In need of a guide

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Robwreck
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In need of a guide

Postby Robwreck » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:21 pm

Hello,

I'm in need of a guide. I've been reading through the Gateless Gate Crashers book and am about halfway through it. I've felt right on the edge of the light switch flipping but haven't gotten it yet. I know by now the response is that there is no "I" to get it but I don't know how else to describe it.

Reading the book has been both eye opening and frustrating. I've been actively following the book, meaning I've been taking the time to answer for myself the questions that the guides ask the person in each dialogue. I usually am right there with them until the person ultimately has THE response where they say they finally get it and I am left saying Hey wait a minute I didn't get it yet! Why didn't I get it?!

The last thing I wanted to mention because I wonder if it is relevant- I have an anxiety problem. It would be labeled social phobia or social anxiety. I mention it because I extremely live in my head and try to grab on to control everything in my life in order to minimize anxiety and to attempt to manipulate the way others see me or think about me. That's to say I am sure everyone lives in their heads but I am firmly there, constantly thinking about what others think about me. I just was wondering if this is making my "me" particularly strong and entrenched.

Thank you so much for any guidance.

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Xain
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Re: In need of a guide

Postby Xain » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:48 pm

Hi Rob

I would be willing to guide you if you wish.
Reading the book has been both eye opening and frustrating.
I hear this a lot, and I understand.
What is being pointed to is something that the mind cannot grasp hold of, and frustration can be encountered.
I have an anxiety problem. It would be labeled social phobia or social anxiety. I mention it because I extremely live in my head and try to grab on to control everything in my life in order to minimize anxiety and to attempt to manipulate the way others see me or think about me. That's to say I am sure everyone lives in their heads but I am firmly there, constantly thinking about what others think about me. I just was wondering if this is making my "me" particularly strong and entrenched.
This can be some-what of an issue to seeing, but alternatively you have discovered this about yourself. It is a positive finding. It is something you can work on now you have identified this issue.

Before launching forward, please ensure you read this guide:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... f=16&t=221

And please check the Disclaimer on this page here: (Scroll down the page)
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Can I ask, other than the GG book, have you done any other study in relation to this subject, followed any practises or been with any teachers?

Xain ♥

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Robwreck
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Re: In need of a guide

Postby Robwreck » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:17 pm

Thank you for responding, Xain.

My first exposure to anything like this was back around 2005 with Tolle and the Power of Now, which I actually got into on a recommendation to help with anxiety. For many years that was kept mostly at a curiosity level, until maybe 2010 or where I really got into more Tolle, Anthony De Mello and Adyashanti. The last couple years has by far been Adyashanti and Jed Mckenna.

Practice has mostly been listening to audio recordings and reading. Then of course trying to apply any of the teachings in day to day life and introspection. I have not really meditated much as it never really resonated with me.

Adyashanti is the main teacher I've followed. I like his style but after reading the Gatecrashers book so far I am starting to wonder if his stuff has too much extra, considering how simple this all appears to be. Jed Mckenna stuff felt heavy and meaningful, especially the third book which was more giving up on the big enlightenment thing and just focusing being a human adult. The thing is, the heaviness of his stuff would scare me sometimes, especially on the sense that I would maybe have to leave family and friends behind.

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Xain
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Re: In need of a guide

Postby Xain » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:54 pm

Thank you for responding, Xain.
You are very welcome. Let's go on a journey together and see what can be found!
I know Tolle and Adyashanti - I've read 'The Power of Now' about seven times so I am very familiar with it :-)
I have not really meditated much as it never really resonated with me.
Me neither. It is fine as a temporary relief, but I was always looking for something more substantial.

Adyashanti, Tolle and Jed are great teachers but as 'teachers' they explain everything, so that on a mental level you have a full understanding of the subject.
They don't get you to LOOK, force you to SEE, to gain the experience for yourself.
That's where Liberation Unleashed comes in.
. . . especially on the sense that I would maybe have to leave family and friends behind.
I can assure you, you don't need to do anything like that.

Before continuing, please feel free to use the QUOTE function like I have done here to quote your original reply back to you. It makes the conversation easier to read.
A guide can be found here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Ok, take this next phrase as if I was saying it to you directly.
'There is no you. This 'I', this 'me' you refer to as being yourself does not exist. It never has done. It never will do'

What comes up? Any feeling? Worries?

Xain ♥

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Robwreck
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Re: In need of a guide

Postby Robwreck » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:23 pm

Ok, take this next phrase as if I was saying it to you directly.
'There is no you. This 'I', this 'me' you refer to as being yourself does not exist. It never has done. It never will do'

What comes up? Any feeling? Worries?
There is some lightness, kind of like a weight off. It reminds me of how they say to ask yourself "Who/What am I?" and to be still and observe before the mind jumps in and tries to answer. It is that same feeling of nothingness.

