger » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Sit with the frustration, look at it
Feelings of inadequacy emerged saying: "It's not like you're being asked to climb Mount Everest here, you're only being asked to look and see if there is a self, and yet you can't do it well enough, what's wrong with you?"

Another story that is running in connection with this says: "How can you help anyone else become free of the illusion if you're still a victim of it yourself? You need to hurry up and get free in order to be able to help them."

Also: "When you speak about this stuff to others you're just parroting it from a book; it doesn't sound authentic. You need to quickly see through the illusion in order to start sounding like 'the real deal'."

I have been doing spiritual practices for years and initially I thought that the LU investigation would be just an add-on to my spiritual practices but not as important as them. After reading your book I have come to view these spiritual practices as an add-on to the LU process. The story that flows from this says: "The stakes are high; all this time that you're spending on your practices is of limited value until the self is seen as illusory. You haven't got a moment to lose, you've got get this thing done."

All these things make for a compelling story of frustration. No wonder the Peter character in this story feels resentful about still being in the grip of the illusion; no wonder he is desperate to be rid of it.
Is ‘I’ the enemy?
In the story, the "I" is enemy no.1.
'I' is probably a survival tool, and there for a very good reason.
Yes, I suppose evolution wouldn't have come up with this illusion unless it had served some beneficial purpose. Peter says it's time for an evolutionary quantum leap.


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