Thread for Douglita

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jowate
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Thread for Douglita

Postby jowate » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:03 pm

Hi D,

Here's your thread. Let's take it up from here:

"So first thing for you to explore by LOOKING: is there anything that requires no beliefs and cannot be doubted?

By the way, ‘looking’ is shorthand for being directly aware of – it could refer to any of the senses."

T.x

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Re: Thread for Douglita

Postby Douglita » Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:10 am

Thank you T, I appreciate you doing this.
So first thing for you to explore by LOOKING: is there anything that requires no beliefs and cannot be doubted?

By the way, ‘looking’ is shorthand for being directly aware of – it could refer to any of the senses
I dropped this question into a couple of meditations. On the first occasion I experienced the sensations and feelings that arose such as pain in the knee, love, weight, heat, light etc. in themselves as requiring no belief and being undoubtable. On the second occasion I experienced a constant flow of things in my awareness and different qualities to the awareness and experienced the continual flow itself as reliable and undoubtable.

Lv, D

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Re: Thread for Douglita

Postby jowate » Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:29 pm

Hi D,

Good observations. So what's being noticed there is direct experience (as distinct from conceptualisation about experience). Almost all of the investigation in this direct pointing is of or in direct experience, rather than in thinking it through conceptually. This is a simple but very important distinction. What we're getting at here is, in fact, very very simple - it's the mind that complicates it.

How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I / me' that you hold 'yourself' to be?

Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?

T.x

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Re: Thread for Douglita

Postby Douglita » Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:42 pm

How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I / me' that you hold 'yourself' to be?
Bundle of habits/cravings
mother
need to hold a life together; responsibilities yet...
driven to maintain things
Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?
it is a relief to come into experience
I don't want to find my 'self'
sadness
connection with life
relaxation
holding - I can feel a hard kernel around my heart of defensiveness yet I cannot find the 'self' residing anywhere - even there, I don't believe in it. So why am I so busy protecting 'it'? I don't know. I feel grief at all the wasted effort

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Re: Thread for Douglita

Postby Douglita » Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:34 pm

Hi T, Just to add that I only had brief time for doing this today, hence the note form of my reply. I can keep going with this reflection tomorrow and add more unless you think it might be fruitful to change it...D x

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Re: Thread for Douglita

Postby Douglita » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:54 pm

I feel I have been patting myself down searching for the self - an image of being patted down at airport security came to mind in my most recent 'sitting' with all this :-D and I can't find myself (or as you asked, the 'concept of self') for the life of me. :-D It's not that I think I've gone beyond self-view or clinging. I still struggle with addiction to a harmful habit - smoking. There must be selfing in that. I have shame about it. I know I cling to it. I got very angry with a colleague yesterday who I thought was trying to bully me - taps off stuff about bad experiences with employer bullying in the past couple of years, which left me with chronic stress symptoms I've been working to heal. I think I must have self tied up with a view of victimhood/being attacked. I need to go deeper with this. It is hard to find proper time at the moment to do that but I want to keep going. Having expressed something of my frustrations with this process, I also feel something is subtly shifting. It is as if something is loosening or slowly unravelling even though I don't really know what exactly I am loosening. With the exception of the time I felt really rattled and destabilised by the colleague and then got furious…I generally seem lighter.

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Re: Thread for Douglita

Postby jowate » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:46 pm

Hi D,

Sorry for lack of reply over weekend - been away & just back this evening. Will read and respond tomorrow.

T.x

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Re: Thread for Douglita

Postby jowate » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:04 pm

Hi D,
I don't want to find my 'self'


You mean not wanting to find that a ‘self’ is there? Good – there isn’t one to be found! Bear in mind that what’s being looked for is a non-existent, purely imaginary so-called ‘entity’. Yet still LOOK for it as much as possible in direct experience, as only the utter failure to find any such thing is going to take you through the gate.
yet I cannot find the 'self' residing anywhere - even there, I don't believe in it. So why am I so busy protecting 'it'?


