Thread for LOC600+++

[jowate]

Hi Loc (let me know how you want to be addressed!) - here's your thread.

First, please confirm you're ok with these basic conditions of doing the direct pointing here with me:

- Post once a day (at least) if at all possible. It’s fine if there are times you can’t do that, and there will probably be times I can’t respond on the same or next day.

- Be as clear and accurate (i.e. honest) as you can about your observations and responses.

- Respond from direct experience, rather than from conceptualising about what’s being asked.

- Leave aside other ‘spiritual’ or ‘dharma’ reading / viewing for the duration of this direct pointing. It’s ok to read other LU stuff, but even that could be a bit of a distraction. The main thing is keeping a strong focus on the investigations.

- If you want to use quotes from my posts in your replies, please use the quotes function on the forum (click on ‘post reply’ rather than ‘quick reply’, select text and click ‘quote’ on the line above the post – you can also use that for bold, italics, even colours!)

I'll assume you're ok with that - but please just confirm that.

First question: what are your views, feelings, expectations around liberation from / awakening out of / seeing through the self-view? What do you suppose will be the experiential outcome of this seeing-through?

T.

[LOC600+++]

Hi Loc (let me know how you want to be addressed!)

Loc is fine. Stands for Level of Consciousness. 600 refers to a mathematical scale of consciousness devised my current main teacher Dr.David Hawkins.

what are your
views
feelings
expectations
around liberation from / awakening out of / seeing through the self-view?

Views - to see - through the self-view is to remove a pivotal foundational stone upon which I create a lot of unnecessary suffering for myself.
Feelings - I feel confident that I can do this.
Expectations - Until I spoke to SP a week ago before he went on retreat I was expecting a bliss state to arise. He reported his experience and that of others as being otherwise.
Also having absorbed myself in the LU material and going through the process myself for the last 4 days my expectations have been tempered. I do not expect bliss - at least not in the immediate future. It would be nice some day though!

What do you suppose will be the experiential outcome of this seeing-through?

There has been some experiential progress already over the last 4 days - at least it seems like that.

Experientially my best description is that of an 'absence' or a ceasing of a subtle but previously pervasive inner tension located around/below my solar plexus. More positively this could be described as a relaxation.

This 'absence' feels very sweet and pleasant.

Shifts noticed in the last few days -

Striving to improve and get somewhere - my whole motivation to practice has changed. How can I improve something that doesn't exist? How can 'I' get somewhere when 'I' don't exist. The last 2 days I've had the most pleasant meditations I have had in years. I even found myself saying to Lisa that I am not sure why I am meditating now. I have never had this thought before

Related to the striving shift above. Traditional and contemporary spiritual material seems oddly irrelevant and complicated. I usually study something every day. (The conditions of our LU conversation not withstanding)
Why read such material which seems to be at least implicitly about 'improvement.'

There is definitely much less judging and suppression of 'my' thoughts.
One of my spiritual aims is to surrender the desire to think. Over the last couple of days I realize that subtle suppression and disapproval are mixed in my approach. I still get tangled up here - I an still judging myself when I notice them.
Just writing that made me realize that there is no 'myself' to be in judgment about.
Still I think I could do with some coaching/ guiding here.

There is a letting go of mental conundrums that I have mulled for years.
I have become aware of how much they occupy my mind E.g. the relationship between thoughts and movement, fear, role of will fullness , nature of motivation, nature of others etc etc - these seem all really irrelevant and a distraction from this lovely absence that I have discovered. I sense I may need some help here as well.

The above described experiences are not there all the time - only when I consciously do the search for self and find there is indeed nothing there which I can say is 'me' or 'self'.
I would like it to be there all the time - I would like some guidance on how to work with this. It feels like wanting is limiting something.

OK my brother. I think that that is as much as I can write now. It is getting late. I look forward to your reply.

Metta

Ratnabandhu

[jowate]

Hi Loc,

Ok, good. Now a few observations. You’re on the right track not to expect bliss! Life’s ups and downs will continue, and appearances of ‘selfing’ will also continue. The latter should increasingly tend to be mitigated, along with the stress/suffering/unsatisfactoriness from which they are inextricable. The absence of tension you describe is one probable outcome … after a while, you’ll probably stop noticing that certain old tensions have disappeared.

One of my spiritual aims is to surrender the desire to think. Over the last couple of days I realize that subtle suppression and disapproval are mixed in my approach. I still get tangled up here - I an still judging myself when I notice them.
Just writing that made me realize that there is no 'myself' to be in judgment about.
Still I think I could do with some coaching/ guiding here.

It’s a red herring to look at it in terms of not thinking. Thinking should become less of an ‘issue’, as should suppression and disapproval and all that stuff.

There is a letting go of mental conundrums that I have mulled for years.
I have become aware of how much they occupy my mind E.g. the relationship between thoughts and movement, fear, role of will fullness , nature of motivation, nature of others etc etc - these seem all really irrelevant and a distraction from this lovely absence that I have discovered. I sense I may need some help here as well

‘Lovely absence’ – nice phrase! Issues like these will become clear, either as non-issues, or just seeing clearly from ‘knowing-seeing’ what the case actually is.

