Request for a guide

[N8Sense]

Hello,

I would be grateful if someone would be willing to guide me.

Thanks,

John

[nenad]

Hi John,

I can guide you.
What are your expectations from this process?
What happens reading this: "There is no personal I, there never was, nor will there ever be. There is just a thought saying there is."

Have you read our disclaimer? http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Greetings,
Nenad

[N8Sense]

Hi John,

I can guide you.
What are your expectations from this process?
What happens reading this: "There is no personal I, there never was, nor will there ever be. There is just a thought saying there is."

Have you read our disclaimer? http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Greetings,
Nenad

Hi Nenad. Thank you for your kind offer to guide me. I have read the disclaimer and instructions and am ready to begin the process.

My expectation is that I find the truth of my existence. I hope to experience life as it truly is, unfiltered and undiluted by this so-called self. I think that would be a very liberating and incredible experience.

When I read that there is no personal, never was, or ever will be, there is just a thought saying there is, my first reaction is that I agree. On an intellectual level I think I "get" that. But when I test that thought by asking "who am I", I enter into an internal dialogue that is circular, confusing and frustrating. It goes something like this: Who am I?
I am I.
OK. Then who are YOU?
Who is asking?
I am.
That is just a thought, it isn't a "me".
Who thought the thought?
No one thought it - it just appeared.
You do realize, don't you, that that doesn't make sense. Thoughts don't just appear out of thin air. Maybe the "mind" created it.
OK - then maybe I am mind?
Where is mind? What is mind?
A repository of memories and a generator of thoughts that somehow makes a convincing argument that "I" exist.
So you are just a collections of thoughts and memories?
I think so.
Then who is having this conversation?
Mind and I.
Who is "I"?

And so it goes, on and on. I can't find a solid entity that equates to a self, yet I have this lingering sense of something that is the thinker, or watcher or witness.

This morning I was walking and considering all of this - trying to dispel this sense of self. At times I seemed to be able to do it, and had these momentary glimpses of seeing without an I being there. The objects I looked at were so vibrant and clear and it felt like there was no border between me and the objects I was perceiving. But these experiences only lasted a second or two, and then the veil was put back in place and "I" was present again.

Am I on the right track?

Thank you again, Nenad, for volunteering to help me.

J

[nenad]

Hi John :)

I have read the disclaimer and instructions and am ready to begin the process.

Great! These are few ground rules:
Put aside everything you assume to be true, all teachings, life philosophies etc. and just answer the questions with atmost honesty from direct experience http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html
To do that it's best to put aside all spiritual literature while in this process.
It is also recommanded that you reply at least once every day.

When I read that there is no personal, never was, or ever will be, there is just a thought saying there is, my first reaction is that I agree.

Good.

But when I test that thought by asking "who am I", I enter into an internal dialogue that is circular, confusing and frustrating.

No need to ask "Who am I?" because there is no who.
Test it by asking: "Is there a personal 'I' ? "

Maybe the "mind" created it.
OK - then maybe I am mind?

"Maybe" is a speculation, assumption. Put those aside :)
To answer questions just look in direct experience.

Thoughts don't just appear out of thin air.

Look into this: Where does thought come from? A thought can be observed, but can you observe it coming from anywhere?

This morning I was walking and considering all of this - trying to dispel this sense of self.

No need to dispel it - look into it: What is this sense of self? Is it personal? Does it have any size, shape or form?

N

[N8Sense]

Put aside everything you assume to be true, all teachings, life philosophies etc. and just answer the questions with atmost honesty from direct experienceTo do that it's best to put aside all spiritual literature while in this process.
It is also recommanded that you reply at least once every day..

I will do this to the best of my ability.

No need to ask "Who am I?" because there is no who.
Test it by asking: "Is there a personal 'I' ? "

OK - I've taken an initial run at this question, so far I haven't found a personal 'I', but I'll keep digging.

"Maybe" is a speculation, assumption. Put those aside :)
To answer questions just look in direct experience.

Got it. I think :)

Look into this: Where does thought come from? A thought can be observed, but can you observe it coming from anywhere?

This one is really giving me trouble. When I "look" at a thought and try to see where it comes from, I get a strong sense that it comes from me. For example, the thought arose, "at the count of three, this hand will close". One, two, three - the hand closed. This experience seems to point to me deciding to do something at a certain time and then somehow making it happen as I intended. I can't see a way around this. It certainly feels as if an 'I' planned and directed this experience. 'I' had an idea/thought - count to three and close this hand. 'I' counted to three. The hand closed, and it felt as if 'I' was responsible for making it happen somehow. Where the thoughts came from physically or otherwise, I could not determine - they were just there and I experienced them. I feel like I'm missing something obvious, so I'll keep looking to see if I can run this to ground.

No need to dispel it - look into it: What is this sense of self? Is it personal? Does it have any size, shape or form?

So far I have observed that this "self" is a feeling of something known and familiar, and yes - very personal. When I search intently for it's location, source I feel a tightness in the chest and solar plexus regions and also in the head behind the eyes. There is also a hearing component (but an imagined voice - I don't hear it audibly) that 'tells me' it it there. It isn't a physical entity that I can touch, it's more like a package of feelings or emotions. As for it's size, it seems to be confined to the torso inside this body. I haven't been able to detect any shape to it. I'm not doing a very good job of explaining it - I just don't have the words yet. Sorry to be so vague.

Shall I continue along these lines?

Thanks for your patience,

J

[nenad]

Hi!

I will do this to the best of my ability.

Good.

OK - I've taken an initial run at this question, so far I haven't found a personal 'I', but I'll keep digging.

