Thank you for guiding me

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Bowzie
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Thank you for guiding me

Postby Bowzie » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:55 pm

Hi Detox

Ready when you are....

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Detox
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Re: Thank you for guiding me

Postby Detox » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:34 pm

Hi Detox

Ready when you are....
[

Hey great. We will begin the process Saturday. I'm just coming back from being on tour. be well

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Detox
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Re: Thank you for guiding me

Postby Detox » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:56 am

Hi welcome. My role is to guide you through your own unique process.

There are few things we need to make clear before the journey begins.

Firstly --- what would you like me to call you?
Secondly - Please confirm you have read the disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
Thirdly - we have a working agreement - please see below - and let me know you are happy with it - and that you give me permission to guide you through the process.

1. You agree to post at least once a day.
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to
3. Responses require your utmost honesty
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

I look forward to hearing from you - with kindness Vimalasara

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Bowzie
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Re: Thank you for guiding me

Postby Bowzie » Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:17 am

Hi welcome. My role is to guide you through your own unique process.

There are few things we need to make clear before the journey begins.

Firstly --- what would you like me to call you?
Secondly - Please confirm you have read the disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
Thirdly - we have a working agreement - please see below - and let me know you are happy with it - and that you give me permission to guide you through the process.
Hi Vimalasara, I hope you are well, thank you for welcoming me and thank you again for agreeing to guide me.

Please can you call me SJ.
I confirm that I have read the disclaimer and I am willing to challenge all views and fears.
I am happy with the agreement and I give you permission to guide me through the process.

I am learning to use the quote function!
Putting aside all other teachings etc, I imagine to be difficult, conditions are strongly embedded in me, but I shall do my best, it is the language I relate my experience in, to others and to myself.
Wholeheartedly 'I' am here.

with metta, SJ

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Detox
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Re: Thank you for guiding me

Postby Detox » Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:30 am

Hi SJ,
thank you for responding promptly. Here are some questions for you to explore.

What are your expectations for liberation?
How will this feel?
How will this change you?

Also wanted to refer to something you said in your first post.
Wholeheartedly 'I' am here.
What does the word 'I' point to here and now?

with kindness Vimalasara

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Bowzie
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Re: Thank you for guiding me

Postby Bowzie » Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:00 pm

Hi Vimalasara

Thank you for your questions.

Expectations of liberation are that there may be just the flow of experiences or the awareness of life happening without the stickiness and blurriness the story of 'I' creates.

I have the expectation that this will, amongst other things, be a relief as the construct takes effort to create. There will be just awareness, the energy or flow of life that expresses itself in or through me. Who is the I that recognises this expectation? There is not one, it is from the memory of something I read or may be past experiences...

Other than the above, I expect I will have a different perspective of the same things happening.

When my hands typed 'wholeheartedly 'I' am here', mind was remembering the tendency/habit/pattern I have to throw myself in to whatever I am doing at that time, i.e. to do things wholeheartedly/properly/give as much as I can of my energy to. So I guess this is one of the stories that makes up SJ, there are so many more. There was also the wish that this is expressed to you.

Here and now though, the word 'I' points to a different stream, but again there is memory and fingers typing on a keyboard on my lap, but now there are thoughts that I need to get dressed and go on a play date with the children then a painful feeling when the thought arises that time is short. There is the will or volition to see through the nature of self also present here. Ah, but there is not a 'self' to see through the nature of.

So although when looking, I have not found an experience of self, I still behave as if there is one, i.e. painful feelings of anger, sadness etc, craving and aversion. So why is that? I thought 'what if there is an 'I'? where might it be? Is it the thread that ties all these experiences, emotions, thoughts, memories etc together? I try to feel this thread, nothing. What about a container/vessel of these experiences? I try to feel this, nothing. But the looking has an effect on my mind, which feels different to how it usually works.

with metta
SJ

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Re: Thank you for guiding me

Postby Detox » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:24 am

Sj, thank you for your honesty and clarity.
“There is the will or volition to see through the nature of self also present here. Ah, but there is not a 'self' to see through the nature of.”
This is great – there is a part of your mind knowing there is no self. But also a part of your mind that still identifies with the illusion of self. As you also say below.
“So although when looking, I have not found an experience of self, I still behave as if there is one, i.e. painful feelings of anger, sadness etc, craving and aversion. So why is that? I thought 'what if there is an 'I'? where might it be? Is it the thread that ties all these experiences, emotions, thoughts, memories etc together? I try to feel this thread, nothing. What about a container/vessel of these experiences? I try to feel this, nothing. But the looking has an effect on my mind, which feels different to how it usually works.”
Here are some questions to help you begin to explore this conundrum above.


What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be?


When you say "I", what does that refer to in direct experience? Please describe in detail – does it have a shape? A size? A quality?

In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences anger, sadness etc, craving and aversion ?

Finally I see there is a lot of thinking going on. Can thinking bring you to the truth?

with kindness Vimalasara

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Bowzie
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Re: Thank you for guiding me

Postby Bowzie » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:41 pm

Hi Vimalasara
What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be?

