Hello looking for a guide

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Katex
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Hello looking for a guide

Postby Katex » Mon May 13, 2013 10:10 pm

I'm looking for guidance. I started reading 'The gateless gate' and something happened but I'm not sure what - whether this is is - or not! A few days ago I was reading Shaun's story and it was like a huge chunk of something dropped off 'me', like one of those glaciers you see melting. Something in me has relaxed and it's like a space has developed inside. Not sure what this 'means' if anything.

Before this happened I had hoped I would 'improve' as a person when I awakened - ha ha! But half of me is thinking that it can't be anything significant as I am still nearly just as irritable, competitive, people pleasing, over excitable, scared etc as I have always been but there is this secret smile inside me which, when i go inside, is still there! It's even a laugh at times. Is this just a 'state' or will it last?

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Behzad
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Re: Hello looking for a guide

Postby Behzad » Wed May 15, 2013 4:58 pm

Hello, can I call you katex?

There are a few ground rules - the usual - please respond to confirm:

1. You agree to post at least once a day, time permitting. 
2. I will post questions, which prompt your investigation and answers.
3. When you answer/report, please do so with 110% honestly and answer from what you see,
4. and when you do answer, please answer from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And please, try to keep the language as simple as possible, because English is my second language. If this is fine with you we can start the process : )

You ask if this is a state? What do you see when you look to see if this is a state or not?
Whats youre answer?

And what have changed compare to before you read the book?

Warm regards
Behzad

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Katex
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Re: Hello looking for a guide

Postby Katex » Wed May 15, 2013 10:31 pm

Dear Behzad
Thanks for your offer to guide me. I agree to the terms. I hope I will keep my English simple as you request but let me know of course if you don’t understand – I’m sure you will.
I have wondered whether this is the right time in my life to be engaging with this – there is a lot going on in my life at the moment. Two weeks ago my car was stolen so there are lots of practical things I have to do in connection with that. Today my father had a fall – he is 84 years old – and tomorrow has to have an operation to fix a fractured hip so I’m at the hospital a lot. I’m also incredibly busy at work.
On the other hand last week I had this experience – or realisation or whatever it was and I very much feel the need to understand what has happened, or perhaps gain someone else’s perspective on it and some guidance on how to go with it.
So, to get started -
And what have changed compare to before you read the book?
You asked: And what have changed compare to before you read the book?
I’ll tell you briefly what happened. I was reading the book the Gateless Gatecrashers and had got to Shane’s story. This was near to my heart as I also had practised as a Buddhist for some time. I suddenly realised that the ‘I’ is just a cobbled together mishmash of processes invented by the brain. I saw it. I saw that the mind or brain or whatever needs to make things into shapes, patterns with names, to fill in the gaps to make something of it. I started to laugh. It looked like the ‘I’ was just a scarecrow – made up of bits of processes to look like a real thing, but actually nothing more than mind and body processes interacting.
At that moment it was like my awareness shifted into a different part of me – seemed almost to come from a different part of my head or body. Something in me relaxed, let go, deeply. There was and is this stillness which is deeply there in me and I can access it if I go into myself. When I look around from this it’s not that I am anything, or even I am nothing. There is no I anymore but a space where it used to be.
But here is my confusion. It’s like there are two parallel processes happening. There’s that new awareness or whatever it is. But then there’s like the old ‘me’ going on as well. The ‘I’ keeps doing its old tricks – superiority tricks, aren’t I doing well tricks, tricks about avoiding suffering. And the same fear is there of death, of bad things happening to my kids though there is something different there too. Perhaps it’s like more acceptance that I just can’t do stuff about stuff. That’s really an illusion, trying to control everything. It feels like the old ‘I’ is living this sort of parallel existence to this other thing. Sometimes the new awareness just looks through some of these games – not with judgement, quite lovingly I think. Then also I just keep having lots of thoughts about can this be it, and what next and how to ‘deal’ with this confusion etc. I keep finding myself acting as if I believe in the ‘I’ like I used to, but I don’t, and that feels confusing, jarring. There’s deep peace but also a strong restless questioning of that. There’s this sense of freedom but also some desperate struggle of the ‘I’ to continue its existence.
OK, your other question.You say
You ask if this is a state? What do you see when you look to see if this is a state or not?
No, it’s not a state. That’s what confuses me. The states still come and go – anxiety, irritation, pride. And sometimes it feels like those states of mind bury the understanding. Perhaps it’s that thing of believing that liberation is all about feeling blissful – and it isn’t of course I’ve heard that. I’m frightened of losing this realization though that’s the thing. And frightened that trying to hold onto it will also mean I lose it.
Thanks for your time reading this Behzad.
Katex

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Behzad
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Re: Hello looking for a guide

