Guide needed for Gate excursion

[Choppy]

Hello,

Throughout the past couple of years I've searched extensively for the truth of existence. I've been reading and watching mainly, Eckhart Tolle, Adyashanti, Osho, Jiddu Krishnamurti and similar. I've felt that the world as I know it is illusory, but "I" have been kept believing in the illusion due to unfortunate events and suffering, which have made it hard not to attach myself to the thoughts that occur.

I'm willing to let myself go into the unknown... I've had enough.

[Xain]

Hi Choppy

Welcome to the guiding area.

I've been reading and watching mainly, Eckhart Tolle, Adyashanti, Osho, Jiddu Krishnamurti and similar.

I know them all well. I must have read Tolle's 'The Power of Now' about seven times.

I've felt that the world as I know it is illusory, but "I" have been kept believing in the illusion due to unfortunate events and suffering, which have made it hard not to attach myself to the thoughts that occur.

Perhaps you could elaborate a little. How was the world known to be 'illusory', or perhaps you are referring to a mental understanding of the subject only? Has there been any experience that confirmed the illusory nature of the world to you?

What do you seek here at Liberation Unleashed, and our dialogue together.
What would you like to happen or experience?

Xain ♥

[Choppy]

The world is ever-changing and never constant. It's hard to put into words, but I've had a certain feeling that there's something else to existence that I'm missing, than what I experience on a daily basis. Perhaps it's the self that is distorting the "real" view of existence by constantly labeling, commenting and judging everything that comes into perception. I feel that there must be another way of experiencing life.

I'm not sure what I'd like to happen, but I'm so tired of myself. I'd like to experience life without the "I".

[Xain]

"I'm afraid to die. I'm afraid to live. What a way to exist."

Nice. It reminds me of 'Old man river' . . .

"I get weary, and sick of trying,
I'm tired of living, But scared of dying,
That old man river, he just keeps rolling along."

I'm not sure what I'd like to happen, but I'm so tired of myself.

How do you mean 'tired of yourself'?

I'd like to experience life without the "I".

Why?

Xain ♥

[Choppy]

How do you mean 'tired of yourself'?

It feels as if I'm never really satisfied with life no matter what happens. It is stressful to put up with all the noise that constantly occurs in my head and identifying myself so strongly with it. Being so attached to my thoughts is one of the primary reasons that causes distress and dissatisfaction in my life, and I'd like to do whatever it takes to break this habit. Especially since i tend to think of myself in a strongly negative fashion.

Why?

Living without the "I" would probably cease a lot of the suffering I am going through. I want my head to have less thoughts, and I don't want to take the thoughts that occur so seriously/personal. There's no need to add something to my myself, as in more knowledge, new technique or some kind of personal improvement. Seeing through the "I" as an illusory concept, and being able to experience life from another kind of perspective does feel like it could solve the predicament of being "tired of myself".

[Xain]

Being so attached to my thoughts is one of the primary reasons that causes distress and dissatisfaction in my life, and I'd like to do whatever it takes to break this habit.

I understand, and I willing to guide you to get through this and find the peace you seek.
Certainly, the chance of seeing through the illusion of self is directly proportional to the desire you have to see it, and your desire seems strong so this is a positive thing.

Especially since i tend to think of myself in a strongly negative fashion

I used to have the same thing happen here also, and I can relate to what you are saying.

Living without the "I" would probably cease a lot of the suffering I am going through.

That is a fair expectation.
Note that people can have fairly lofty expectations of what will happen after 'seeing'. For the moment, put any expectations of what may happen 'after'. Life unfolds perfectly as it should in the time required.

I see a lot of 'Tolle' in your replies :-) This is not a bad thing, but for the moment, put all teachings, training to one side for our conversation together. Answer personally about what you feel is right for you in the immediate moment.

A few guidelines which will assist us both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
(Scroll down the page)

If you need to you can use the QUOTE function like I have done three times to quote some of your replies - It may make it easier to read through the dialogue.
A guide for this function can be found here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Perhaps to begin with, you could elaborate on an area which caused or causes the suffering you feel. You don't have to go into depth, but this may be a good starting point for our chat here. Say what the suffering is, perhaps suggest where it comes from, what it means to you and how it appears to you.

Xain ♥

[Choppy]

I understand, and I willing to guide you to get through this and find the peace you seek.
Certainly, the chance of seeing through the illusion of self is directly proportional to the desire you have to see it, and your desire seems strong so this is a positive thing.

Thank you. I'll go into this procedure wholeheartedly.

I see a lot of 'Tolle' in your replies :-) This is not a bad thing, but for the moment, put all teachings, training to one side for our conversation together. Answer personally about what you feel is right for you in the immediate moment.