When you say "I", what does that refer to in direct experience? Please describe in detail – does it have a shape? A size? A quality?

In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences anger, sadness etc, craving and aversion ?

Finally I see there is a lot of thinking going on. Can thinking bring you to the truth?

When I read that, the words match my experience, but what comes up, on an emotional level is grief, my children, fear, anxiety. But also, a deep breath out....relief.

I do not have a direct experience of I but my experience of looking for I is one of depth, of calmness, of noticing whatever is at that moment, or is arising in that moment. Whatever that moment is made of, thoughts, emotion, physical sensations, communicating and awareness of those things. Maybe I label the actual awareness of whatever is happening as 'I', but that is not i, that is awareness. Space opens up around the experience and there is more clarity of whatever is happening. But yet I sit here, at another moment thinking, reflecting, distracted from 'looking for' by others, hoping no one will come and speak to me because I want to be left alone, to get to the bottom of this finding an I in my direct experience, feeling aversion to those around me at the same time. Painful feeling as this comes in to awareness. The experience is clinging, of grasping to.

In this aversion, there present; anger, may be hatred and suffering and thoughts that I could have got more peace if I'd have stayed at the office, and then more pain and then shame. A feeling of constriction, but still there is no experience of I in that.

Lol, Im creating my suffering cos i want to be left alone in peace and quiet so that I can burst a blood vessel trying to find a self that doesn't exist! This effort seems like irony, paradoxical.

Thinking won't work. Thoughts can direct my focus or awareness to a certain extent, but there is no experience of I to be directed to. I kind of have to surrender at some point. I don't know what will bring me to the truth. Letting go?

It feels like one of those pictures where you can only sees dots or whatever they are, until you adjust your eyes and there is a picture there that you couldn't see before. I never could see those.

With Metta
SJ

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Detox
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Re: Thank you for guiding me

Postby Detox » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:28 am

Hi Sj thankyou. can you highlight one question and then answer and then the next it will help me to follow the Thread more easily thank you.

it is clear that you have an intellectual understanding of no separate self and what appears to be happening is that suffering seems to be getting in the way of seeing through the illusion of the separate self.

You have written a couple of times a variation of
When I read that, the words match my experience, but what comes up, on an emotional level is grief, my children, fear, anxiety. But also, a deep breath out....relief.

suffering above has been labelled as grief, my children, fear, anxiety.
take time to reflect on the questions during your day.

in direct experience Is there suffering?

is there a sufferer that suffers?

You also write
Im creating my suffering cos i want to be left alone in peace and quiet so that I can burst a blood vessel trying to find a self that doesn't exist! This effort seems like irony, paradoxical.
as you know this the second noble truth, put crudely there is a path that leads to more suffering.

What is suffering? Reflect on this today.


With kindness Vimalasara

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Detox
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Re: Thank you for guiding me

Postby Detox » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:30 am

Apologies away from home on my iPad so highlighting is not the beat. Sandwiched between the highlight Ed I verged commas

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Bowzie
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Re: Thank you for guiding me

Postby Bowzie » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:20 pm

Dear Vimalasara

I only have an Ipad, and i'm not completely sure how to do separate quotes in one text...but i'll learn.
in direct experience Is there suffering?
So this morning, I was doing my makeup in front of the mirror and was thinking about my family, because i had received a message from my sister the previous day. Then the thought came up about my other sister, they both have been doing something that i would like to do. So i had the thought that I would like to do that and i can't and won't be and then a feeling of suffering, which comes, as well, from past conditions of being and/or feeling 'left out' when i was a child and growing up. The feeling of hurt/pain kicked the awareness in that i had said to myself this morning that I would just reflect on one of your questions today - in direct experience is there suffering? My mind went to my reflection (in the mirror) and the feel of the brush on my face, the sunshine pouring through the window, the suffering experience dropped and i came in to the here and now, there is so much joy i experience. So in the direct experience of the thoughts (which did contain the story of I, 'me' not getting what i want) there was suffering. But in the direct experience of coming in to the present moment, there was not. For the rest of the day, i have been focussed on my work and meeting a good friend for lunch, tonight i have been taking a women's group. No strong sense of I in this, just experiences and doing what needs to be done. No suffering, or strong stuff...just joy at seeing others' flourishing and benefitting from the Dharma.

I'd like to spend more time reflecting on the other two questions, if that's alright with you?