Postby Behzad » Thu May 16, 2013 10:17 am

I have wondered whether this is the right time in my life to be engaging with this – there is a lot going on in my life at the moment. Two weeks ago my car was stolen so there are lots of practical things I have to do in connection with that. Today my father had a fall – he is 84 years old – and tomorrow has to have an operation to fix a fractured hip so I’m at the hospital a lot. I’m also incredibly busy at work.
On the other hand last week I had this experience – or realisation or whatever it was and I very much feel the need to understand what has happened, or perhaps gain someone else’s perspective on it and some guidance on how to go with it.
Sounds like a lot to deal with. May you be well in all this. The only moment you can ever deal with it is now. Outer situations has nothing to do with this. There can be caos in youre life situation or you could be having a nice and peaceful time. Doesnt matter. Its just about looking and verifying/confirming if there is an I/Me here no matter how youre life looks like. Its not a big deal. Just have a look to see if there has ever been an I/Me here at all?
But here is my confusion. It’s like there are two parallel processes happening. There’s that new awareness or whatever it is. But then there’s like the old ‘me’ going on as well. The ‘I’ keeps doing its old tricks – superiority tricks, aren’t I doing well tricks, tricks about avoiding suffering. And the same fear is there of death, of bad things happening to my kids though there is something different there too. Perhaps it’s like more acceptance that I just can’t do stuff about stuff. That’s really an illusion, trying to control everything. It feels like the old ‘I’ is living this sort of parallel existence to this other thing. Sometimes the new awareness just looks through some of these games – not with judgement, quite lovingly I think. Then also I just keep having lots of thoughts about can this be it, and what next and how to ‘deal’ with this confusion etc. I keep finding myself acting as if I believe in the ‘I’ like I used to, but I don’t, and that feels confusing, jarring. There’s deep peace but also a strong restless questioning of that. There’s this sense of freedom but also some desperate struggle of the ‘I’ to continue its existence.
Thats the old conditions that comes up, old beliefs, old thoughts, old concepts etc. Is there an I/Me that can change the conditioning? And is there an I/Me that all this conditions happen to? Look and tell me what you see?

I thoughts will keep arising. Thoughts about you will still arise, but does it matter if you know for sure that there is no I/Me here? Can it be okej for the illusion to be as long as there is a knowing that it is only a illusion?

Do you mind that people talk about Santa Claus every year? Does it matter that storys about Santa still comes and goes as long as you know that Santa is not real?
No, it’s not a state. That’s what confuses me. The states still come and go – anxiety, irritation, pride. And sometimes it feels like those states of mind bury the understanding. Perhaps it’s that thing of believing that liberation is all about feeling blissful – and it isn’t of course I’ve heard that. I’m frightened of losing this realization though that’s the thing. And frightened that trying to hold onto it will also mean I lose it.
Nothing can bury the understanding. No matter in what state you are in, no matter in what situation you are in, no matter in what circumstance you are in there is no self there. Thats it. The knowing that I am not, I dont exist. So check during the the day, no matter what you do, no matter what happens look and see if you find any an I/Me there? Let me know in what situations you have looked. It may be during talking, walking, reading, seeing or whatever other situations you may be in. Is there a self present in those situations?

"I am frightened of losing this realization", is a thought/story. "And I am frightened that trying to hold onto it will also mean I lose it" <---- this is also a thought/story, right? Where is actual I/Me outside of these thoughts that can hold on or lose this realization? Look???

Is there anyone that has this realization/knowing that there is no I/Me?

There are a few questions for you here. I want you to answer every singel one of them. No need to think about them, thats to complicated. Just have look and tell me what you see : )

Love
Behzad

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Katex
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Re: Hello looking for a guide

Postby Katex » Thu May 16, 2013 10:50 pm

Dear Behzad
Thanks for your really helpful reply and questions. I have had the most stressful day I’ve had for decades – I won’t go into details but it seems extraordinary that so many major challenges should arrive on one day. But I really wanted to post because this is such an important thing to me now. Right now there is tremendous stress in my body, heart beating, head dazed, but I can still touch back, when I remember to make that movement, into that something else, openness, spaciousness.

To turn to your questions. I'm so sorry but I haven't been able to think about and answer every single one today, but have tried to engage with them as best I can. My energy is really flagging now, but i want to feed back on some - I will keep thinking about the others too.
Just have a look to see if there has ever been an I/Me here at all?
I felt stressed while looking at my work diary, contracted, I felt immersed in thoughts, concerns, the sense of needing to do things. Then I looked to see if there was a I and then there wasn’t. Sitting with my father who is very poorly after his operation, there was no I when I checked. Sitting here typing, when I check back there is just a space.

