Looking for a Guide

[natlouise]

Looking for a guide to see the illusion of self.

[Metta777]

Hello NL,

I would be happy to be your guide. First read the disclaimer, then let me know if that is agreeable to you. Then we agree to touch base once a day and there will be questions that you agree to answer as openly and as honestly as possible. Let me know something about yourself and what your expectations of liberation are. Please get familiar with the quote function so the thread will be easy to read for both of us. thank you, Metta777

[natlouise]

Thanks Metta777,

I have read the disclaimer and agree to it. I have familiarised myself with how guiding through direct pointing works by reading my husbands posts and some of those in the gateless gatecrashers pdf.

In my story I had an unhappy, abusive childhood and chose to identify with many negative thoughts about myself having heard them from my father (e.g. I'm useless, nobody loves me, I'll never amount to anything). I immersed myself in that identity for decades, slowly seeing it as false (not the I portion, the useless, unloved bit) as I simultaneously attached onto the identity of a "born again christian". The ideas that I am unconditionally loved and accepted in my entirety; that I am not just of this world - of flesh and bones, but something "other"; that I have all that I need/will receive what I need without striving, were all satisfactory for a while.

And yet I know there's more. I can sense it, beyond my mind. Truth.

Expectations? I expect that liberation won't be an earth shattering event...more like suddenly seeing the image in a "magic eye" picture when I couldn't before...an "Ah, of course, I see it now" moment. Actually, it's probably more accurate to say it's the other way round - thinking I see images in the random, then realising it's not there after all.

[Metta777]

Hi Nat L,

In my story I had an unhappy, abusive childhood and chose to identify with many negative thoughts about myself having heard them from my father (e.g. I'm useless, nobody loves me, I'll never amount to anything). I immersed myself in that identity for decades, slowly seeing it as false (not the I portion, the useless, unloved bit) as I simultaneously attached onto the identity of a "born again christian".

When looking at the I in the story is there really and I there? We are a product of conditioning, as a child we are quickly told what gender we are and what the expectations for that are. We are given labels for everything, colors, objects, animals. We automatically believe everything we are told. But from the story there was awareness eventually that what was imprinted on the mind was not true. Look behind the thoughts , who is thinking? Also, it was mentioned about making choices, so when you think you are making a choice can you say exactly when the choice was made?

chose to identify

Did you choose to be unhappy and feel unloved, when was that choice made? Isn't it just thoughts imprinted from your father who was kicking around in your head? Are thoughts Facts? I don't want to overwhelm with too much at once , so give some real thought to the questions. Sit very quietly in a chair ,feet flat on the floor, relaxed. Feel the body breathing, are the muscles tensed? Is there a self when looking within that can be found , when did the self start? Is there a self telling the body to breathe? When I use " I " it is for the sake of communication, otherwise it would be clumsey. Namaste, Metta

[natlouise]

Morning Metta,

I also use "I" here due to convention and to avoid confusion. I recognise that "I" is not in the body, nor the emotions, feelings or thoughts because these come and go. I believe that "I" is not a separate self although I don't quite see it yet.

When looking at the I in the story is there really and I there?...Look behind the thoughts , who is thinking?

I would automatically say that my spirit is there - but "spirit" is just another label to try and articulate the combination of thoughts, feelings and experiences that we have. There has been a conscious awareness for a while now that thinking thoughts of self is abstract. What I mean is, I can visualise them as lines of script inside my head and there's a degree of disconnect with them. A deeper thought appears at the same time - "they're just thoughts, that's not 'me'". So, who is thinking? I guess no one; thoughts are just thoughts, meaning is attach through habit and because we're told to.

so when you think you are making a choice can you say exactly when the choice was made?

The more I think about the process, the more I think not, no. I've always considered allowing or resisting as the point where a choice was made. Thank you for challenging that. After some time thinking about direct experience I can now recognise that choosing/deciding just happens: it appears. Emotions and feelings come and go and add another dimension. Thoughts try to make meaning out of it all, looking for shapes and patterns we're conditioned to believe are necessary; whether something - a decision, an event/experience happening around us, a thought - is good or bad, right or wrong. Past experiences of cause and effect (this consequence happened because that happened first) suggest a pattern for the future, even though the future doesn't exist.

Are thoughts Facts?

No, there's no tangible substance to thoughts at all. It all seems like a play. Thoughts are the script, behaviour/experiences are the set, people are the actors, and emotions/feelings give texture to the performance. So who is the audience? Who is watching this fine production? I sense the answer is no one.

This has taken about 3 hours of contemplation already so I'll break there! Will probably write some more later in the day xx

[natlouise]

Sit very quietly in a chair ,feet flat on the floor, relaxed. Feel the body breathing, are the muscles tensed? Is there a self when looking within that can be found , when did the self start? Is there a self telling the body to breathe?

