Requesting a guide

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truthseeker
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Requesting a guide

Postby truthseeker » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:20 pm

Hi. I am looking for someone who can help me to let go. I feel i know the right answers intellectually, but still have not been able to take the leap deep down. I started the spiritual pursuit about 25 years ago, and have been meandering since. I meditate on occasion. Sometimes i will do some acupuncture beforehand to let go more easily. Recently I have been listening to Jed McKenna. That led me to the Gateless Gatecrashers which I am about half way through. Absolutely fascinating. It really seems like there is a gift to help make the concept click.

To put the cart before the horse. Once there is no I, are you then on the outside looking in? Like watching a movie but instead of seeing, getting to experience everything? Just a thought I have been having today.

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truthseeker
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby truthseeker » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:51 pm

Kind of getting the impression of the I as being like the center of an onion. All the layers of fear surrounding it, and protecting it. Once they are cut through, there is in fact nothing.

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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Sarah7 » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:15 am

Hi Truthseeker

Im Sarah. What do you want me to call you? I will be am happy to guide you. Can you please confirm you have read the link below.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Sarah x
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Sarah7 » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:40 am

In particular, these points are very important. There are a few ground rules, please respond to confirm:

1. You agree to post at least once a day. What's needed is focus and intensity.
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to.
3. Responses require your utmost honesty. Be 100% honest. It is very easy to deceive oneself, especially when it comes to something as subtle as the intimacy of your direct experience. Strive to be completely honest and transparent as to what is actually happening in your experience, this will make the process as smooth as possible.
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Write from direct experience, not speculation. It is impossible to understate the importance of this; in order for any Direct Pointing session to be successful, it is your responsibility to examine your experience as it is, instead of resorting to speculation and theory-forming. The only way to get to the Gate and beyond is by directly looking at your actual experience of reality.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

OK. Shall we begin?
Once there is no I, are you then on the outside looking in?
Who would be on the outside looking in?

Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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truthseeker
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby truthseeker » Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:24 pm

Hi Sarah,



Thank you or your response. I have read and agree to all of the rules. One question, while I am in this process, should i also refrain from reading other people's experiences on LU, and the Gateless Gatecrashers?

You may call me Chris.
Who would be on the outside looking in?
I like that question. I don't know. I feel like there is the experiencer or observer. Prior to starting this I was thinking the doer. It is strange, the entire concept of free will is strongly challenged for me. Reading other people's awakenings, it seems to be a common thread while having the illusions destroyed, even my thoughts are not my own, then what is my free will? deeper still, there is no mine.

I am sure part of it I am still not getting. The funny thing is with all of the questions I have swirling in my head, all of my fundamental beliefs being challenged and shaky, reading Gateless last night, once crossing over everything is basically the same but different. Kind of reminds me of Yeager's test flight where he broke the sound barrier for the first time. While approaching the barrier the plane was shaking and breaking apart, as soon as he crossed everything smoothed out (i know it's not all smooth sailing after).

I still haven't answered. The only thing that could be looking. The only observer that could be. Awareness, or consciousness.

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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby truthseeker » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:07 pm

As I peel back the layers it is true that nothing changes if I see the truth. If I was or wasn't running the show and controlling the stage. The only difference is the dropping of pretense. The acknowledgement of the reality that is. The shedding of illusion. Now just to make ( or allow ) it to happen.

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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Sarah7 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:55 am

Hi Chris
One question, while I am in this process, should i also refrain from reading other people's experiences on LU, and the Gateless Gatecrashers?
Yes please. What you need to do is look for yourself, without expectation or comparison etc. This works a lot more easily when you dont/expect think something else should be happening. Good excuse to read all those novels you have stacked up?
I am looking for someone who can help me to let go.
Let go of what?
Once there is no I, are you then on the outside looking in? Like watching a movie but instead of seeing, getting to experience everything?
Kind of getting the impression of the I as being like the center of an onion. All the layers of fear surrounding it, and protecting it. Once they are cut through, there is in fact nothing.
once crossing over everything is basically the same but different.
Are these your expectation of this process then? Or are there more? Please look carefully.
I feel like there is the experiencer or observer.

Experiencer, observer or both?
there is no mine.
Explain please. I may well ask you to clarify things, as language can be a tricky thing, please feel free to do the same to me. OK.
As I peel back the layers
Explain please. Layers of what?
Now just to make ( or allow ) it to happen.


This implies ‘you’ do it. We will look at free will and control later in detail, but you can answer this now.

Right now, what does ‘I’ point to? What is this ‘me’? What does ‘I’, ‘me’ refer to?

What comes up when it is read that there absolutely no "you" in any way, shape or form, there never has been, nor is there, nor will there ever be?

Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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truthseeker
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby truthseeker » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:43 pm

Hi Sarah,

Back to novels, guilt free :-).
Let go of what?
Letting go of the fear. Letting go of whatever it is I am grasping on to. Letting go of me. Or letting me go.
Are these your expectation of this process then? Or are there more? Please look carefully.
That is a very tough question. I came into this seeing it as a light at the end of a long tunnel that I have been trying to find my way through. I have been doing various processes for years without thinking so much what I was headed towards, but what I was trying to get away from. Feeling that I am somehow missing a very important part of existence. The same things that drive some to religion have set me on this journey.