You're correct, he was the first spiritual person i followed, thus the one that affected me the most.

Perhaps to begin with, you could elaborate on an area which caused or causes the suffering you feel. You don't have to go into depth, but this may be a good starting point for our chat here. Say what the suffering is, perhaps suggest where it comes from, what it means to you and how it appears to you.

I'll have to answer this one tonight when I've got more time, it requires quite a bit of thinking.

[Choppy]

Perhaps to begin with, you could elaborate on an area which caused or causes the suffering you feel. You don't have to go into depth, but this may be a good starting point for our chat here. Say what the suffering is, perhaps suggest where it comes from, what it means to you and how it appears to you.

For the most part of my life I've had debilitating social phobia and depression that has caused me to be isolated over the years. My anxiety has been like a roller-coaster ride with ups and down that correlate with my mood. Throughout most of my teenage years my best friend was my computer, i was very lonely for long periods of time. Sometimes i wasn't even able to go to the supermarket and buy groceries due to the anxiety, and whenever i got eye contact with somebody it felt like i got a swift punch in the face.

I have always had strong feelings of worthlessness as a human being, not feeling adequate, only failing whatever i try to do. When all this started is hard to say, dad had enough of suffering and choose suicide over life, grown up with alcoholics, stepparents died early, bullied, only child and no relatives or friends and so on. In my early twenties i however went through a radical transformation, got a job and partner, this however quickly turned upside down and i started abusing drugs, anything i could come by. Mostly unknown research chemicals, anything to get high and escape reality was good enough for me. I was a high risk taker, i didn't care for life, and life didn't care for me. I put all my savings onto the stock market, and lost it all in a few months. I also got problems with the police and ended up in court and was sentenced to prison for 3 months.

Fast forward a few years; social anxiety from my teenage years came back full force and I was isolated once again, whereas my only social contact have been my girlfriend. The past few months however things have been looking up as I've once again gone through a radical transformation mostly due to a rare antidepressant i worked very hard to obtain. It has done wonders for my anxiety, and now I'm freely able to chat up strangers and engage in most social situations without intense fear. But yet I'm feeling very depressed due to my negative thought patterns, the strong feelings of worthlessness and failure is still there, as they've been for the majority of my life. I just know life can be experienced in another way. Existence can not just be suffering, stacked upon more suffering!

[Xain]

Hi again Choppy.
Thank you for sharing that. It sounds like a very rough ride.
My story is very similar although not as extreme as you detail it here.

Existence can not just be suffering, stacked upon more suffering!

I agree. What we need to do is to locate the root of all this suffering and examine what it is.
See if we can pull that root up.

There is a lot to go on there, so let's start breaking it down a bit.

I have always had strong feelings of worthlessness as a human being

Ok, well typically this will manifest as the thought 'I am worthless' and from that thought will give the depression, manifesting as an unpleasant feeling and sadness. Does this seem a fair statement of what happens?

I just know life can be experienced in another way.

Well life is experienced. Rather than 'another way' perhaps it would be better to say 'experience life but without the mind's negative thought patterns ruining the experience'?

One final question. Please read this, and take it as if I was speaking directly to you:

This person you take yourself to be is a fiction. There is no separate person here.
This 'I', this 'me' you call yourself is not real. It never was, it never will be.

What comes up? Any thoughts? Any worries?

Xain ♥

[Choppy]

Ok, well typically this will manifest as the thought 'I am worthless' and from that thought will give the depression, manifesting as an unpleasant feeling and sadness. Does this seem a fair statement of what happens?

Yes, it is accompanied by unpleasant feelings.

Well life is experienced. Rather than 'another way' perhaps it would be better to say 'experience life but without the mind's negative thought patterns ruining the experience'?

Yes, i believe getting rid of those patterns would give a profoundly different experience of life.

This person you take yourself to be is a fiction. There is no separate person here.
This 'I', this 'me' you call yourself is not real. It never was, it never will be.

What comes up? Any thoughts? Any worries?

Immediately i could not perceive any thoughts, perhaps there was more of a desire that arose that wants to experience the dissolution of self, to be able to see through the fiction.

I've tried to mentally accept how it would feel to lose control; how life is merely a movie unfolding in front of me, with me having no whatsoever ability to alter the story. At first when i did this i do think i had some thoughts that induced fear. Such as myself doing something repulsive to another person, or doing extreme harm towards my body, and there would be no possibility for myself to stop it due to complete loss of control of my body movements/thoughts/actions.

[Xain]

I've tried to mentally accept how it would feel to lose control; how life is merely a movie unfolding in front of me, with me having no whatsoever ability to alter the story.

If there is no 'I', no 'me', no 'self' right now, then there has never been a self and there never will be one.
If this is true then there has never been an 'I' that has been in control.
How could control be lost if control was never there?