Now to a really powerful question you gave me:
Thats the old conditions that comes up, old beliefs, old thoughts, old concepts etc. Is there an I/Me that can change the conditioning? And is there an I/Me that all this conditions happen to? Look and tell me what you see?
Now this feels really important - it is a sticking place. When I check this I realise that there is still this strong identification with an I who wants to steer the process, to be in charge, especially of my thoughts and feelings (I’ve sort of given up most of the belief that I could or even want to control things like events and people). But this last thought, it’s like Hitler locked in his bunker at the end of the war. It’s all over but this thought is still holding out, believing in itself as supreme ruler. So is the thought that there is an I that the conditions happen to. When I looked at this thought, I felt a fear of letting go, like it was like letting go into an abyss. The feeling arose of a great vulnerability here and wanting to hang on to the last little bit of ‘security’ (ha ha not really secure at all!).
"I am frightened of losing this realization", is a thought/story. "And I am frightened that trying to hold onto it will also mean I lose it" <---- this is also a thought/story, right? Where is actual I/Me outside of these thoughts that can hold on or lose this realization? Look???

Is there anyone that has this realization/knowing that there is no I/Me?
That felt like a relief in one way but still a sense of holding on. When I go to the spaciousness none of this matters, there’s just spaciousness. Then comes the contraction and the I thought makes a lot of noise and my head goes tight.’ Go on go on let go’ something says but I’m not quite sure how yet. I know there is no me to hold onto it but the thought is fighting on 'I'm going to manage this, to keep it in order' then bliss when I let go of this.

With thanks and gratitude
Katex

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Behzad
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Re: Hello looking for a guide

Postby Behzad » Fri May 17, 2013 10:13 am

I felt stressed while looking at my work diary, contracted, I felt immersed in thoughts, concerns, the sense of needing to do things. Then I looked to see if there was a I and then there wasn’t. Sitting with my father who is very poorly after his operation, there was no I when I checked. Sitting here typing, when I check back there is just a space.
When reading this sentence right now. Is reading happening or are you reading this? Look in youre experience and see wich one is real?
Now this feels really important - it is a sticking place. When I check this I realise that there is still this strong identification with an I who wants to steer the process, to be in charge, especially of my thoughts and feelings (I’ve sort of given up most of the belief that I could or even want to control things like events and people). But this last thought, it’s like Hitler locked in his bunker at the end of the war. It’s all over but this thought is still holding out, believing in itself as supreme ruler. So is the thought that there is an I that the conditions happen to. When I looked at this thought, I felt a fear of letting go, like it was like letting go into an abyss. The feeling arose of a great vulnerability here and wanting to hang on to the last little bit of ‘security’ (ha ha not really secure at all!).
Good, so lets take a look at this.

Become really curious about how things happen during the day. How action happens. During walking, talking, cooking, being with people etc is there a I/Me doing all of that? Is a I/Me needed? Could it be that everything is happening whitout a I/Me?

Could it be that everything is happenig naturally/spontaneously? And that I/Me is a layer/a story on top of that wich is happening? A story about you doing things? A story about things is happening to me?

Is the story real? can you see it happening with the eyes or is it just imagination?

Now, look and see if there is anyone controlling these things.

Are you doing the seeing?
Hearing?
tasting?
feeling?
smelling?

Can you decide to stop any of these things?

Look at every singel one of the senses and see if you control any of these? IS there a ruler/controller?

Or are they functioning effortlessly?

Is there a controller/ruler in all this?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now take a look at the thought stream.

Can you control the thoughts?
Can you decide what you will be thinking for the next 2 minutes?
Is I a thought or the thinker of thoughts?
Do you see a thinker when thoughts is happening?

There is a lot of questions here and I know there is a lot going on in youre life right now. But the only way to heal the confusion that is happening is to look in to every singel question here so there can be a letting go of the thoughts/beliefs that has been creating the confusion about the I/Me. So for youre own best. Look at all the questions and answer from what you see. No need to think about these things. That is just to complicated, just have a look to see how things actually are. So please, answer all questions, look at all the questions for youre own best.

Lots of love
Behzad

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Katex
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Re: Hello looking for a guide

Postby Katex » Fri May 17, 2013 10:55 pm

Dear Bezad
I’ll really try to deal with all your questions today.
Become really curious about how things happen during the day. How action happens. During walking, talking, cooking, being with people etc is there a I/Me doing all of that? Is a I/Me needed? Could it be that everything is happening whitout a I/Me?

Could it be that everything is happenig naturally/spontaneously? And that I/Me is a layer/a story on top of that wich is happening? A story about you doing things? A story about things is happening to me?

Is the story real? can you see it happening with the eyes or is it just imagination?

Now, look and see if there is anyone controlling these things.
There is no I/me doing things. Things are occurring, yes, being done, doing themselves as streams of events, and there is a story going on around that about the I. Today ‘I’ realised that that word ‘I’ is very unhelpful at the moment. Everything is happening without a ‘me’ and the me is a layer that’s a good word. It’s like there are two layers. On top there’s identification with the me at times,a lot of stress and fear, then when I let myself sink down there is a strong sense of openness, peace. It’s quite powerful and I’ve not felt that before in my life in this way. The stress and fear is powerful, and so is the peace. Two streams moving along together.
Are things are happening to I/me
– now this feels a bit stickier. But no, when I look, no me. Also notice that no-thing is happening really.
So yes, it’s all a story, the I/Me and the events. It’s like being an actor in a play. When you’re acting you are totally in the part, immersed in it. Then when you’re not you’re not. But then here there is nothing but the play, no ‘offstage’ I guess. But still the sense of acting a play … The story is not real.
Are things happening in me?
This is really interesting. Yes I’m still thinking of ‘inside’ and ‘outside’ as different. That story is very strong I notice.