Now that I am being challenged for expectations (without trying to use other people's experiences).Probably what I always fall back onto is the taoist watercourse way. Being able to flow more harmoniously with that which is. To be aware of my being as a part of the whole via the recognition that I am not separate.
Experiencer, observer or both?
I feel both. Strange giving up the doer.
truthseeker wrote:
there is no mine.


Explain please. I may well ask you to clarify things, as language can be a tricky thing, please feel free to do the same to me. OK.
There has always been a label of possession that has been thrown on everything internally created. I though, I felt, I believe... The label of attachment that in our culture has been given more weight than ever with ever increasing possessiveness of material and intellectual 'property'. The context i made the statement in was questioning whether is control the will and actions, or more if i am observing a character playing a role, or who is pulling the strings. Obviously thoughts and actions are largely biological, that is obvious with head injury and drugs. Still a very difficult concept to fully accept and even harder to describe the footing while standing on shaky ground.
Explain please. Layers of what?
The layers of protection, the layers of fear. layers of doubt. Layers of resistance. Each block i throw in the way is a layer once it is past.
Right now, what does ‘I’ point to? What is this ‘me’? What does ‘I’, ‘me’ refer to?
I don't know what I points to. This is the really hard part. I don't know if there are words to it. It has to be the collection of experiences and actions that make me who I am. But I know that it is really the consciousness that is witnessing it. I and me refer to grasping. to holding on and clutching close. to a contractive force that is protecting the illusion.
What comes up when it is read that there absolutely no "you" in any way, shape or form, there never has been, nor is there, nor will there ever be?
Initially doubt. It is like waking up and finding out the sky has been green all along. There is also a deeper feeling of belief, and wanting to accept it at the deepest level. To fall back and take that leap of faith and allow it to happen. It is the eternal. That which always have and always will be. Alan Watts has an analogy that is really nice. He says we are like waves in an ocean. Each thinking we are individual and separate, while being just momentarily illusions of separateness.

Thank you for your time and patience,
Chris

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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby truthseeker » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:09 am

Another possible expectation is a stronger connection to that which is and the greater reality or to use the metaphor again of the ocean, and not stuck in my self imposed confines of reality being me, and myself.

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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Sarah7 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:28 am

Hi Chris

Forgot to ask you where in the world you are. Just a country will do. I am in England. Just wanted to check on the timelines for us speaking to each other.

In answer to what is ‘I’. Can I clarify: ‘I’ for you is a collection of experiences and actions. Ownership labels. The observer.
Please correct me if I have any of that wrong and add anything else you or I missed off.
to a contractive force that is protecting the illusion.
Please explain?
Letting go of the fear.
Is it your expectation that this process is going to lead to no more fear?
without thinking so much what I was headed towards, but what I was trying to get away from.
What are you trying to get away from? What if I said to you - you are what you are looking for right now.
Feeling that I am somehow missing a very important part of existence.
Look at this sentence – you said the ‘feeling’ that I. What is telling you you are missing something?
taoist watercourse way. Being able to flow more harmoniously with that which is. To be aware of my being as a part of the whole via the recognition that I am not separate.
Is it actually possible to ‘be’ separate? Notice I did not say ‘feel’. Do not think this answer or analyse – allow yourself to sit with it.
Experiencer and observer - I feel both.
Ok. I would like you to explain both in detail for me. How do you experience each. Do something and notice carefully what happens.
Strange giving up the doer.
Who has asked you to give up anything. You are going to be asked to look that is all.
The context i made the statement in was questioning whether is control the will and actions, or more if i am observing a character playing a role, or who is pulling the strings.
Is this what you experience or what you have read or understand intellectually? Do you experience controlling will and actions – really? Try that out. Do something and notice what happens. Make a cup of tea. Pay attention like a cat watching a mouse hole. What really happens?
Is there a separate you watching the fake you? If so where is this ‘real’ you?
The layers of protection, the layers of fear. layers of doubt. Layers of resistance.
What is protecting what? What is fearing? What is doubting? What is resisting?
There is also a deeper feeling of belief
What is belief? I don’t want a list of beliefs – I mean what is a belief really?
Love Sarah and your welcome xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Sarah7 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:31 am

Chris I have given you quite a lot to do here. I dont know how much time you have. So if you need to split it up. Just let me know.
S xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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truthseeker
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby truthseeker » Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:24 pm

HI Sarah,

I appreciate the homework. I am in the US (GMT-4). (the easy questions). I will try to answer what I can now, and I will ponder the others or later.

I think you have nailed my definition of I except I forgot to add feelings and emotions into it.

