Would someone be willing to guide me please?

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Matt13
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Would someone be willing to guide me please?

Postby Matt13 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:12 pm

Hi all,

Is there a guide out there willing to lead me through the process please? I've been listening to the audio and reading through the forum and I'm intrigued by the whole idea. I have some background in zen and meditation as well as some of Douglas Harding's work but I've not come across direct pointing before. I love the down to earth nature and directness of it and I'm prepared to put in the effort.

Kind regards

Matt

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kvotski
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Re: Would someone be willing to guide me please?

Postby kvotski » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:51 am

Hello Matt,

My name is Sunil. I would be happy to guide you if you are ready.
Please read the rules on this site and confirm that you are willing to post at least once a day.
That you will set aside other methods or processes while we do this.
We will do this in a q and a format, not big discussions or philosophies.
You will answer from direct experience.

Please let me know if these are acceptable to you and let us begin.

Best wishes.

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Matt13
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Re: Would someone be willing to guide me please?

Postby Matt13 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:56 pm

Hello Sunil,

Thank you, I appreciate the effort you're putting in on my behalf. I've read through the rules and I'm happy to keep posting on a daily basis. I'm not sure how long the process lasts but I do have a week away with unknown wifi connectivity towards the end of May, but I'll be up front if I have any logistical issues.

Warm regards

Matt

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kvotski
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Re: Would someone be willing to guide me please?

Postby kvotski » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:23 pm

Hello Matt:

No problem with timing. I am off on vipassana end of May as well, so we either finish this by then or take it after our breaks. Sometimes a little hiatus is also good.

So let's begin by first describing what did you feel when you read some of the direct pointing texts, conversations and the book "gateless gatecrashers"? What stirs within you when you hear us saying there is no I, me or self?

Describe all that comes up in detail but only direct experience of feelings,, thoughts, sensations, not ideas or concepts.

Wishing you success.

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Matt13
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Re: Would someone be willing to guide me please?

Postby Matt13 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:25 pm

Hi Sunil,

When I hear you saying that there is no I, I try to see it, or feel it somehow. I look 'back' inside my own head, my body and try to see that the I is just more thoughts. I can see my arms typing and I can tell that 'I' am not them - they seem to be 'out there'. I can feel them but I am not IN them. I can watch a bird flying outside the window, the trees swaying in the wind and see clearly, accept clearly that there is stuff just happening, and I try to see that it is not 'my' experience but just an experience happening.

When I contemplate this in an unpressured environment I can feel very quiet and still, and I can see things happening and thoughts coming and going, and it feels very pleasant. I feel like I can almost imagine myself into a place where I feel that 'I' am not directing or experiencing things, but I can't truly see that it is true, that there really is no 'I' here writing this.

As I write these words I grow more quiet, but as I finish and start to think about posting I feel that I, Matt have written something that I own and that I am about to post.

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kvotski
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Re: Would someone be willing to guide me please?

Postby kvotski » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:47 pm

I look 'back' inside my own head, my body and try to see that the I is just more thoughts. I can see my arms typing and I can tell that 'I' am not them - they seem to be 'out there'. I can feel them but I am not IN them.

I can watch a bird flying outside the window, the trees swaying in the wind and see clearly, accept clearly that there is stuff just happening, and I try to see that it is not 'my' experience but just an experience happening.

I feel that I, Matt have written something that I own and that I am about to post.
Really good looking, Matt. Lots of i's.

Let's get them one at a time.

What makes that body and arm yours?
Are you watching the bird or a set of eyes reporting somewhere in a cortex that a shape is moving which a thought labels quickly as bird and the watcher your eyes?
What part of this note does Matt own, the screen, the signals, the light making them words?
Or just the ideas are owned by Matt?
Can you own the words, ideas?
Why are all of these things yours?
What makes them yours?

Give me answers to each, Matt.

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Matt13
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Re: Would someone be willing to guide me please?