Metta, I've done what you asked. On my own in a quiet room (slight shoulder tension only) I cannot find self within when I look for it. There is no self telling the body to breathe, there's just breathing happening.

I went for coffee with my husband this afternoon. He also spoke about characters and a play happening around us, but he expanded the concept even more. It is a thought in my head that suggests that all the other customers in the coffee shop, including my husband, have thoughts/emotions/consciousness of their own. Indeed, it is a thought in my head that suggests that other people still continue to exist when I move away from them. I cannot know any existence other than my own direct experience of thought, feelings, sensations etc. This reminded me of a time, after the Truman Show movie came out, when I had occasional senses of actually being in a show myself.

Something else: while in the shopping centre, both before and definitely after coffee, I had the sensation of not quite being in my body, not fully immersed. Hard to describe. A feeling of lightness and calm, and less thought-traffic in my head. No meaning attach to it, simply observed the sensation. Lasted a little while until I went to get my kids from school.
Nat xx

[natlouise]

Had a lot of emotions earlier with the accompanying thought that they were upsetting. Playing with my son, bouncing on the bed before his bedtime, had thoughts + emotions = "aching sense of loss". So much time has been spent thinking I was investing in him, building for the "future". The thoughts that were present to describe the experience are "empty", "numb", "lonely/alone", "panicked sense of losing control". I don't have control, never have, yet the thought prevails that I must be in control of something! I will practise questioning this thought.

[Metta777]

Hello NL,

Thoughts try to make meaning out of it all, looking for shapes and patterns we're conditioned to believe are necessary; whether something - a decision, an event/experience happening around us, a thought - is good or bad, right or wrong. Past experiences of cause and effect (this consequence happened because that happened first) suggest a pattern for the future, even though the future doesn't exist.

Yes, exactly, it is just a thought, judging the quality or morality of the thought is something that comes after and is just conditioning. The future is just a projection of thoughts based on past experience isn't it?

Thoughts are the script, behaviour/experiences are the set, people are the actors, and emotions/feelings give texture to the performance. So who is the audience? Who is watching this fine production? I sense the answer is no one.

Who or what is aware?

I had the sensation of not quite being in my body, not fully immersed. Hard to describe. A feeling of lightness and calm, and less thought-traffic in my head. No meaning attach to it, simply observed the sensation. Lasted a little while until I went to get my kids from school.

Who had the sensation? Or was the sensation just there? Awareness was there, sensation was there.

Had a lot of emotions earlier with the accompanying thought that they were upsetting. Playing with my son, bouncing on the bed before his bedtime, had thoughts + emotions = "aching sense of loss". So much time has been spent thinking I was investing in him, building for the "future". The thoughts that were present to describe the experience are "empty", "numb", "lonely/alone", "panicked sense of losing control". I don't have control, never have, yet the thought prevails that I must be in control of something! I will practise questioning this thought.

Stay with the emotions as much as possible, ask, what is being lost? Who is there to be lonely, alone? The feeling, the emotion of love was there, awareness was there. Is there an I in awareness ?

Take a nice slow walk, feel your body, your feet touching the ground or pavement. The breath in your nostrils, the lungs expanding. Notice the birds, if there are any, are they chirping? Can awareness be noticed anywhere without an I?
Regards, Metta

[natlouise]

Stay with the emotions as much as possible, ask, what is being lost? Who is there to be lonely, alone? The feeling, the emotion of love was there, awareness was there. Is there an I in awareness ?

Metta,

"I" can now say that nothing was being lost, because nothing is owned or has ownership of something else, and that nobody was lonely/alone, because these are just thoughts based on the illusion of everything having a separate "self". Awareness happened - there was nothing in the mind or body making it happen, it just appeared.

Take a nice slow walk, feel your body, your feet touching the ground or pavement. The breath in your nostrils, the lungs expanding. Notice the birds, if there are any, are they chirping? Can awareness be noticed anywhere without an I?

Experienced the park. Walking happened, breathing happened, body sitting on a bench happened. Seeing, hearing, smelling and touching, all happened. Thoughts came and went, as did feelings also. Life happened all around, and I AM Life - inexplicably connected to all, but not through conceptual thinking.

You asked,

Is there an I in awareness ?

and,

Can awareness be noticed anywhere without an I?

To be honest, I'm not sure "I" understand what the questions mean. If I haven't already answered them, please rephrase them in a different way. Thank you.
Love, Nat xx

[Metta777]

Hi Nat,

To be honest, I'm not sure "I" understand what the questions mean. If I haven't already answered them, please rephrase them in a different way.

Until between 18 to 22 months of age there is no awareness of a self, there is awareness only, if there are children in the park sometimes this can be observed. Also, birds chirp, but are they aware of any self? Or do they just chirp, like we just have thoughts arise? We are the only beings who create a personality based on conditioning and direct experiences, out of illusion, but it is not always there.

