Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowate)

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stephanie padma
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Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowate)

Postby stephanie padma » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:16 pm

Hi there,
I’m Padma and I am looking for a guide to help me pass through the Gate.
I have been a seeker all my life and started calling myself a buddhist at the age of 16. I have been ‘practicing’ formally as a buddhist since 1996 in the western style and done a lot of samatha meditation and retreats and study of Buddhism. In recent years I have moved away from my tradition’s practices and have been doing Insight meditation which has spurred my practice on. ‘Things’ have started to really change and move on when I had a moment of non-dual awareness on a retreat 18 months ago and realised that all that ‘seeing’ and ‘knowing’ was actually from the heart (for me anyway). Since then I have allowed myself to follow my heart much much more and have discovered Compassion and a deepening confidence in my spiritual intuition and how to contact that (also recently contactable through QiGong).

But ‘I’ am still here!

I have met Ilona at a meeting last week end and she guided me for a while, which felt fine and strong, and had some lasting effect which I cannot really describe other than to say I am really keen to get through that gate now – I can see that as a real possibility, I’ve been feeing clearer and stronger and a bit like on drugs, ridiculously energetic and optimistic, and rather loved up with everything.

I haven’t read all the blogs and the book yet – I just am full up with reading at the moment, (I’m quite slow anyway). I started D.Ingram in January and am ¾ of the way: it’ been an eye opener and inspirational, but also does my head in: too many concepts and lists, once more. I seem to have gone into: “I don’t know anything, I can’t remember any of the list or the Sanskrit words ... i can’t remember any of those things...aargh”. Actually I have decided to be fine with that, I have been there before, especially when I get strongly in touch through my heart, which understands more, but is not so good at articulating it! I am intending to read the’ gateless crashers’ tonight and tomorrow though.

I’m sure I have many expectations and fears about ‘liberation’ and stream entry:
That I won’t be able to do it because I can’t remember the lists and my head is not my spiritual organ!!
That I won’t be able to do it because I’m not good enough and don’t deserve it
That it will be really hard to get and really destructive when it happens and my life will fall apart, I won’t be able to cope etc
That it will make everything better and easier and I won’t be afraid anymore
That I’ll be floating on a little cloud and will never get angry again (i don’t really believe that, but it’s there somewhere)

I hope that from this process I will be entering the stream of life-as-it-is and start living from the heart and not from fear. I hope that I’ll be able to be my ‘true self’ and express my potential in this world in a much ‘streamy’ – ‘streamline’ – ‘flowy’ sort of way: stop struggling with life, start playing, seeing the beauty of the world, sensing my place in the world, love & respond to what is rather than defend myself.

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kvotski
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Re: Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowat

Postby kvotski » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:42 pm

Hi Padma,

My name is Sunil, we use first names here. Would be happy to be your guide if you wish.

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Re: Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowat

Postby kvotski » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:50 am

Sorry I didn't see your request, good luck.

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Re: Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowat

Postby perrym » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:45 pm

Hi Padma,

Thank you for inviting me to help guide you through the gate - it is an honour.

A few preliminaries:
  • Please could you confirm that you have read the Disclaimer on the home page
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Thanks for laying out your expectations - it is worth spending a bit of time here, it makes things more straightforward later...
But ‘I’ am still here!
I wonder what expectation is beneath this?

"Seeing through the illusion of self" does not make the 'sense of self' vanish ... rather, the 'sense of self' may be there much as before, but one knows directly that there is no actual 'self' behind it.

Another way to put this is that 'passing through the gate' is a shift in perspective, a new understanding, not the arising of a particular mental state (nor the falling away of a particular mental state). Everything is there as before, but understood differently.

As an anology ... someone who does not know what a rainbow is might try to travel to its base - you could say they suffer from the 'illusion of rainbow'. Once they understand what a rainbow is, they know it is just an illusion, and won't bother trying to find where it touches the ground .... however, they will still be able to see the pretty colours in the sky!
I haven’t read all the blogs and the book yet
Really, don't feel you need to read up - everything you need for this journey is right here in experience, you don't need anything more ... though I might drop in a little theory if expectations seem to be getting in the way ...