Postby Matt13 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:07 am

Hi Sunil,

Here are my answers:

What makes that body and arm yours?

Just a thought. It feels as if I identify with the bits I can feel sensations from as mine. If I just look at my hands, at my legs as I sit here, there is no solid reason why they should be labelled as mine, any more than the desk or the computer. It's just a strong, automatic thought that some things are mine and some aren't.

Are you watching the bird or a set of eyes reporting somewhere in a cortex that a shape is moving which a thought labels quickly as bird and the watcher your eyes?

The shape definitely comes first. As I look out of the window now I have just seen a far off speck in the sky. I have to look at it for a moment to identify if it is a bird or a plane, or even a spot on the window. So, it's a shape first, then a speculation on which label it may be, and then finally a particular label once I recognise the pattern. Let me change that to once the pattern is recognised, because I didn't recognise the pattern, the process was automatic. So, in answer to your question, it's the latter, there is a shape moving and an automatic identification. I can definitely see that, but I have to think about it.

What part of this note does Matt own, the screen, the signals, the light making them words?
Or just the ideas are owned by Matt?
Can you own the words, ideas?
Why are all of these things yours?
What makes them yours?

When I look at what is happening then the screen, the signals, the light are just things and to own them is just to have a thought that I own them, it's not the reality, it's a made up and generally accepted concept.
The ideas are a little more blurred in terms of ownership. They are thoughts. They were thought by something, maybe, but I can't see what. SOmetimes when I am caught up in the thoughts then they feel like me and that I 'own' them. Sometimes I see them, watch them, and then they don't feel like me or owned by me, they feel like something just appearing.

Nothing makes them mine until the thought crops up that they are mine. Until then things just are. It's like the example of seeing the bird earlier. It begins with a speck, is speculated on, then labelled a bird. Because it's a bird and my education says I don't own it that's where the trail stops. If for some reason I did have a belief I owned the bird then presumably a thought of ownership would appear. So, it looks as if reality happens and then thoughts paint labels and meaning on it, and then emotions and reactions act on those labels rather then on the reality.

But, the thought that something is mine isn't making sense right now. For things to be mine there must be a me. But does that mean my body owns these things, or the thoughts of ownership own these things, or the thinker owns these things? But, if I can see the thoughts happening then I am not the thinker.

Hmmm...it's quite late now Sunil and I'm not sure if I'm having useful thoughts or just rambling so I am going to post what I have :-)

Warm Regards

Matt

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kvotski
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Re: Would someone be willing to guide me please?

Postby kvotski » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:04 am

Yes, Matt. As you see, thoughts end up suggesting ownership through labeling of birds, body parts and even thinking itself. So now with these observations, let us look at the choices. Take two items, red pen, blue pen; tea or coffee, apple or orange. Which one do you pick? And why? Is there a decision maker or is there a cause and effect? Like something about the apple gets the mind to pick it? If you are not certain, try to force a decision, just when you have decided to pick the blue pen, change to red? What prompted that change? Was that a real person?

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Matt13
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Re: Would someone be willing to guide me please?

Postby Matt13 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:47 pm

Yes, Matt. As you see, thoughts end up suggesting ownership through labeling of birds, body parts and even thinking itself. So now with these observations, let us look at the choices. Take two items, red pen, blue pen; tea or coffee, apple or orange. Which one do you pick? And why? Is there a decision maker or is there a cause and effect? Like something about the apple gets the mind to pick it? If you are not certain, try to force a decision, just when you have decided to pick the blue pen, change to red? What prompted that change? Was that a real person?
I've been playing with this question today as I go about my normal daily business. In short, I can't find anything actually making a decision. There can be a lot of thinking around a decision, and it seems as if some decisions are prompted by events, so cause and effect is in play, but I can't pin down a moment of actual decision, or a person or decision maker making that decision. A thought appears that red pen or blue pen is the decision and is acted upon. Or, if I am playing with the idea of decision making I can deliberately choose one side, as you suggest, and then change it, but it seems random whether I then act on that. For example, I chose to drive to a friend's this evening. I had the choice to go home or drive to them. At some point it just seemed that I was going to drive there. I had thoughts of going home, thoughts of driving to my friend, but I don't see the point where I made a decision, there was just a point where the decision was made.