If there is no personal 'I' right now, can there be one at all?
When you put aside all that thought claims to be true and take a look, is there anything except now?
When are past and and future experienced?

When I "look" at a thought and try to see where it comes from, I get a strong sense that it comes from me.

Yes, there can be this strong sense that thought comes from 'me'. Just because this sense is strong does it mean that thought comes from 'me'?

This experience seems to point to me deciding to do something at a certain time and then somehow making it happen as I intended.

Yes, it seems like that, indeed. But look:
Close the hand. Now open it. Look at hand while it happens.
Do you see hand closing and opening and someone closing and opening it?
Or do you just see hand closing and opening?

The hand closed, and it felt as if 'I' was responsible for making it happen somehow.

Yes, it can feel like that. When you dream that lion is chasing you, it feels like you are in danger. So what? :)

As for it's size, it seems to be confined to the torso inside this body.

Yes, it can seem to be so. But look:
How is 'inside the body' experienced?

Shall I continue along these lines?

Yes, just keep looking, disregard what thought claims to be true. :)

Greetings N

[nenad]

Just to inform you - I'll be out of city couple of days. It might happen that I don't have internet connection. It's not likely to happen, but just in case: if you don't hear from me tomorrow or these few days it is because of that.

N

[N8Sense]

Hi Nenad,

Thanks for letting me know about your travels. I am also going to be out of pocket the next few days and will likely not be able to communicate much for a couple of days. I will continue the work and report back to you as I can. Off to a meeting now - more later.

Let me close by saying that last night I had the thought: "Wow. Can it really be this simple?" I was under the impression that when I finally realized that there is no me, no 'I', no self, angels would appear in a bright cloud of light with trumpets and fanfare, etc. But the more I dig, the more I see clearly that there is no 'I'.

"Move along folks, nothing to see here. Nothing at all."

I think I am very, very close. I'm open to the possibility that I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

[nenad]

Awesome. Yes, it is very simple. Looking forward to your further reply.

[N8Sense]

Hi N,


Just a quick check-in on what I've been up to with all of this looking. I really do believe I'm (finally) getting it and seeing through the lie of the self.

If there is no personal 'I' right now, can there be one at all?

No - not at all. There is always and only, 'right now'.

When you put aside all that thought claims to be true and take a look, is there anything except now?

Nope. Just the things being sensed in the present moment, including actual, in-the-moment sensing experiences and thoughts about the future and memories of the past.

When are past and and future experienced?

Past events were experienced at the time they occured, memories and feelings about those past experiences may be experienced in the present moment, but they are only thoughts. Future events are not experienced, only thoughts about them are, but they have no " substance" - they are only thoughts and feelings.

When I "look" at a thought and try to see where it comes from, I get a strong sense that it comes from me.

Yes, there can be this strong sense that thought comes from 'me'. Just because this sense is strong does it mean that thought comes from 'me'?

No - it's only a thought or idea accompanied by a feeling.

Close the hand. Now open it. Look at hand while it happens.
Do you see hand closing and opening and someone closing and opening it?
Or do you just see hand closing and opening?

I only see the hand closing and opening. I "felt" as if someone was causing it, but when I really looked, I found that this was only thoughts and feelings about a "do-er".

How is 'inside the body' experienced?

At times I can feel what I've labeled as my heart pumping inside the body, or what I've labeled as my stomach as being full or empty - but everything else is just thoughts and imaginings about what it would be like to be "inside" - there is no direct experience of it.

No angels, or trumpets or lightning flashes or what have you, but I think I get this now. Or at least I'm very, very close. Nothing really has changed in how I navigate in the world except the way I view experiences now. I can clearly see that experiences are perceived through the senses. Thoughts arise and present but they are recognised for what they are - just thoughts. No 'I' or 'me' attached or involved in any way.

If this is it, it really, really surprises me. Different than what I imagined, yet better. No drama, no fanfare. Just watching what arises, watching life happen via direct experience, and guarding against the 'I' thoughts and feelings. Chop wood. Carry water. No me.

What do you think?

[nenad]

Hi. Very nice observations : Yes, there is only now and there is no doer. Is there a thinker? Where does thought come from? When there is no doer, how is choice experienced? Yes you might seen this or be very close, only you know!

[N8Sense]

Hi again, N.

Is there a thinker?

I can't find one. It seems to me now that when a thought arises, awareness arises along with it. It is not as if the thought arises and awareness says, "oh, look a thought is here - let's see what it is." It is simultaneous. The thought and awareness appear to be single entity.

Where does thought come from?

I haven't been able to pinpoint a specific source. Thoughts seem to just appear. It does seem sometimes that thoughts appear in response to specific experiences. For example, if I notice a person who resemble someone else I know, a thought of that person might appear. Or if I hear a song that reminds me of another place or time in experience, I might have a thought about that - so some thoughts can be generated by memories of earlier experiences, but I can find no thinker who is sitting around generating thought.

When there is no doer, how is choice experienced?

It seems I don't really choose. Things get done and then a thought arises like, 'I decided to do X or Y'. 'I' make up stories about making choices, but when I look directly I don't see a decision maker actually making a decision before the fact, nor do I see a doer doing anything during the act.

Yes you might seen this or be very close, only you know!

It sure does seem that way right now.

[nenad]

Hi :) Great! Very nice observations. Are you sure there is no thinker? You say that you make up stories about makinng a choice. If there is no thinker, then what is this you that makes up these stories?

[N8Sense]

"Isorry that was a bad choice of words on my part. it is more accurate to say that a thought arises I just made a choice. but when I look at that I recognize that is just a thought not me

[nenad]

Ok. no need for aplogies :) are you sure there is no thinker? Any doubts about this?