The above described experiences are not there all the time - only when I consciously do the search for self and find there is indeed nothing there which I can say is 'me' or 'self'.
I would like it to be there all the time - I would like some guidance on how to work with this. It feels like wanting is limiting something.

This suggests something you could look at. You are saying that when you do look, no ‘self’ is to be found, and you’d like that to be the case all the time.

What would you say is the nature of the ‘self’ that you are looking for and not finding?

If no self can be found when ‘looking’ occurs, does that mean that a self is there when looking is not occurring?

T.x

[LOC600+++]

Hi Jowate,
Quick reply from me.
Thanks for your response. I will reply tomorrow.
Thanks so much.
Loc

[LOC600+++]

Hi Jowate,

Ok, good. Now a few observations. You’re on the right track not to expect bliss! Life’s ups and downs will continue, and appearances of ‘selfing’ will also continue. The latter should increasingly tend to be mitigated, along with the stress/suffering/unsatisfactoriness from which they are inextricable. The absence of tension you describe is one probable outcome … after a while, you’ll probably stop noticing that certain old tensions have disappeared.

- Fab. It is happening already and it feels completely remarkable.

It’s a red herring to look at it in terms of not thinking.

Thanks

Thinking should become less of an ‘issue’, as should suppression and disapproval and all that stuff.

This too is happening already and I am so grateful to all you guys for keeping these teaching alive and accessible to me.

Issues like these will become clear, either as non-issues, or just seeing clearly from ‘knowing-seeing’ what the case actually is.

Seems to be happening already.

You are saying that when you do look, no ‘self’ is to be found, and you’d like that to be the case all the time.

Investigated your questions in a focused way while meditating this morning.

What would you say is the nature of the ‘self’ that you are looking for and not finding?

The nature of the 'self' is that 'it' does not have a nature. It is not present or 'there' nor never was.

If no self can be found when ‘looking’ occurs, does that mean that a self is there when looking is not occurring?

No. There is no self there when looking is not occurring.

Mmm. Not sure what to write about what is happening now. Feels like my psyche/system in getting used to something. I am going of to plant some trees in the forest and enjoy my day.

I sense that I have let go the belief in a 'self' and the subsequent experiences ensuing from such a belief.

What is your sense?

Hugs

Ratnabandhu x

PS Hope you are having a great day to.

[jowate]

Hi Loc,

Thanks – had a good day yesterday!

It looks to me very much that you are ‘through’ – the fact that some of the things I pointed out as happening after seeing through the self-view are happening is telling!

I think the way to see whether this is certainly the case is for you to engage with the ‘final questions’ – these are helpful in evaluating, in direct experience, where ‘you’ stand in relation to ‘your-self’ :)

Rather than putting them in one go, let’s take them one by one and see whether any points or questions occur to either of us before going on to the next one:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

T.x

[LOC600+++]

Hi Jowate,

It looks to me very much that you are ‘through’ – the fact that some of the things I pointed out as happening after seeing through the self-view are happening is telling!

Yes, it looks like that to me as well.

Rather than putting them in one go, let’s take them one by one and see whether any points or questions occur to either of us before going on to the next one:

Thanks, I appreciate this one by one approach. I have been investigating the first question all day.

1) Is there a separate entity
'self'
'me'
'I'
at all
anywhere
in any way,shape or form?

Was there ever?

Is there a separate entity - no, there is no separate entity to be found, nor is there separation
'self' - no
'me' - no
'I' - no
at all anywhere - there is no sense of location to be 'anywhere'
in any way,shape or form? No

Was there ever? No

Mmm.

Thank you so much Tejananda. Thank you for holding these teachings and being a guide.

I am getting used to this. I slept very deeply last night and slept for ages this morning. I am sure this is part of assimilating this for me.

Metta

Ratnabandhu

[jowate]

Hi Loc,

That's great - ok here is the next one for your responses:

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

T.x

[LOC600+++]

Thanks.
I will reflect and write over the next day or two.
Hugs
Ratnabandhu x

[LOC600+++]

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The last couple of days I have become entangled with my thoughts and various conundrums and somehow lost the clarity I had about 'no self'.

Conundrums probably worth sharing, although I might be out of them now.

Seemed to come back to a sense of self as a thought - I would perceive a thought and sense this was 'me' - my questioning investigations would always seem to end up with 'I am this thought'. I am still a bit stuck here. Guidance would be appreciated.

When I have let go of the above I am finding it a little bit disconcerting / disorientating - ? where do I 'locate' myself? ' Even a mild panic arising?

I will answer the 2 nd question tomorrow morning. Work calls.

Thanks for everything.

RB x

[jowate]

Hi RB,

The last couple of days I have become entangled with my thoughts and various conundrums and somehow lost the clarity I had about 'no self'.

That’s already pointing to the reason for loss of clarity – thoughts chasing thoughts chasing thoughts.