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kvotski
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Re: Would someone be willing to guide me please?

Postby kvotski » Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:34 pm

Great Matt,

Are you getting the feeling that may be there is no Santa? Like there is no Matt making anything happen? How does that make you feel?

To deepen this a bit more contemplate on the thinker of these thoughts you are gong through? Is there one? Where is it? What are his characteristics?

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Matt13
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Re: Would someone be willing to guide me please?

Postby Matt13 » Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:41 pm

Hi Sunil,

Yes, at times it seems as if thoughts are just happening, the body is just moving, the world is just moving on by. When that happens I feel a tingle all over and a feeling that maybe something is about to release, or burst. This usually fades as I get lost or carried away by thoughts again. I don't know if I am seeing something real or imagining things. Oddly enough today, when I am thinking about this most intensely, I have found it very difficult to look past the 'me' and the thoughts and dramas being played out in my head. I've also spent a lot of time sitting around trying to watch what is going on in my own head!

When I look inward, trying to find the thinker, is when I see my thoughts most clearly as things just appearing out of nowhere. When I see my thoughts like that I can't see a thinker, or anything behind the production of those thoughts, they just appear. But then I start to wonder about who is seeing those thoughts appearing. It's like something is aware and seeing but when I look for it there is nothing there. If feels like the looking is coming from right where I am, but trying to look where I am is fruitless. I see these things when I am attending to what is happening now. When my world shifts to whatever drama is currently playing out in my thoughts I have no awareness at all of what is happening, I'm lost to the drama.

This is frustrating. I can see some of these things by direct observation, but behind it all a big fat 'I' is sitting and grabbing ownership of the process every chance it gets.

Thanks for the continued dialogue Sunil.

Matt

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kvotski
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Re: Would someone be willing to guide me please?

Postby kvotski » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:10 pm

Dear Matt,

There are ideas, concepts and imaginations on the one hand and direct experience on the other. That big fat I sitting in the back ground, what is it? Is it just a thought with no verifiable attribute like the table in front of you? If I told you to imagine a big unicorn out of your windows, will you believe me? Will you go out and check or will you know that there is no such thing? Why is it that you don't believe yourself that there is no I? Just because a whole bunch of people some you love like your parents have told you that there is a Matt? Please do this final bit. Check and check until you are satisfied that I,you, me, self all are labels and an illusion, a ruse perpetrated by society on you. This is the cosmic joke, my friend. See it and come back.

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Matt13
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Re: Would someone be willing to guide me please?

Postby Matt13 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:59 pm

Hi Sunil,

I can't see the I when I look for it directly, but a sense of it remains. Been looking all day. I just wanted to post to say I'm still looking, trying to see. I will post again later or tomorrow. I need to keep looking. Sometimes I feel a pressure in my head like something is about to release, I don't know what that means.

On your unicorn question, I understand what you mean I think. Once a belief is seen through then is is dead forever. I feel as if I have seen the pieces of evidence showing that the self is just a belief, but something stops me from seeing those pieces as a whole picture, a picture clear enough to destroy the belief.

Will post again soon.

Matt

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kvotski
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Re: Would someone be willing to guide me please?

Postby kvotski » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:43 pm

Great.

What is a sense of I? Pin that one down. Is it like butterflies when you are making a presentation? Or is the fear of ghosts if you are walking through a dark forest? Are they not just imagination and not true?

Good hunting. Or may be you should declare victory and see if it relaxes you.

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Matt13
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Re: Would someone be willing to guide me please?

Postby Matt13 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:37 pm

Aargh! Still looking.

It's like trying to catch a bar of soap. Slippery critter this I.


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