Are you doing the seeing?
Hearing?
tasting?
feeling?
smelling?
Can you decide to stop any of these things?

Look at every singel one of the senses and see if you control any of these? IS there a ruler/controller?

Or are they functioning effortlessly?

Is there a controller/ruler in all this?
No – hearing, tasting, feeling, smelling are all just happening. But here’s something interesting. It’s like there’s some illusion of ‘the observer’ . But when I look there’s isn’t an observer. Before I read the book I was making an effort to be awareness. Now I don’t have to make an effort, just allow myself to sort of sink down into it. There isn’t the effort, more a sort of movement of looking at these events. Sometimes the ‘observer’ feels more solid, then that feels like a ‘me’ – then when I look at that …no, nothing.
Are you doing the seeing?
Hearing?
tasting?
feeling?
smelling?

Can you decide to stop any of these things?

Look at every singel one of the senses and see if you control any of these? IS there a ruler/controller?

Or are they functioning effortlessly?

Is there a controller/ruler in all this?
No, can’t control thoughts, can’t decide what to think. Am aware of the thought arising, then sometimes a little tensing movement in the body as if to grab onto it. This seems connected to the illusion of ‘I/me’.
‘I am going to think about this’ is a thought, with a movement of desire, no there isn’t really an I. Saying that phrase over and over. Feels like the actor – a grand feeling of control, then the sense of seeing through it as it evaporates into nothing. Thoughts arise. This is where language is feeling very important at the moment. Just not using the ‘I’ is helpful. When I is used I feel a tensing in my body. If I don’t use it openness remains. It feels good not using the ‘I’.

Hope I’ve covered everything. I'm struggling a bit with the quote function here. I have actually gone through all your questions and thought about them, but not sure whether I've shown that very well.

Thanks for your continuing help…
Love Katex

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Behzad
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Re: Hello looking for a guide

Postby Behzad » Sat May 18, 2013 11:01 am

There is no I/me doing things. Things are occurring, yes, being done, doing themselves as streams of events, and there is a story going on around that about the I. Today ‘I’ realised that that word ‘I’ is very unhelpful at the moment. Everything is happening without a ‘me’ and the me is a layer that’s a good word. It’s like there are two layers. On top there’s identification with the me at times,a lot of stress and fear, then when I let myself sink down there is a strong sense of openness, peace. It’s quite powerful and I’ve not felt that before in my life in this way. The stress and fear is powerful, and so is the peace. Two streams moving along together.
Yes, beautifully put that there is two streams moving along together. So, wich one is real and wich one is imagination? have a look and see?

Is there really identification happening with a me? Where is the me that gets identified with thoughts?
Is it really a me that gets identified with thoughts and then comes out of the identification to openness, peace?

or

is I was lost in thoughts another thought? Could it be that sometimes there is a experience of zooming in thoughts happening, being lost in thoughts and few moments later there is the experience of seeing the thoughts, zooming out happenig, whitout there being an I that moves in and out of thought?

Just pure experiencing happening, lost in thoughts (zooming in thoughts), out of thoughts (zooming out thoughts? Where is the I in that?

Take a look to verify how things are and whats real and unreal, whats really happening and what you belived/thought were happening?
– now this feels a bit stickier. But no, when I look, no me. Also notice that no-thing is happening really.
So yes, it’s all a story, the I/Me and the events. It’s like being an actor in a play. When you’re acting you are totally in the part, immersed in it. Then when you’re not you’re not. But then here there is nothing but the play, no ‘offstage’ I guess. But still the sense of acting a play … The story is not real.
Are you controling the actor Katex?
is there you that is whatching the movie of katex or is it just a movie about katex?
Are you in the movie?

If not, have you ever been in the movie? Can you ever be in the movie?
Are things happening in me?
This is really interesting. Yes I’m still thinking of ‘inside’ and ‘outside’ as different. That story is very strong I notice.
If there is no you, can anything be inside you or outside of you?
Doesnt inside or outside require a refrencepoint where you are, so you can compare to other stuffs if they are inside or outside of you?