This brings us nicely to the notion of an 'I' that is in control. 'I', 'me' is the controller of my body, thoughts, and destiny. We will go into this more later.

Ok, well typically this will manifest as the thought 'I am worthless' and from that thought will give the depression, manifesting as an unpleasant feeling and sadness. Does this seem a fair statement of what happens?

Yes, it is accompanied by unpleasant feelings.

Good, so the root of this would be 'I am worthless' - Let's examine that.

What exactly is this 'I' that is worthless? What does the word 'I' point to here?

Xain ♥

[Choppy]

If there is no 'I', no 'me', no 'self' right now, then there has never been a self and there never will be one.
If this is true then there has never been an 'I' that has been in control.
How could control be lost if control was never there?

Indeed if the 'me' never existed, then there's never been anything in control. But the ego is deceptively clever and while i can somewhat grasp this mentally, it's still difficult. The "I" still feels very much in control of everything, and I feel a strong responsibility for my actions.

What exactly is this 'I' that is worthless? What does the word 'I' point to here?

I've always seen the "I" as something that is situated behind my eyeballs and between the ears. Perhaps the brain, and when i try to feel the "I" there's just an empty space that i imagine to be black, but in reality there's probably no color at all. This void area feels deep as it seems sounds can occur at so many different "places". It's also the place where thoughts come and go freely.

[Xain]

But the ego is deceptively clever and while i can somewhat grasp this mentally, it's still difficult. The "I" still feels very much in control of everything, and I feel a strong responsibility for my actions.

Yes, I understand.
Right now you have a mental understanding of the subject but no direct realisation.
This conversation is to get you that realisation.

I noticed you said 'I feel a strong responsibility' - That is interesting.
When you say that, what does 'I' point to? - Take a look calmly as you sit or lie there.
What can you find that 'feels a strong responsibility'

I've always seen the "I" as something that is situated behind my eyeballs and between the ears. Perhaps the brain, and when i try to feel the "I" there's just an empty space that i imagine to be black, but in reality there's probably no color at all. This void area feels deep as it seems sounds can occur at so many different "places". It's also the place where thoughts come and go freely.

There are a few things to address here.
Firstly, that 'I' is somehow located inside the head/brain.
So saying 'I am worthless' you are saying that there is an area of black empty space inside your head that is worthless.
I won't question you on this one, since I think you can see it is a rather strange statement. It doesn't really make sense.

So let's do a little exercise.

Since whatever 'I' is, is here right now (something must be here just to read this sentence!) then it should be pretty easy to discover and locate without lots of thoughts and analysis.
Perhaps say to yourself (gently) 'I am worthless' and take a very close look at exactly what you mean by that phrase.
Don't analyse it or think about it. What exactly is this 'I' that is worthless. What are you referring to here?
What location and form does this 'I' that is worthless take?

Xain ♥

[Choppy]

I noticed you said 'I feel a strong responsibility' - That is interesting.
When you say that, what does 'I' point to? - Take a look calmly as you sit or lie there.
What can you find that 'feels a strong responsibility'

Since I've not gotten the realization yet, that "I" must be my character; I still believe I'm in control of everything, thus i also tell myself i have great responsibility for my actions. I constantly think about cause and effect, which gives rise to anxiety as I can never be sure that i make the right choice.

Firstly, that 'I' is somehow located inside the head/brain. So saying 'I am worthless' you are saying that there is an area of black empty space inside your head that is worthless. I won't question you on this one, since I think you can see it is a rather strange statement. It doesn't really make sense.

Since whatever 'I' is, is here right now (something must be here just to read this sentence!) then it should be pretty easy to discover and locate without lots of thoughts and analysis. Perhaps say to yourself (gently) 'I am worthless' and take a very close look at exactly what you mean by that phrase. Don't analyse it or think about it. What exactly is this 'I' that is worthless. What are you referring to here? What location and form does this 'I' that is worthless take?

When you formulate it like this and i didn't spend any time to analyze it excessively, it came to me that the "I" that i think is worthless is my physical body combined with the concept of myself as a person - mind. The baggage i have in my memories with depressive situations and failures is causing me to reinforce that I'm worthless.

[Choppy]

Since I've not gotten the realization yet, that "I" must be my character; I still believe I'm in control of everything, thus i also tell myself i have great responsibility for my actions. I constantly think about cause and effect, which gives rise to anxiety as I can never be sure that i make the right choice.

When you formulate it like this and i didn't spend any time to analyze it excessively, it came to me that the "I" that i think is worthless is my physical body combined with the concept of myself as a person - mind. The baggage i have in my memories with depressive situations and failures is causing me to reinforce that I'm worthless.

So the answer to both questions is that the "I" is; my mind/physical body.