On the subject of which - I know your list of expectations is partly acknowledging things that you don't entirely believe, but let's look at them seriously anyway:
That I won’t be able to do it because I can’t remember the lists and my head is not my spiritual organ!!
Well you're in luck - direct pointing involves no lists :-)

In fact, you're doubly in luck, since approaching direct pointing from the intellect can be a major obstacle - this process is all about direct observation of immediate experience, being 'observant' not 'clever'
That I won’t be able to do it because I’m not good enough and don’t deserve it
This is, of course, just a story, maybe one you were first told when you were so young that you believed it, but it is nothing more than a fictional set of thoughts ... I'm pretty sure you know this already, even if the story still replays now and again!
That it will be really hard to get and really destructive when it happens and my life will fall apart, I won’t be able to cope etc
I guess you've been reading Daniel's description of the Dark Night then :-)

Just a few things to put this into perspective:
- Knowing the truth is better than not knowing
- A 'dark night' is not inevitable, and most people do no 'fall apart'
- Knowing about it helps - a 'dark night' is much worse if you believe that that everything SHOULD be lovely!
That it will make everything better and easier and I won’t be afraid anymore
In the long run, yes; but the shift can be very subtle in the short run, and it may initially appear that very little has actually changed.

In fact, it can be quite disconcerting to discover that one's "selfing" habits return, even once one no longer actually believes in "self" any more. This should not be surprising - habits have their own momentum, and a lifetime's habits cannot just drop away at once.

So to echo the point at the start of this message, the shift is not into a state in which there is no sense of self, or in which habits formed while under the delusion of self no longer arise ... what is new is the certain knowledge that there is no really existing "I" making any of it happen. Even 'selfing' happens without a 'self' at its core!
That I’ll be floating on a little cloud and will never get angry again (i don’t really believe that, but it’s there somewhere)
I'm glad you're aware of this lurking ... of course, this is just a fantasy (what a pity!). Seeing through the illusion of self is incredibly worthwhile, but permanent bliss is not part of the deal :-)

I realise we've spent a lot of time on 'expectations', but it is important to straighten them out as far as possible, or they will trip us up later ... so does anything arise from any of this?

Best wishes,

Perry

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stephanie padma
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Re: Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowat

Postby stephanie padma » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:00 pm

Hi Perry,
Thank you for agreeing to help me pass through the gate; and for responding so quickly.
And thanks for taking the time to go into the details.

Morning reflections:
When I think about seeing through the self, i think about spiritual death, which means Death – dying and falling into a big black hole where I’ll be all alone – of course that doesn’t make sense, if ‘I’dies, how could I be all alone. This is just a story/belief build up by fear.
If I am honest, my experience of suffering and life falling apart is actually more to do with ‘selfing’: when I am defensive, I create huge barriers around me, paranoia and limit ‘myself’ to a very small thing, hiding and not doing much: not following my intuition. Recently (last few months/week/days?), I had a sense of some of that defensiveness falling away. It’s a relief, like I can breathe a bit more, I can be more in relation to people ( appreciate them more and their kindness) and I can be me, believe in myself and do my life more freely: which is how I have managed to get myself in this process.
I like the analogy of the rainbow: it’s like I have spent so much of my energy in life building a wall around the base of the rainbow and trying to hide the rainbow – at the moment I’m thinking I don’t need to do that anymore. I can let the rainbow be and enjoy it!
My sense of ‘I’ has got less tight, a bit wider and looser.

the shift can be very subtle in the short run, and it may initially appear that very little has actually changed.
Mmmh! This awakening stuff sounds a bit boring!!! Maybe that’s why it’s so hard to see.


This Process is already bringing up a lot of fear and grief underneath – i’ve been quite tearful today.