But there is also some fear/anxiety, a feeling kind of in the gut.

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Xain
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Re: In need of a guide

Postby Xain » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:36 pm

But there is also some fear/anxiety, a feeling kind of in the gut.
Is it strong?
Don't push it away, let it in. Feelings of fear are there to protect us from harm.
Could you say what it points to? Fear and anxiety of what?

Xain ♥

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Robwreck
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Re: In need of a guide

Postby Robwreck » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:10 pm

But there is also some fear/anxiety, a feeling kind of in the gut.
Is it strong?
Don't push it away, let it in. Feelings of fear are there to protect us from harm.
Could you say what it points to? Fear and anxiety of what?
No, it is not very strong, maybe somewhere in the middle. The odd thing I notice is that it is still with me right now a bit even as I write this and am not actively looking.

When I don't push it away I can feel being its own thing, separate a bit. Like it is self contained and I can observe it and not feel it is part if me.

However, I am not sure it is telling me much, like what it points to. I have answers but it is tough for me to tell if it is "my" answer or just what I feel is the "right" answer based on my GG readings.

Regardless I will post them here. The fear is protecting the self. Protecting the control I think I have. Protecting the Rob that is in control of life. If there is no Rob then there is no control. A loss of control is one of my biggest fears, I bet.

You know, after typing that out I believe that is really what I see and not just a conditioned answer based on the book.

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Xain
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Re: In need of a guide

Postby Xain » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:58 pm

Regardless I will post them here. The fear is protecting the self. Protecting the control I think I have. Protecting the Rob that is in control of life. If there is no Rob then there is no control. A loss of control is one of my biggest fears, I bet.
If there is no Rob now, then there never has been a Rob.
How much loss of control has this non-existent Rob experienced so far? :-)

What you are is always here. Nothing can possibly be lost. What we aim to achieve is to see directly what you truly are beyond the illusion of the mind.

Perhaps the feelings could be linked in some way to expectations you have of liberation/seeing through the illusion of self. What (if any) expectations do you have? What do you think it will be like, or feel like after seeing no-self?

Xain ♥

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Robwreck
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Re: In need of a guide

Postby Robwreck » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:33 am


Perhaps the feelings could be linked in some way to expectations you have of liberation/seeing through the illusion of self. What (if any) expectations do you have? What do you think it will be like, or feel like after seeing no-self?
I get the feeling the expectations I have are false and can even kind of see that, but nonetheless they are still there in some capacity. So I will just run with it:

I expect a moment of knowing. No bells or angels singing, but some sort of "bang". Some sort of event or something that happens when I get it. I expect to be happy. I expect to have no more problems- mostly in the sense that problems may still be there but they won't bother me anymore-- I will transcend them. I expect to have no more anxiety. I expect to have a quiet mind, or at least not be bothered by it anymore. I expect to be out of the rut I find myself in- stuck in a job that bores me and I hate, stuck in the same routine day in and day out, stuck with no motivation and not much fun. I expect to get the courage to get out of that rut.

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Robwreck
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Re: In need of a guide

Postby Robwreck » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:37 am

If there is no Rob now, then there never has been a Rob.
How much loss of control has this non-existent Rob experienced so far? :-)
I missed this part in my reply above. I was going to edit the post but it seems I don't have that access level, so I will just add another reply.

I like how you stated that. If there never was a Rob then there never was control. It was just an illusion.

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Xain
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Re: In need of a guide

Postby Xain » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:46 am

I get the feeling the expectations I have are false and can even kind of see that, but nonetheless they are still there in some capacity.
That's an honest statement. Your honest approach to this is appreciated.
I expect a moment of knowing. No bells or angels singing, but some sort of "bang". Some sort of event or something that happens when I get it.
That's realistic. Note, though, that there is no-one to 'get' anything. What you seek is here now. It just needs recognising.
I expect to be happy. I expect to have no more problems- mostly in the sense that problems may still be there but they won't bother me anymore-- I will transcend them. I expect to have no more anxiety. I expect to have a quiet mind, or at least not be bothered by it anymore. I expect to be out of the rut I find myself in- stuck in a job that bores me and I hate, stuck in the same routine day in and day out, stuck with no motivation and not much fun. I expect to get the courage to get out of that rut.
These expectations are very unrealistic in my opinion.
Everyone's experiences are unique and it would be wrong of me to tell you what will happen in your case.
It would be very wrong of you to expect that 'seeing' will result in instant perfection and peace. It may be that realising no-self will be a start point to allow problems and worries to wash away over time.
Any expectations you have will get in the say of 'seeing' - Please put all expectations you have to one side for this conversation.
I like how you stated that. If there never was a Rob then there never was control. It was just an illusion.
Yes :-)

About editing, yes it is turned off - I can't alter my posts either. The Preview button is your friend :-)

Xain ♥

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Xain
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Re: In need of a guide

Postby Xain » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:59 am

Before proceeding, two things:

Firstly, please endeavour to post at least once a day - Creating a momentum in the conversation is very important.