The contractive force would be that which pulls into me. The drive that is pulling away from the expansive encompassing being with the larger reality beyond my skin bones and mind. The habitual tendencies to limit my experience of reality, and maintaining the feeling of separateness.
Is it your expectation that this process is going to lead to no more fear?
In terms of fear, I don't expect the process to eliminate fear. I do know that previous attempts to break through the self imposed boundaries my ego has set up generally run into discomfort doubt and fear. I do expect a greater level of acceptance which could lead to less milling the multitude of possibilities in my head which generally will end in worry and fear. It is like the fear is running straight into the wall of resistance. The doubt is questioning the path (which will prevent me from even getting to the wall), and the resistance is myself throwing the obstacles in the way of what ultimately is my goal of liberation.
What are you trying to get away from? What if I said to you - you are what you are looking for right now.
I would agree completely with you. With the exception that I am not being what I am looking for right now. It is like I am standing in the same shoes right next to him but at the same time walling him off.
Is this what you experience or what you have read or understand intellectually? Do you experience controlling will and actions – really? Try that out. Do something and notice what happens. Make a cup of tea. Pay attention like a cat watching a mouse hole. What really happens?
Is there a separate you watching the fake you? If so where is this ‘real’ you?
Intellectually and experientally I always thought I was the one controlling. Since starting this pursuit I have begun to challenge that assumption, so my thoughts and feeling on this are still in the process of maturing. Most of the time I thing thought and actions are more automatic without intervention of the higher self. Impulsive, biological. Upon further evaluation, there are times when the higher self can reign in the I. Like when impulses are checked, or actions are second guessed.

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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby truthseeker » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:27 pm

In terms of giving something up, there is something I feel I would be giving up which is the illusion. The one that prevents me from seeing reality or what it is. This is certainly something I would like to let go of. The attachments to ego, I, and the belief in I.
What is belief? I don’t want a list of beliefs – I mean what is a belief really?
A belief id something that I hold true. Something that is incontrovertible. The truth of it is either found through repeated experience, or being told by an authority. A belief is also something that I tend to hold on to. They define my reality because they set up the rules under which i construct my reality.

Thank you,
Chris

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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:20 am

Hi Chris
Sarah7 wrote: Is this what you experience or what you have read or understand intellectually? Do you experience controlling will and actions – really? Try that out. Do something and notice what happens. Make a cup of tea. Pay attention like a cat watching a mouse hole. What really happens?
Is there a separate you watching the fake you? If so where is this ‘real’ you?
Have you ever driven and suddenly realised ‘you’ had drifted off? Did the car crash or did your body drive perfectly well without ‘you’?

I don’t want you to talk about this experiment, don’t analyse, just do and look. Pay attention to sensations, to mind talking and interpreting and anything else you notice.

I want you to make a cup of tea/coffee. Are ‘you’ making your body move or does it do it on its own? Can you really make your arm rise up, fill a kettle etc. Or does your body know what to do without you. Is there just movement? Can you hear mind say ‘look what I did, I did this…..’ Do ‘you’ decide to have a drink or does that decision just ‘pop’ into your head. Where does that thought come from? Is there a sensation that you interpret as ‘I need a drink’?
there are times when the higher self can reign in the I. Like when impulses are checked, or actions are second guessed.
Are you sure this is what happens? Look. Or is it just mind telling you it checked your impulses? Is it mind just spinning stories and talking? Look again at what I is - the list!

In terms of beliefs - is a belief an opinion? a thought?
Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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truthseeker
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby truthseeker » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:17 am

Hello Sarah,
I want you to make a cup of tea/coffee. Are ‘you’ making your body move or does it do it on its own? Can you really make your arm rise up, fill a kettle etc. Or does your body know what to do without you. Is there just movement? Can you hear mind say ‘look what I did, I did this…..’ Do ‘you’ decide to have a drink or does that decision just ‘pop’ into your head. Where does that thought come from? Is there a sensation that you interpret as ‘I need a drink’?
In these cases or in the case of driving my car, you are absolutely right. These are activities that I do with regularity that are almost completely automatic. No decisions involved. My body does it on autopilot. Having a drink - I did it a bunch of times today. Either a response to feeling a little dryness in my throat, or just the thought - grab a drink popped 'out of nowhere' into my head. The out of nowhere could be habit, like having the water or tea there in case i get thirsty, i see the glass, i drink. No real thought in any of these processes.
is it just mind telling you it checked your impulses? Is it mind just spinning stories and talking? Look again at what I is - the list!
Thank you. I looked again at the list. The impulse control may not differ in any way from any other biological being that has learned a lesson. The first impulse when we see something we want is to chase it, but if there is an obstacle or consequence in the way, nearly any creature would put the brakes on the pursuit. It doesn't have to be a higher self.
In terms of beliefs - is a belief an opinion? a thought?
These words seem to exist together on a continuum. A thought would be a singular instance, and thoughts come and go. If the thought continues to reaffirm it builds into an opinion which is less malleable but can be changed with some effort. If the opinion is repeatedly or strongly confirmed it solidifies into a belief which generally is much more resistant to change as it is held as truth. So the short answer is belief encompasses opinion, which in itself is built from thoughts.


A thought popped up (perhaps via some of the assistance you have been giving :-) . going back to an older question. Why am I doing this? To experience life, and to give up me trying to control it (and the illusion that I could).

Thank you,
Chris

PS - if you have any suggestions on how I could improve my expressing, or communicating. Please let me know. Anything that can be done to help you to help me would be my pleasure.


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