Thanks
Padma
x

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Re: Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowat

Postby perrym » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:57 pm

Hi Padma,

An important preliminary - please could you confirm that you have read the Disclaimer on the home page?
When I think about seeing through the self, i think about spiritual death, which means Death – dying and falling into a big black hole where I’ll be all alone – of course that doesn’t make sense, if ‘I’dies, how could I be all alone. This is just a story/belief build up by fear.
Like all metaphors, 'spiritual death' can be misleading... When you stopped believing in Santa Claus, did Santa Claus die?
Mmmh! This awakening stuff sounds a bit boring!!! Maybe that’s why it’s so hard to see.
You're onto something here :-)

Though it is not so much 'hard to see' as 'easy to pass over' ... it can seem too simple, too obvious, and so one moves on, habitually seeking, seeking, even though the truth has been seen.

.... anyway, enough with the preliminaries! Let's get started!

So, the key to this investigation is to be very clear about what present in 'direct experience' and what is just 'content of thought'.

For the purposes of this investigation, 'direct experience' is real .... sense experience is real, feelings are real, thoughts are real ... but the CONTENT of thought is not real. If a thought arises about Santa Claus, well, the thought is real, it really happens, it is directly experienced, but Santa is not real, he is just the content of thought.

Hopefully that is clear - this distinction is really important, in fact it is the key to unlocking what is meant by 'no self'.

So, please put some time aside and answer the questions below purely from experience:

Seeing is happening - is there an 'I' doing the seeing, or is there just seeing?
Hearing is happening - is there an 'I' doing the hearing, or is there just hearing?
Thoughts arise - is there an 'I' doing the thinking, or are there just thoughts?

Sitting here, right now, where, in DIRECT EXPERIENCE, is "I"?

If a thought about "I" arises, does this mean that "I" must exist?

Take your time, and let me know what you find.

Best wishes,

Perry

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Re: Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowat

Postby stephanie padma » Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:55 pm

Dear Perry,
Practicalities: Yes, I have read the disclaimer a couple of times.
I am also aware that I should be leaving aside other ‘spiritual’ or ‘dharma’ reading during this process: does that mean it would be better not to attend a meditation day led by this guy who just wrote a book on meditation?

Last night, spontaneously remembering what it feels like when I am just doing what I’m doing without the constant self conscious narrator: just getting to work, just saying hello, just putting the kettle on etc... Reflecting, ah, that’s so nice when that happens maybe that’s what this process is about, not constantly thinking about ‘me’ doing stuff and commenting on it and comparing, judging, dramatising etc... in the seen only the seen, in the ‘hello there’ only the ‘hello there’. But then big reactivity in my head: ‘no non no no... the narrating is what it’s all about, the interpretations, the stories: that’s what matters, the dramas: that’s what gives your life meaning: and MEANING is VERY important to you, isn’t it steph?”

Seeing is happening - is there an 'I' doing the seeing, or is there just seeing?
Seeing is happening. I can look at stuff, that’s like an intention to focus awareness on something, but even when I’m not looking I can still see. If I look, I see a bit differently, the seeing is coloured in some way – maybe there is a judgment already: looking ‘for something’. There can be a lot of thoughts about what I see, but they are not doing the seeing.

Hearing is happening - is there an 'I' doing the hearing, or is there just hearing?
Hearing happens all the time often I’d rather it didn’t! Again I can choose to focus my awareness on certain sounds: listening, moving closer. Or away from them: blocking out, ignoring. Hearing happens though regardless. Hearing 'feels' better when I just let it be.

Thoughts arise - is there an 'I' doing the thinking, or are there just thoughts?
Good question! Thoughts arise, a lot. I can focus them on something for a while, but other random thoughts always come in sooner rather than later. Which suggest a rather disorganised process. Is there an I doing the thinking? I don’t know, I don’t know...argh.. I don’t know...