Can anything be inside Santa Claus or outside of Santa Claus if it doesnt exist? Have a look...
No – hearing, tasting, feeling, smelling are all just happening. But here’s something interesting. It’s like there’s some illusion of ‘the observer’ . But when I look there’s isn’t an observer. Before I read the book I was making an effort to be awareness. Now I don’t have to make an effort, just allow myself to sort of sink down into it. There isn’t the effort, more a sort of movement of looking at these events. Sometimes the ‘observer’ feels more solid, then that feels like a ‘me’ – then when I look at that …no, nothing.
Is there you that can be awareness?
Look in youre actual experience right now, is there a observer? Where is the observer?

Maybe it was just a belief, something we had learnt, been said, been told that there is a you there. Take a look at that place and see if this is right or not? Is there a you, a observer there?

You are doing really great, keep going and look at all the questions. So doubts, confusion, old beliefs can fall of when you see how things actually are compare to what you have thought/belived they were.

Keep digging...

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Katex
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Re: Hello looking for a guide

Postby Katex » Sun May 19, 2013 12:44 am

Dear Behzad

I bought a mouse today so that I can try to use the quote function better!
]Yes, beautifully put that there is two streams moving along together. So, wich one is real and wich one is imagination? have a look and see?

The ‘story’ stream is not real, although it feels real when identified with. The other is like the ground of everything which holds everything within it.

Is there really identification happening with a me? Where is the me that gets identified with thoughts?
Is it really a me that gets identified with thoughts and then comes out of the identification to openness, peace?

or

is I was lost in thoughts another thought? Could it be that sometimes there is a experience of zooming in thoughts happening, being lost in thoughts and few moments later there is the experience of seeing the thoughts, zooming out happenig, whitout there being an I that moves in and out of thought?

Just pure experiencing happening, lost in thoughts (zooming in thoughts), out of thoughts (zooming out thoughts? Where is the I in that?

Take a look to verify how things are and whats real and unreal, whats really happening and what you belived/thought were happening?
This is really really helpful and clarifying. When I looked at this it I felt this fear, like there’s nowhere to ‘stand’ or rather, there isn’t anything to stand with. Then I felt a great relief, a release into a kind of sea of experience. When the mind gets hold of it there’s a kind of fear, when I relax into experience there’s relief.
Are you controling the actor Katex?
is there you that] is whatching the movie of katex or is it just a movie about katex?
Are you in the movie?

If not, have you ever been in the movie? Can you ever be in the movie?
No I am the movie, I’m not in it, well, rather everything is the movie including the illusion of I/me. There is only the movie because the ‘other stream’ is also what the movie is made of. I’m not separate from the movie at all. Wow!
If there is no you, can anything be inside you or outside of you?
Doesnt inside or outside require a refrencepoint where you are, so you can compare to other stuffs if they are inside or outside of you?
Can anything be inside Santa Claus or outside of Santa Claus if it doesnt exist? Have a look..
Yes! When I try to figure this out with the mind I get tangled up but when I go to my experience it feels totally true. Everything arises within awareness which is just awareness wherever. When I try to use my mind on this I get separation, but resting in experience it’s all one.
Is there you that can be awareness?
Look in youre actual experience right now, is there a observer? Where is the observer?

Maybe it was just a belief, something we had learnt, been said, been told that there is a you there. Take a look at that place and see if this is right or not? Is there a you, a observer there?
There is just awareness. It doesn’t feel right to say ‘I am awareness’ like they say in some nondual teaching, because there is no I. It’s more like awareness IS.

No no observer- what a relief! It feels like I can just rest into life. This post has cleared up a lot for me.

But areas of confusion and fear remain. There’s fear when I think about the possibility of my father dying – and when I think about this it’s not the fear of losing him (though i would miss him) but the fear of him being afraid, his fear. I notice also that there’s a sense of my having to make everything OK for my children, a fear of their suffering too. These areas are much less compelling I notice than they used to be, more ‘seen through’ but still there.

With gratitude for your insight and support

Love Katex

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Behzad
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Re: Hello looking for a guide

Postby Behzad » Sun May 19, 2013 5:39 pm

The ‘story’ stream is not real, although it feels real when identified with. The other is like the ground of everything which holds everything within it.
I know that you have look into this before but I am going to ask again. When identification with the story happens, is there a actual I/Me that gets identified or is I got identified another story, another thought? Is there anyone that can be in the story/thought or outside the story/thought?
This is really really helpful and clarifying. When I looked at this it I felt this fear, like there’s nowhere to ‘stand’ or rather, there isn’t anything to stand with. Then I felt a great relief, a release into a kind of sea of experience. When the mind gets hold of it there’s a kind of fear, when I relax into experience there’s relief.
Beautiful...
No I am the movie, I’m not in it, well, rather everything is the movie including the illusion of I/me. There is only the movie because the ‘other stream’ is also what the movie is made of. I’m not separate from the movie at all. Wow!
Woowww, nicely put. Right on : )
Yes! When I try to figure this out with the mind I get tangled up but when I go to my experience it feels totally true. Everything arises within awareness which is just awareness wherever. When I try to use my mind on this I get separation, but resting in experience it’s all one.