An analogy: A man is walking under a full moon, he is carrying a full bucket of water, when he looks down he notices that there is an exact replica of the moon shining in his bucket. He then notices by the well more buckets with water in them. Curious, he looks and sees more replicas of the moon in the other buckets. He drops his bucket and suddenly the moon is gone, then he looks up. When the body ceases to function does awareness stop also? Or is there awareness in everything?

We are communicating on the computer. Looking at the words on the screen, where does the awareness of Metta begin and Nat end? Can it be pinpointed? Not the concept of Nat, not thoughts or ideas. Just awareness. Can that place be found?

Warm Regards, Metta

[natlouise]

Hi Metta,

Until between 18 to 22 months of age there is no awareness of a self, there is awareness only, if there are children in the park sometimes this can be observed.

Remembered a few days ago that years ago I had read in parenting books about this awareness in babies. That they are so connected with mommy/primary care giver, and perceive that mommy/etc and they are One, that when that person leaves the room the child "looks" to be "distraught" and this is labelled "separation anxiety". Actually typed a lot of this a few days ago but deleted it because I wasn't sure what point I was trying to make with it at the time.

Now it confirms what I know, what I've always "known" - there is awareness in everything, all creation, all Life: all is connected, all is One. A child with no sense of self just cries, a deep response to stimuli but no surface-level thought>meaning>conditioning cycle.

Thank you for rephrasing/giving analogies. You know, as I do now, that "aware", "awareness" are simply labels pointing at something that are not the labels themselves. I'm not used to the labels so was unclear what they were pointing to.

We are communicating on the computer. Looking at the words on the screen, where does the awareness of Metta begin and Nat end? Can it be pinpointed? Not the concept of Nat, not thoughts or ideas. Just awareness. Can that place be found?

There is no beginning or end; you are me and I am you, we are One. Seeing really clearly past the concept of Nat. Awareness has always been there - not lost or found. Now seeing past the distractions. No need to seek anymore, no need to "do" anything anymore.

Thank you, my love, thank you!

[Metta777]

Hi Nat,

Are you ready for the final questions? First one is, was there ever a self or I anywhere ? Is there now a self? Have you looked and looked and cannot find this self? This is the first of the final questions. There is the experience of happiness, welcome! Warm Regards, Metta

[natlouise]

Hi Metta,

Yes, I am ready for the final questions.

There never was a self or I anywhere, although thoughts and ego suggested it was real. There is no self now. I have looked and looked and cannot find this self anywhere, because it never was.

Nat xx

[Metta777]

Hi Nat,

Okay, just answer them to the best of your ability. Take your time, there is no rush to complete.

Final Questions

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?


Love, Metta

[natlouise]

Dear Metta,

Have tried to answer as fully as possible, though there was some difficulty at times in finding expression!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There never was a self or I anywhere, although thoughts and ego suggested it was real. There is no self now. I have looked and looked and cannot find this self anywhere, because it never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion is the belief that our thoughts, feelings and emotions make up who we are, it's the identity that is formed from this belief that we operate under without challenging. The meaning and labels that we place on things, people, ideas in our heads. It starts at a young age by conditioning from those around us - we are taught not only the labels for objects and things experienced by the senses, but also labels for conceptual ideas, like "your" toy, "my" book. We are taught that objects and people can be owned/connected to us but separate in form, "this is MY mummy", "YOU are a lovely girl". Meaning is attached to the thoughts that come into our heads, the emotions and sensations we experience - that these are the ultimate expression of our Being - and are given the title "I". There is the awareness now that this is delusion. Our essence is not anything that can be seen, sensed, described or conceptualised: it cannot be done! Thoughts are just thoughts, feelings just feelings, sensations etc. - no meaning or identity attached.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There is the sensation of lightness, the labels of peace, joy, wonder. All pretense of trying to control what happens to this body, this mind; attaching meaning and significance to things, has dropped off. Already it seems that awareness, the seeing of no separate "self", has always been; struggling to remember what it was like before!

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There was a combination of factors experienced - read the first chapter of Eckhart Tolle's "A new earth" and dipped into "I AM THAT - talks with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj" and walked and sat and observed nature in the local park. Clarity, awareness came. Thoughts came - "this is real...I can see it...I know it to be true" - but the thoughts were merely pointing/describing the awareness, this that is indescribable.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

No, there's no deciding...controlling events, there's nothing that can be made to happen. There was once the delusion that "I" - the intellect and personality of "Natalie" - could control what happens to it, but how can something so limited have any sway with Life so large? Now, there is acceptance and trust and watching Life unfold.

6) Anything to add?

Heartfelt gratitude for this guidance <3 xx