Sitting here, right now, where, in DIRECT EXPERIENCE, is "I"?
There is a sense of presence that seems to be strongly related to my head going down along my spine and round at the front. I’m not sure that is “I” ... a sort of container, it comes and goes a bit. It feels like a witness.
My tummy and heart area are calling strongly. There’s definitively something there. I look, I look... I can’t find Stephanie, where has she gone? ...she's supposed to be there, has she left 'us'? oh dear... Big Tears...

If a thought about "I" arises, does this mean that "I" must exist?
I guess not, I mean logically that sentence doesn't make sense. if a thought about being 7 year old arise, it doesn't make me 7.

But, there is a witnessing of all that stuff and there is something making decisions, choices – surely?

And suddenly 'Stephanie' seem to come up rather than Padma or Padmadrishti. Identity? me me me?

And there's a deep holding in my guts.

Thanks

x

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Re: Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowat

Postby perrym » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:15 pm

Hi Padma,
does that mean it would be better not to attend a meditation day led by this guy who just wrote a book on meditation?
I'll leave that to your judgement :-)
[...] remembering what it feels like when I am just doing what I’m doing without the constant self conscious narrator: just getting to work, just saying hello, just putting the kettle on etc...
When "I" is forgotten, life is indeed simple and pleasant.

However, it's not really what this process is about. What you describe is a passing state of mind - "I" is still believed, but the belief just happens not to be dominating for a while, but everything returns to normal again later.

This process is about making an irreversible change - not temporarily forgetting "I" but seeing that "I" is no more real than Santa Claus. Once this is seen, it cannot be unseen.
even when I’m not looking I can still see.
YES!

This is incredibly simple and obvious, but profoundly significant.

Seeing just happens.

So what does "I see" really mean? Is there really an "I" doing the seeing? Check this out in direct experience - is it possible to find any "I" doing the seeing, or is "I see" just a thought added onto "just seeing"?
There can be a lot of thoughts about what I see, but they are not doing the seeing.
Another really good observation - nice work :-)
Hearing happens though regardless.
Very good - and the same questions arise as with seeing ... What does "I hear" really mean, then? Is the "I" really there? Or is it just a misleading figure of speech?
Is there an I doing the thinking? I don’t know, I don’t know...argh.. I don’t know...
"I don't know" can be a good place to be - much better "I don't know" than making stuff up :-)
random thoughts always come in sooner rather than later. Which suggest a rather disorganised process.
Yes, very good!

So do you know in advance what thought is going to arise next?

If I ask you .... think of a number between 1 and 20 .... a number arises, but did 'you' make this number come up, or did it just pop up?

In direct experience, is there an "I" that "does" the thinking, or do thoughts just happen?
There is a sense of presence that seems to be strongly related to my head going down along my spine and round at the front. I’m not sure that is “I” ... a sort of container, it comes and goes a bit. It feels like a witness. My tummy and heart area are calling strongly. There’s definitively something there.
All the sensations that you describe are real, they are happening - as you say, there is definitely something there .... yet when you turn attention to these direct experiences, are any of them what you mean by "Stephanie"?
I look, I look... I can’t find Stephanie, where has she gone? ...she's supposed to be there, has she left 'us'? oh dear... Big Tears...
Very good! Very good!

Has Stephanie left us, or was she never there except as a thought?

Is Stephanie there in direct experience, or only as the content of thought?

How does this feel?

Enough for now, let's consider witnessing and deciding another time....

Very best wishes,

Perry

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Re: Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowat

Postby stephanie padma » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:00 pm

Hi Perry,

I here, I see.
There is seeing and hearing, and there is an appropriation of these experiences. Seeing happens and then something goes’ I did that’, but it didn’t. Damn! Arrogant liar!
Thoughts seem to come immediately after the seeing and grasp at that, like little hands grasping stuff and organising things – trying /desperate to get some sort of order going - it’s all happening so fast.
This is a little bit of a new observation – not 100% sure of that – jury’s still out.