Seemed to come back to a sense of self as a thought - I would perceive a thought and sense this was 'me' - my questioning investigations would always seem to end up with 'I am this thought'. I am still a bit stuck here

Can you ‘look’ at thoughts as ‘phenomena’, i.e. disregarding the content?
If you bring direct attention to the thought that’s happening now, what happens to the thought?
Where is the thought that is happening now?

When a thought ‘I am this thought’ arises, is the ‘I am’ anything other than the thought itself?
What (who) is perceiving this thought?
When a thought is ‘sensed’ as ‘me’, what is actually going on in direct experience?

When I have let go of the above I am finding it a little bit disconcerting / disorientating - ? where do I 'locate' myself? ' Even a mild panic arising?

The self-identified mental-emotional habit patterns that are maintaining the self-view moment by moment are definitely threatened by this direct seeing of no me at all. Nothing wrong (i.e. unusual) there!

How can a self that doesn’t exist be located anywhere?

Yet the six senses are arising just as ever – was there ever a centre or periphery in direct experience?

T.x

[LOC600+++]

Hi T,

That’s already pointing to the reason for loss of clarity – thoughts chasing thoughts chasing thoughts.

Yep! Thanks for the clarity.

Can you ‘look’ at thoughts as ‘phenomena’, i.e. disregarding the content?

That is a fabulous distinction and it works. Today I am much less hung up/stuck and getting emotionalized about content.

If you bring direct attention to the thought that’s happening now, what happens to the thought?

'It' disappears instantaneously on investigation.

Where is the thought that is happening now?

There is no 'location'. Location is a mental construct. This is a reality for me.

When a thought ‘I am this thought’ arises, is the ‘I am’ anything other than the thought itself?

The 'I am this thought' is 'just' a thought. It has no other meaning and doesn't 'point' to anything that could be considered to be 'me'.

What (who) is perceiving this thought?

There is no 'who' in terms of a 'separate' person' perceiving.
I am not sure how to word this - ? there is perceiving 'happening'. An uneasiness arises here, perhaps it is my physiology / system getting used to not referencing a separate self 'doing' the perceiving. Any comments / guidance here?

When a thought is ‘sensed’ as ‘me’, what is actually going on in direct experience?

There is 'sensing'. Question - how does 'sensing happen? How does anything 'know' to sense. This is one of my mental conundrums I think. I feel thoughts chasing thoughts again! Dang!

The self-identified mental-emotional habit patterns that are maintaining the self-view moment by moment are definitely threatened by this direct seeing of no me at all. Nothing wrong (i.e. unusual) there!

OK.

How can a self that doesn’t exist be located anywhere?

True.

Yet the six senses are arising just as ever – was there ever a centre or periphery in direct experience?

No. This a strangely liberating experience, perhaps the uneasiness mentioned above isn't uneasiness but more exhilaration.

Hope to get around to answering the second question in the next day.

I am off on holidays tomorrow until next Thursday and will be out of e-mail contact.

Again thank you so much.

Hugs

Ratnabandhu x

[jowate]

Hi Rb,

Good reading all that.

What (who) is perceiving this thought?

There is no 'who' in terms of a 'separate' person' perceiving.
I am not sure how to word this - ? there is perceiving 'happening'. An uneasiness arises here, perhaps it is my physiology / system getting used to not referencing a separate self 'doing' the perceiving. Any comments / guidance here?

Yet the six senses are arising just as ever – was there ever a centre or periphery in direct experience?

No. This a strangely liberating experience, perhaps the uneasiness mentioned above isn't uneasiness but more exhilaration.

Maybe. As I said, uneasiness is to be expected (at the very least). Can be like vertigo, or queasiness. Everything is in fact as it always has been - what is breaking down is the mentally fabricated dividedness and what's appearing is the natural openness of the senses. It's ok, just a question of getting used to it, as you say.

T.x

[LOC600+++]

Hi T,

I am back from a fabulous few days in majestic Co. Kerry - think the Lake district Irish style.

I just wanted to send you a quick e-mail to resume our conversation.

(I actually wrote to you on Saturday just before I left but somehow the mail didn't send. Just to say that our conversation and our connection has been very much on my mind with deep appreciation and thanks.)

The 'process' as I am calling it has been my main waking focus.

I think I am definitely through - I don't consider that it is a possibility that there is a separate self/entity.

Sometimes there is a feeling of 'me' but then I bring my rational mind/ the LU questions to the phenomena this 'selfing' dissolves without being energized or becoming reified.

I currently have a practice of bringing the LU first final question - 'Is there a separate self....was there ever?' to all of my thought stream. Doing this seems to be having the effect of unhooking me from whole banks of 'story' and other conceptualizations e.g.the concept of time and of a 'me' having a past or a future.

I am witnessing this broader unhooking with interest and finding the process happening without any direct effort this is subjectively deeply satisfying.

Anyhow. I really write to say that I am still processing and very much on the case with all of this.

I have been sitting with the 2nd question and will write my answer in the next couple of days.

I have an important professional bit of writing to do which has a deadline of tomorrow midday.

I hope all is well with you brother.

Hugs

Ratnabandhu x

[jowate]

Great, Ratnabandhu! I'll look forward to the next installment on the 2nd question!

T.x