Thanks again for all your time on this.

with love, SJ x

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Detox
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Re: Thank you for guiding me

Postby Detox » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:14 am

Yes of course - thank you for noticing you need more time to reflect on the other two questions. I look forward to hearing from you tomorrow

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Bowzie
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Re: Thank you for guiding me

Postby Bowzie » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:39 am

Hi ya,
is there a sufferer that suffers?
I feel the experience of pain or suffering - it is an experience, I feel that experience, but when i look for an experience of a sufferer in that, there isn't one. But there is a story of I which has come in at some point. But i'm not sure if that comes in before or after the experience of suffering starts. I think there is a view that i create the suffering, so if i create the suffering, there must be an i to suffer! There is just the experience of suffering that i feel, i can't locate the sufferer as a separate experience.
what is suffering?
Painful! It's when I have come in to association with an experience and i have aversion to it or want, but can't have something and many other versions. But the suffering in my direct experience is often felt as apainful feeling in my chest, like a stuckness or something hard sticking there or like an aching heart. This sensation is always there when i bring my attention to it. But it is also anger, hatred, jealousy and other painful feelings. A constricting feeling, which feels like i'm folding in on myself. Suffering is an experience, which is painful.

I tried to stay with my direct experience in mediation this evening. I was much closer to the experience of breath than i usually am. I don't know if that is a result of this. There was a light (not a usual experience for me) and i got a sense that there was a mistake or miscommunication somewhere in the reflection of experience, like a blip in the matrix! I don't know if i could say much more than that. As soon as there is an experience, i label it, as soon as i label it, i have embued it with a sense or story of I.

I don't know, it doesn't feel like i'm moving with this, I was trying so hard i was forming deep lines on my forehead and was getting a headache, i gave that up as fruitless because i can't look for something which i don' t believe is there and i can't think my way to the truth. I had the vision of a dog chasing its tail round and round. I did not like feeling aversion to people, just so i could have some peace to experience a self that is not present! That's not my goal.

I'm happy to continue with these reflections if you think that is the best thing for me to do?

Just to let you know also, im off on retreat Friday until Sunday, so I won' t be able to answer during that time. I'll report back Sunday evening though and will continue writing over the weekend..

with metta SJ x

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Detox
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Re: Thank you for guiding me

Postby Detox » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:33 am

Hi Sj you are moving with this - things are always changing. I can see you are working really hard to see through the illusion of self. Saddhu.
You write "bursting a blood vessel trying to look for an "I"
I was trying so hard i was forming deep lines on my forehead and was getting a headache
,

How much strong effort does it need to look and see through the illusion of a separate self?

What would happen if you allowed your self to soften by pausing, opening up and relaxing, trust what emerges, and then allow yourself to listen deeply? (perhaps do this tiny insight dialogue why you are on retreat)

You write suffering is
Painful
but does suffering have to always be painful. We know that physical suffering is real - the human body can not escape physical suffering. But there are some people who live with intense pain - and would not necessarily describe it as painful. The Buddha experience intense back pain - but was his suffering painful? (these are questions to reflect on rather than answer). I can really see how suffering is painful for you . Can you see that anger, aversion, fear are energies arising. They become painful when the illusion of self begins to identify with them. Could the pain be a relief - of seeing what you describe
I
t's when I have come in to association with an experience and i have aversion to it or want, but can't have something and many other versions.


You also write
But the suffering in my direct experience is often felt as apainful feeling in my chest, like a stuckness or something hard sticking there or like an aching heart. This sensation is always there when i bring my attention to it.
Could this be a reaction to what has been seen and nothing else? Does there need to be a label? Is it always there? It maybe it is only there when you have identified with it.

This is where you are moving read hear what you wrote
I feel the experience of pain or suffering - it is an experience, I feel that experience, but when i look for an experience of a sufferer in that, there isn't one. But there is a story of I which has come in at some point. But i'm not sure if that comes in before or after the experience of suffering starts. I think there is a view that i create the suffering, so if i create the suffering, there must be an i to suffer! There is just the experience of suffering that i feel, i can't locate the sufferer as a separate experience.
Exactly there isn't a sufferer - and you have seen this clearly in your own personal experience. Yes and once we begin to see this - and old deluded self can kick in and then say there must be an I to suffer. But trust what you see - rather than trust in the thought that arises after you have seen.

So I do have some questions for you to answer - and see how you do - no rush - write to me Thursday and Friday - and then of course you will be on your retreat and I will hear from you Sunday. Keep the process alive you are seeing more clearly.

It's clear that there are some strong emotions arising. This can happen - and not to worry. As I said - I would like you to perhaps in these moments - pause, relax, open, trust what emerges and then listen deeply.


I would like you to simply notice your emotions without any label.

Are these emotions felt by anyone?
Are they happening to anyone?



with kindness Vimalasara

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Detox
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Re: Thank you for guiding me

Postby Detox » Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:10 am

Hi SJ me again -- please take your time with all of this.

I want you to be aware of stories you tell yourself. See below. I've said enough now -- but thought this would be helpful to add now.
<"I don't know, it doesn't feel like i'm moving with this, I was trying so hard i was forming deep lines on my forehead and was getting a headache, i gave that up as fruitless because i can't look for something which i don' t believe is there and i can't think my way to the truth. I had the vision of a dog chasing its tail round and round. I did not like feeling aversion to people, just so i could have some peace to experience a self that is not present! That's not my goal.">
with kindness Vimalsara


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