In direct experience, is there an "I" that "does" the thinking, or do thoughts just happen?


Jumble of thoughts, all happening, very randomly and chaotically. some, really out of nowhere? Yet, I can also decide what to think about sometimes? for short periods of time...maybe, or not... I don’t know...

when you turn attention to these direct experiences, are any of them what you mean by "Stephanie"?
Not individually, the sensations are not fixed, they pulsate and move constantly and sometimes disappear altogether. Not one of these sensations is stephanie in themselves individually. But maybe stephanie is more like the sum total of all that happening – (like a process of being?). the rainbow is not each individual colour, but the whole thing.

Has Stephanie left us, or was she never there except as a thought?
I don’t know! These questions just bring up deep sadness and perplexity.
I suddenly get the thought/feeling that stephanie is my best friend and I’m a bit angry with Perry (sorry!) for suggesting she’s just a figment of my imagination. An imaginary friend! Ah ah ah!

Is Stephanie there in direct experience, or only as the content of thought?
Memories of the past. Ideas about what I look like from the outside and how clever or stupid I am. Lots of fantasies about ridiculous stuff that doesn’t exist. Lots of fantastic stories about the future.

How does this feel?

Not so good!! Sadness, Grief, some fear and many tears.
And a weird feeling sometimes a bit like an empty feeling or that funny feeling I get when I remember I’ve forgotten something – not sure.

Love to you,

Stephanie Padma

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Re: Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowat

Postby perrym » Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:23 pm

Hi Padma,
There is seeing and hearing, and there is an appropriation of these experiences. Seeing happens and then something goes’ I did that’, but it didn’t. Damn! Arrogant liar!
Well spotted! This is important.

Let's take it a little further ... Can you find, in direct experience, a 'something' that goes "I did that"? Or are you just assuming that there must be 'something' behind the thought?

Is it possible that "I did that" is just a thought arising and passing in dependence upon conditions, without a 'something' making it happen?

If it is just a thought arising in dependence upon conditions, then there is no 'arrogant liar' to be cross with - would this change things? How would it feel?
Not one of these sensations is stephanie in themselves individually.
good
But maybe stephanie is more like the sum total of all that happening – (like a process of being?).
"maybe" .... ? .... so if Stephanie cannot be found in direct experience, is "Stephanie" just a convenient label for all these non-Stephanie experiences going on?
Has Stephanie left us, or was she never there except as a thought?
I don’t know! These questions just bring up deep sadness and perplexity.
I suddenly get the thought/feeling that stephanie is my best friend and I’m a bit angry with Perry (sorry!) for suggesting she’s just a figment of my imagination. An imaginary friend! Ah ah ah!
I love your directness and honesty :-)

It is hard to tell from written communication, but I'm assuming that the sadness and perplexity are not overwhelming, and that you can consider them as part of the process ... are you able to allow them to be there and continue to investigate? If this is all "too much" in some way, you can back off for however long feels right, and pick things up again later...

Also, to be clear: I'm not asking you to take anything on board - this process is not about acquiring new beliefs, but just about looking really honestly at your experience.

So I'm not asking you to believe that 'Stephanie' is an imaginary friend, but I am asking you to consider what you mean by 'Stephanie', and to LOOK, with complete honesty, at whether Stephanie can be found in direct experience, or only in thought.

So ... at the risk of making you even more cross with me ... when you look with completely honesty, do you find that Stephanie IS an imaginary friend? :-)
How does this feel?
Not so good!! Sadness, Grief, some fear and many tears.
And a weird feeling sometimes a bit like an empty feeling or that funny feeling I get when I remember I’ve forgotten something – not sure.
Do you feel you are losing something?

Nobody wants to be under an illusion, yet the word 'disillusioned' is full of sadness ....