Yes, very good.
There is just awareness. It doesn’t feel right to say ‘I am awareness’ like they say in some nondual teaching, because there is no I. It’s more like awareness IS.
YES; YES YES; YES,yes, yes, yes :))) That was my first thought too when it was seen that there is no self. It can be very misleading to say that you are awareness and very confusing. Beautifully said Katex, I am so happy, lovely.
No no observer- what a relief! It feels like I can just rest into life. This post has cleared up a lot for me.
So nice, no observer, no you and you are not awareness. There is no you, just life happening.
But areas of confusion and fear remain. There’s fear when I think about the possibility of my father dying – and when I think about this it’s not the fear of losing him (though i would miss him) but the fear of him being afraid, his fear. I notice also that there’s a sense of my having to make everything OK for my children, a fear of their suffering too. These areas are much less compelling I notice than they used to be, more ‘seen through’ but still there.
Yes, I see. If thats whats happening at the moment then thats perfectly fine. When you see that life is all there is. Can anything go wrong in life? From the perspective of life, is there a death? Do you think life complains about life?

And

If there is no I/Me, can you ever suffer?

This is some deep questions, you have to look to be able to answer them. But that can be good to let go of some old beliefs and bring some clarity. Look into this and let me know whats seen.

Love
Behzad

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Katex
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Re: Hello looking for a guide

Postby Katex » Sun May 19, 2013 11:09 pm

I know that you have look into this before but I am going to ask again. When identification with the story happens, is there a actual I/Me that gets identified or is I got identified another story, another thought? Is there anyone that can be in the story/thought or outside the story/thought?
This afternoon an old pattern arose with my partner where there is this story about being misunderstood and ‘crushed’. On top of that there was another story which was oh no, here I go again and thinking ‘I’ was identified with the story again and all sorts of thoughts about how ‘I’ was back to square one etc. So a believing in the I occurred very strongly. I was really surprised how painful it was, and looking back on it it was like the ‘I/Me’ was struggling to ‘get out of’ this experience (ha ha as if experience could be ‘got out of’!). But then I was surprised that it actually passed really quickly – much more quickly than it would have done before when ‘I’ would have hung onto it for a long time. So… no there isn’t actually an ‘I/me’ that can identify with the story but at that moment there was a belief in a separate ‘I/Me’ ‘having’ an experience of pain. Looking back on it now it’s like it was a dream. Pain and suffering arose, and – yes - the thought of identifying arose and the idea of a separate self arose. But now I look nothing actually changed – weird! There was a little drama but that is all part of it too. Hard to explain this.
If thats whats happening at the moment then thats perfectly fine. When you see that life is all there is. Can anything go wrong in life?
The feeling here is a sense of everything being exactly right – I mean not right which not a good word, but just because it IS it is the only thing that could be. I don’t feel anything’s going wrong at all – it couldn’t be right or wrong but Is and there is a flowing with it going on. It’s sort of totally complete, whatever it is. With that goes a sense of contentment.
From the perspective of life, is there a death? Do you think life complains about life?
There is no death because all there is is the flow of life, which includes death or change and is kind of eternal. If there’s no separate self, there’s no death, one thing just flows into another. I wrote that but I’m not sure I entirely ‘get’ that. I get it and I don’t get it. The sense of this is there then it isn’t as the mind tries to figure it out. Maybe its that word ‘death’ – so many times this comes back to words and their ability to hypnotise. It’s this big bogeyman word ‘death’. Now there’s the thought everything is life, everything is death. They are inseparable, the same.
Death though as the end of the show – a sense that I don’t want it to end – that’s the ‘I/me’ again – which rises up and then falls away again. Today I lay in a hammock in the sun and closed my eyes and relaxed gratefully. The thought arose ‘This is what it must be like to die’ and it felt blissful.
If there is no I/Me, can you ever suffer?
Aha this is a big one! Logically no, ‘I’ can’t suffer, that can be understood. However, I think about the great big ocean of suffering of people of the world - I’m not sure. Suffering arises, believing in the I/Me brings suffering. It’s like it exists but it doesn’t exist. Other’s suffering – well it isn’t THEIR suffering as there isn’t a separation between me and them. Not sure here – would like to let this question ferment some more overnight.
Thanks so much for this

Love Katex

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Re: Hello looking for a guide