Secondly, and this is possibly the most IMPORTANT POINT OF ALL, you must endeavour to answer my questions from Direct Experience.
Answering from Direct Experience is simply saying what is here right now.
The temptation is to go to mind for the answer - To give me an answer you have received from previous teaching and training - To analyse and give the answer you THINK is right - To answer from what you have heard Tolle or Ady say. No. Thinking and thought are not required. Analysis of my questions over time is not needed. In fact it will hamper any progress we can make together.
Simply answer from what you feel is correct in the immediate moment.

Ok, let's see what we can find.

First of all, I need to find out what this 'I', this 'me' is in your opinion.
What does the term 'I' or 'me' refer to? What does it point to in your Direct Experience?


Xain ♥

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Robwreck
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Re: In need of a guide

Postby Robwreck » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:41 am

Everyone's experiences are unique and it would be wrong of me to tell you what will happen in your case.
It would be very wrong of you to expect that 'seeing' will result in instant perfection and peace. It may be that realising no-self will be a start point to allow problems and worries to wash away over time.
Any expectations you have will get in the say of 'seeing' - Please put all expectations you have to one side for this conversation.
I will put the expectations to the side. As far as I am concerned right now I have no idea what will happen and can't know what will happen, so why have a firm set of expectations?
Before proceeding, two things:

Firstly, please endeavour to post at least once a day - Creating a momentum in the conversation is very important.

Secondly, and this is possibly the most IMPORTANT POINT OF ALL, you must endeavour to answer my questions from Direct Experience.
Answering from Direct Experience is simply saying what is here right now.
The temptation is to go to mind for the answer - To give me an answer you have received from previous teaching and training - To analyse and give the answer you THINK is right - To answer from what you have heard Tolle or Ady say. No. Thinking and thought are not required. Analysis of my questions over time is not needed. In fact it will hamper any progress we can make together.
Simply answer from what you feel is correct in the immediate moment.
You won't get any problems from me with posting at least once a day :). I am subscribed to the thread and check it when I get notified. I am very eager to proceed with this journey.

As to the direct experience, thank you for clarifying that. I know direct experience was mentioned in the book but I don't believe it was explained quite the way you did. I think I was taking it to be sitting and observing what was there, however, taking lots of time with it, thinking about it, analyzing it, digging to find what I really feel.

I will try to relax, see what is there right now, and not let the mind over analyze.


First of all, I need to find out what this 'I', this 'me' is in your opinion.
What does the term 'I' or 'me' refer to? What does it point to in your Direct Experience?
I and me always seem to be a response to something. I noticed this earlier when I was thinking about my 9 month old baby. I was thinking about something she did that made me laugh and then I had the thought "I love that girl". But I realized that thought was just in response to the emotion of love that was being felt. The thought of "I" was after the feeling of the emotion.

I just don't feel anything behind "I" or "me". If I say "I am typing right now", it feels like just labeling what is happening. Like the typing is the important information, but there is nothing behind the "I". No weight to it.

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Xain
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Re: In need of a guide

Postby Xain » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:01 pm

As to the direct experience, thank you for clarifying that. I know direct experience was mentioned in the book but I don't believe it was explained quite the way you did. I think I was taking it to be sitting and observing what was there, however, taking lots of time with it, thinking about it, analyzing it, digging to find what I really feel.
The temptation is to think, to analyse, to take time. Don't :-) The answer is right here and right now.
I will try to relax, see what is there right now, and not let the mind over analyze.
Spot on!
I and me always seem to be a response to something.
Cool - 'I' is the responder. Or perhaps from your description, the thinker in response to things that happen.
The thought of "I" was after the feeling of the emotion.
Yes, mind labels and judges events afterwards. Be aware though that you have slipped into analysis here.
It's a good observation never-the-less.
If I say "I am typing right now", it feels like just labeling what is happening.
Indeed. But again, don't try to analyse what is happening or think too much. Just answer simply.
Am I right in assuming that 'I' is the typer on the keyboard?

Is there anything else that can be pointed to right now in your experience that is 'I'?

Xain ♥

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Robwreck
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Re: In need of a guide

Postby Robwreck » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:55 pm

I appreciate you pointing out when I am over analyzing. It appears the difference between direct and over analyzing is very subtle, so I definitely need it pointed out.
Am I right in assuming that 'I' is the typer on the keyboard?
I don't know. I get conflicted feelings here.
Is there anything else that can be pointed to right now in your experience that is 'I'?
Nothing tangible, no.


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