I hope you will soon discover that there is more joy in freedom than there was in the illusion of selfhood :-)

Very best wishes,

Perry

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Re: Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowat

Postby stephanie padma » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:59 pm

Hi Perry,
I'm assuming that the sadness and perplexity are not overwhelming, and that you can consider them as part of the process ... are you able to allow them to be there and continue to investigate?
Do you feel you are losing something?
Yes, I am able to be with all that. Though it has felt rather intense and maybe not entirely sustainable. Luckily I had a whole day of Qi-Gong today, so took the opportunity to investigated the feelings a bit more as they released/came up.
My heart is actually fine with this process. Yearning for the Truth, for freedom and there is much joy there. There are tears, but tears of joy and anticipation of ‘going home’.
My guts are where the fear is and grief in the idea of loosing something important and precious. Holding on for dear life. And weirdly, a fear that ‘we’re going to get found out’ doing something profoundly not allowed.
So, I decided I will check my investigations with my heart from now on.
is "Stephanie" just a convenient label for all these non-Stephanie experiences going on?
Stephanie is made up Samskaras, habits that change over time; a body that changes all the time and thoughts constantly wizzing in and out of existence, feelings constantly arising and moving. All this is vaguely concentrated and organised in and around the space that my body occupies to form a temporary and ever changing form, thing, that we call ‘Stephanie’, Stephanie is more like a ‘working title’ because the end product is unknown. This sits well with my Heart.
My head is rather pleased with itself for coming up with such a rather clever concept.
can Stephanie be found in direct experience, or only in thought.
It’s like an idea projected as an image in my mind. It feels like a rather out of date idea. Padma is the newer/better version (the more spiritual 2009 upgrade!), but it is just another image in my mind, albeit a slightly better looking one.
when you look with completely honesty, do you find that Stephanie IS an imaginary friend?
That sits okay with the heart and the guts - today anyway -, but the head is a bit ‘offended’ and resistant (not willing to ‘give her up’)(I thanked my clever mind for its gift to me and told it that it didn’t have to give her up). She has been around for so long, she certainly feels quite real. A clever ‘me ’shape montage of experiences, a collage of photographs all around me: so, everything I say or do or see is seen through this veil of pictures and coloured by it. I tried to dismantle this construction/veil, but didn’t get very far with that.
Can you find, in direct experience, a 'something' that goes "I did that"? Or are you just assuming that there must be 'something' behind the thought?
I am assuming there must be an agency. Mind or thoughts are manically going round putting post-its on every experience (me, mine, I did that). There must be an agency orchestrating all that otherwise it would be meaningless – that would be very scary.
Do thoughts just arise upon conditions? I don’t know – going blank on that (and getting rather tired).
If there is no 'arrogant liar' to be cross with - would this change things? How would it feel?
Yes..it would be really good not to judge my thoughts in that way. There would be much more compassion for myself and freedom – not having to believe the thoughts are important or significant and just letting them be.

With Many thanks,
Stephanie Padma

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Re: Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowat

Postby stephanie padma » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:05 pm

Hi Perry,
More on those thoughts.
First of all, acknowledging the resistance to investigate thoughts, the headache and the distraction.
I don’t really want it to be the fact that thoughts, just arise in dependence upon conditions. That thoughts just happen, without an ‘I’ doing the thinking is not an attractive prospect.

I can see that some thoughts definitively arise on conditions:
-When I am tired certain kind of thoughts will arise, defensive and grumpy ones.
-A nice kiss from my husband whilst I am feeling rested and good within my body will give rise to sensual thoughts.
-Trying to avoid thinking about the insubstantiality of thoughts gives rise to a long ‘train of thoughts’ about a lovely retreat in Scotland! And so on, the thought about Scotland took me to...

I know a lot of my thoughts are habitual – like broken records, stories that are self-fulfilling...ah ha....”self-fulfilling”...! Building up the story of “me and my life”.

But the labelling, appropriation of experiences is much harder to see. Though I did see it the other day.