Postby Behzad » Mon May 20, 2013 11:27 am

This afternoon an old pattern arose with my partner where there is this story about being misunderstood and ‘crushed’. On top of that there was another story which was oh no, here I go again and thinking ‘I’ was identified with the story again and all sorts of thoughts about how ‘I’ was back to square one etc. So a believing in the I occurred very strongly. I was really surprised how painful it was, and looking back on it it was like the ‘I/Me’ was struggling to ‘get out of’ this experience (ha ha as if experience could be ‘got out of’!). But then I was surprised that it actually passed really quickly – much more quickly than it would have done before when ‘I’ would have hung onto it for a long time. So… no there isn’t actually an ‘I/me’ that can identify with the story but at that moment there was a belief in a separate ‘I/Me’ ‘having’ an experience of pain. Looking back on it now it’s like it was a dream. Pain and suffering arose, and – yes - the thought of identifying arose and the idea of a separate self arose. But now I look nothing actually changed – weird! There was a little drama but that is all part of it too. Hard to explain this.
Yes, that can happen the belief in a seperate self but it doesnt lasts for long.
There is no death because all there is is the flow of life, which includes death or change and is kind of eternal. If there’s no separate self, there’s no death, one thing just flows into another. I wrote that but I’m not sure I entirely ‘get’ that. I get it and I don’t get it. The sense of this is there then it isn’t as the mind tries to figure it out. Maybe its that word ‘death’ – so many times this comes back to words and their ability to hypnotise. It’s this big bogeyman word ‘death’. Now there’s the thought everything is life, everything is death. They are inseparable, the same.
Death though as the end of the show – a sense that I don’t want it to end – that’s the ‘I/me’ again – which rises up and then falls away again. Today I lay in a hammock in the sun and closed my eyes and relaxed gratefully. The thought arose ‘This is what it must be like to die’ and it felt blissful.
If there is a belief that I am this body/mind then ofcourse there is death. But when its seen that there is no speperate self, there is no seperation whatsoever anywhere, then the belief in death goes away to. There is just life showing up in million different forms. A body may go away, but there is no seperate entity in that body that dies, just a belief that dies. Its like the wave may think that it can die because it belives that its seperate from the ocean. But when its seen that there is no wave, that the wave has always been the ocean then the belief that the wave can die goes to. Because there has never been a wave to begin with, just the ocean.
Aha this is a big one! Logically no, ‘I’ can’t suffer, that can be understood. However, I think about the great big ocean of suffering of people of the world - I’m not sure. Suffering arises, believing in the I/Me brings suffering. It’s like it exists but it doesn’t exist. Other’s suffering – well it isn’t THEIR suffering as there isn’t a separation between me and them. Not sure here – would like to let this question ferment some more overnight.


These questions I asked was a little bit to much. Can be to much to ask this in the beginning when this no self thing has been seen. These are questions that you can look into later if you feel moved to. But the most important thing is to be clear about that there is no seperate self living life. Are you having any doubts about that?

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Re: Hello looking for a guide

Postby Katex » Tue May 21, 2013 5:31 pm

Dear Behzad

I'm sorry I wasn't able to reply yesterday - our internet connection at home has gone down so I'm posting from work.
But the most important thing is to be clear about that there is no seperate self living life. Are you having any doubts about that?
Yes I can say that I am clear about this no separate self thing. It is a bit weird because much stress is arising due to 3 major situations in life at the same time that are needing a lot of focused responding to. The body is registering stress yet within all this this perspective of no separation endures. When I zoom out from one of the tasks that needs to be done and the focus on it, it's there. It's there all the time even when I'm not zoomed out. There are streams of responses and yet they're not 'me'.

So no, no doubts. Yes, some areas of questioning about death, suffering and I'm glad you posed the questions because it's good to keep questioning and exploring this perspective and the ripples it has. the sense is that this will take time to bed in. And it is miraculous and yet so mudane! I can't believe it really is so ordinary and like they say it was there all the time, is there all the time.

So much gratitude to you and to Elena and Ilona who have offered this so generously. How fantastic this forum is, what a gift is being given to the world!

Love
Katex

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Re: Hello looking for a guide

Postby Behzad » Tue May 21, 2013 9:03 pm

Beautiful that this is clear, makes me really glad.

This is really ordinary and life continues as it has always done. But now there is a knowing/seeing that cant be changed, that there is no I/Me and has never been. So you can stop looking and relax. If there would be a situtation where you may feel that there is I/Me there, then simply take a look and see if thats true. Because no matter in what situation or circumstance you are in there can never, ever be a true substantial self there. So the seriousness of life can soften a bit and there can be more enjoyment of life for no one : )

We have some questions we ask to see that this no self thing has really been seen and that gives some other guides a chanse to go through youre answers and maybe ask some more questions to clarify some things if needed. So please take youre time and answer these questions.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.
6) Anything to add?

Lots of love
Behzad

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Re: Hello looking for a guide

Postby Katex » Thu May 23, 2013 12:39 pm

Dear Bezhad
1 Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
No! The separate sense of self is an illusion so doesn’t exist and has never existed so in other words it’s not like you get rid of it, but it is just seen that it isn’t there that you have been misunderstanding the situation all along.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
Of course it can’t be known for sure, but perhaps there is some part of the brain that function to make fragments of experience into entities or things. It seems that it takes unconnected bits and makes them into nameable forms. Like when people look at clouds and see animals, faces, things. They are not really there but the brain likes to make shapes and movements into things and then name them as an entity. Same thing applies in making events into stories. Just like this the ‘I/Me’ is a story that seems to unify experience. I write ‘bits’ or parts but these too are not discrete entities. In reality there is just movement and energy (not a good word but the best one I can come up with) in a constant state of flux. But this can’t be seen when these ‘namings’ are believed in as true reality in themselves and not just a sort of play.