Padma
xx

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Re: Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowat

Postby perrym » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:17 pm

Hi Padma,
My heart is actually fine with this process. Yearning for the Truth, for freedom and there is much joy there. There are tears, but tears of joy and anticipation of ‘going home’.
Excellent, I'm so glad to hear it :-)

There are so many good points we could follow up from your last message (I like 'working title' too!), but let's zoom in on a couple of areas:
She has been around for so long, she certainly feels quite real. A clever ‘me ’shape montage of experiences, a collage of photographs all around me: so, everything I say or do or see is seen through this veil of pictures and coloured by it. I tried to dismantle this construction/veil, but didn’t get very far with that.
So you recognise that "feels quite real" does not mean "is real" - this is good. A feeling of reality is just another experience...

But is it really true that "everything I say or do or see is seen through this veil..." ?

Come back to direct experience right here, right now - seeing is happening, hearing is happening, there is the sensation of the floor and the chair ... is there really a veil right now, or just simple experience?

Is there ever a 'veil' or is this 'veil' just a name for certain thoughts which arise and pass?

Perhaps there is no veil to dismantle, but just thoughts to notice?
Can you find, in direct experience, a 'something' that goes "I did that"? Or are you just assuming that there must be 'something' behind the thought?
I am assuming there must be an agency. Mind or thoughts are manically going round putting post-its on every experience (me, mine, I did that). There must be an agency orchestrating all that otherwise it would be meaningless – that would be very scary.
Do thoughts just arise upon conditions? I don’t know – going blank on that (and getting rather tired).
I love the 'post-its' metaphor - great observation :-)

Now this is really important: you are assuming there must be an agent orchestrating all this, but can you find this agent in direct experience, or is it just an assumption? Look around the room, witness the post-it-noting happening .... does it just happen, as seeing just happens, hearing just happens, feeling just happens?

If 'no doer of the deed is found', does this really mean that everything is random or meaningless? Look at nature - trees grow, birds migrate, the wind blows, but there is no agent controlling it all ... why must it be difference for human beings?

Best wishes,

Perry

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stephanie padma
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Location: Bristol, UK

Re: Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowat

Postby stephanie padma » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:27 pm

Hi Perry,
Sorry for the late post again.

Is there really a veil or just experiences and certain thoughts -
Perhaps there is no veil to dismantle, but just thoughts to notice?
Quite right, there isn’t really a veil, though it can feel like it, or like a gap. It’s just that most of the time I am not really paying attention to experiences – I am lost in thoughts, distracted, not present.
There are so many thoughts about everything that comes through my senses, noting and judging (like, dislike etc): I get caught in that experience and believe that to be more real than the initial experience. I believe my thoughts to be important and true.
But in truth there are hearing, seeing experiences and thoughts about those.
Look around the room, witness the post-it-noting happening
I had a moment of talking with my husband in the kitchen and saw that everything he said was made into an image in my mind. In fact it was kinda ridiculous, like a cartoon making machine. It just happened, I couldn’t stop it from happening.
Just like a dog can create images in his mind through his sense of smell.
I need to do a lot more of that kind of noticing don't I?
If 'no doer of the deed is found', does this really mean that everything is random or meaningless? Look at nature - trees grow, birds migrate, the wind blows, but there is no agent controlling it all ... why must it be difference for human beings?
That is very touching – reflecting on that in the park, I’m getting that meaning is about love and connection.
But it still brings up fear too.

thanks
Padma

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stephanie padma
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Location: Bristol, UK

Re: Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowat

Postby stephanie padma » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:26 pm

Hi Perry,
There is a veil of thoughts and fear. Thoughts about me, and all this life business is happening to me and my actions and words and thoughts are so important because they are about me. Defining me all the time in relation to whatever arises; Self-ing.
This is keeping me separate from people and the world, which is very painful.
It is keeping me small, very small, much smaller than I really am. Keeping me tightly locked in. Squeezed in a much too small container.

Thanks,
Padma x


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