It does seem to start in childhood – children have much more sense of flowing with life. Not sure what happens exactly. Language seems an important factor as something that solidifies experience into separateness and creates the illusion of ‘things’, particularly the ‘I’. Just trying to explain things in language leads down paths of separateness that it’s hard to avoid.

We develop an illusion of control which needs ‘objects’ to be controlled. Or perhaps we feel we need to control because we live in a world where we believe we are separate from everything else – yes feels more that way round.
It’s like the ‘I/ME’ is in a constant battle to survive, because it doesn’t exist! This creates a tremendous discomfort because things as they are aren’t seen. It’s exhausting to keep an illusion going when it’s constantly being challenged by reality. The I illusion is always at odds with what is, and it goes alongside the illusion that we can control things so it feels very desperate as it struggles to hold back the waves!
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Compared to before this dialogue was started, here’s a deep down sense of peace, of being here, of being at home in the world, happy just to be here in the world. I’m not fighting things or wanting them to be different. IT’s like everything is part of me, except of course there’s no me so everything is just one. There’s a space that’s opened up through which things move. And what a relief, nothing to do, nothing to control. How could anything be wrong because the idea that anything could be different from the way it is seems laughable. And with this there’s been tremendous stress arising in (my) life in the past two weeks – there’s been stress in the body, contraction and intense pressure and yet also this sense of flow. In other ways stress has decreased, relating with other people has become so much more pleasurable, so easy. The old feelings, the conditioning is still there but it’s seen through quicker, like it’s opaque. The beauty of the world is so much more so – textures of things are fascinating, colours, shapes sounds when I zoom in on them are lovely! The I illusion is no longer filtering the senses. Acceptance is there too – before I used to ‘try’ to accept things, making an effort and talking myself into accepting. Now everything is accepted before I even notice they are ‘there’. Not even accepted because there is no me to accept them – it all just is! Language just fails here to describe it.

But overall it’s all so ordinary, yes that sense that ‘is this really all it is?’, yet also something quite extraordinary. Everything just the same, everything so different. Weird.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
It started when I was reading the ‘Gateless Gatecrashers’ book – the story about Shawn (?). I just suddenly saw this thing about the ‘I/Me’ being the mind/brain whatever putting together bits into an imagined thing – how we kind of form thoughts, feelings, sensations into the I but they are of course not anything but impersonal arisings. But then there was still I/me illusion remaining so then an important question was about controlling the process that the original realisation started – was there an I controlling it. This idea that somehow ‘I’ had to steer it or do something about it - what a relief to look and see that no there wasn’t and I so this was not possible. This idea of zooming in and zooming out happening rather than a ‘me’ which was somehow directing awareness was really useful here. Also that there was nothing happening to me – at first it felt like there was a realisation happening to me – but then with Bezhad’s question I realised that of course there wasn’t a me for anything to be happening ‘to’. Similiarly this sense of inside and out that I still had – that was important questioning because that really joined everything up into this whole that’s just happening, happening, happening.
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.
No! Impulses arise to respond or affect events but these impulses are not chosen by anything – they occur. These impulses seem to arise, for instance if discomfort arises and I want to change position of the body it seems that the impulse to move arises and then a thought will arise ‘I want to move my leg’. Previously I would have thought that it was the thought that was deciding, but now there is the realisation that the thought is just arising in parallel to the impulse, no one is in charge.

This last week I had to organise something in my personal life which was extremely time-pressured with quite a lot at stake and involved doing a tremendous amount of extra work and organising under pressure. Also my elderly father was admitted to hospital for an emergency operation and is still very unwell. My work has been at its busiest and most demanding. There has been a tremendous amount of stress and tension arising in my body and the sense of being driven on to get things done in time. There was not a state of peace! So questions have arisen at times as to whether this no self was really realised since this stress state was so intense and at times a sense of almost total immersion in this ‘must get it done’ thought. Yet with this there has also been a sense of zooming out and that these feelings, thoughts, processes are still contained within another perspective. Also I was amused at times when I reflected that it would be totally ok if the outcome was different from the one that was being driven towards. So there’s a question I suppose - something about seeking reassurance about is this how it is, or is there more to be done? If I look at this question what is found is that seems that this is very much a process that continues, after the realisation occurs. Confusion is there sometimes, disbelief, questioning, then wonder, gratitude, a smile. Feel it would be good to have some follow up support over time of others who are going through similar.

6) Anything to add?
Marvellous process, marvellous generosity of all involved in the forum. Thank you thank you. Just astonishing really.

Love Katex


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