You’re on track there. Look at the emotions around this – clarify what it is, exactly, that ‘you’ do get from protecting the self-view. What is the belief?
It's not that I think I've gone beyond self-view or clinging. I still struggle with addiction to a harmful habit - smoking. There must be selfing in that. I have shame about it. I know I cling to it. I got very angry with a colleague yesterday


The self-view is a view – what we’re doing here is about utterly seeing through that erroneous view or belief about how things are / what you are. It’s not about acting in any particular kind of way or having to be free from an addiction or never getting angry again. It’s seeing that no-one is the ‘agent’ behind the addictive behaviour, no really-existing ‘person’ is getting angry. These things are arising through conditions only.

When the non-existence of ‘me’ is seen, this has consequences – behaviours that are currently supported by the me-belief begin to modify, some gradually, some maybe quite radically. But to take it that the fact that these kinds of behaviours (‘selfing’ for short) are ‘still happening’ demonstrates that self-view hasn’t been seen through is missing the point, or looking in the wrong place.
I think I must have self tied up with a view of victimhood/being attacked. I need to go deeper with this


The self-view is caught up in just about everything and makes just about everything fuzzy and complicated. The going deeper needed is seeing through the existence of ‘me’, the ‘victim’.

Can you see right now that the self-view is nothing but a mistaken belief? Where is the ‘victim’ now? Can it be found?
Having expressed something of my frustrations with this process, I also feel something is subtly shifting. It is as if something is loosening or slowly unravelling even though I don't really know what exactly I am loosening. With the exception of the time I felt really rattled and destabilised by the colleague and then got furious…I generally seem lighter.


‘Feeling lighter’ is on track! But again – don’t attach to that or expect is to be an invariable ‘feature’ of seeing through self-view. I can still get rattled by colleagues and situations, and angry, and upset, and there are still addictive behaviours. And it’s clear that there is no ‘entity’ here doing it all – no doer of the deed is to be found!

T.x

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Re: Thread for Douglita

Postby Douglita » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:34 pm

Hi T,

Thank you for all that.
Bear in mind that what’s being looked for is a non-existent, purely imaginary so-called ‘entity’. Yet still LOOK for it as much as possible in direct experience, as only the utter failure to find any such thing is going to take you through the gate.


Yes I meant I didn't want to find a self that is there - but I am beginning to get the hang of going towards/looking for it in order to dispel the myth instead of being averse. There's a kind of 'ha ha' moment every time I go on a serious hunt for it and find it isn't there.
look at the emotions around this – clarify what it is, exactly, that ‘you’ do get from protecting the self-view. What is the belief?
The protectiveness is tied up with the view of being victim.
The going deeper needed is seeing through the existence of ‘me’, the ‘victim’.

Can you see right now that the self-view is nothing but a mistaken belief? Where is the ‘victim’ now? Can it be found?
When investigated the victim is childhood stuff. The victim is very aggressive - coiled up defensively, but like a snake ready to strike. Viciousness. At the same time there is no victim/aggressor. I see more like a ball - a tangle - of conditions - of outer pressures building inner emotional habit formations.

It’s not about acting in any particular kind of way or having to be free from an addiction or never getting angry again. It’s seeing that no-one is the ‘agent’ behind the addictive behaviour, no really-existing ‘person’ is getting angry. These things are arising through conditions only.
I found this very moving when I dropped these words into a more absorbed state. What arose was sadness, tenderness, love, as if for a child - there is no bad person there. Outpouring of tears, grief, regret, wish to be freed. The view of bad person or even 'bad habit' has not helped because of the value judgement obscuring. So I experienced purity. innocence. no agent. like being blessed by your yidam at the end of the sadhana. Saw the positive side of protecting…as a mother does a child, protection - values - protected - rakshita
‘Feeling lighter’ is on track! But again – don’t attach to that or expect is to be an invariable ‘feature’ of seeing through self-view
Thank you. Good advice. Lucky timing too to hear this, as I'm finding it a bit of bumpy ride, and in fact was shaking with anger again today when dealing with the 'bully' and things came to a head between us, although I seemed to deal with the situation very effectively and assertively...
And it’s clear that there is no ‘entity’ here doing it all – no doer of the deed is to be found!
Again - I have felt moved by this all day. I am letting it percolate. Thank you!

D x

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Re: Thread for Douglita

Postby jowate » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:00 pm

Hi D,

That's very good - most of that was for clarification, but some practical things to look at further ... I'll leave the ball in your court to see whether you have any more coming out of those, before offering any further pointing.

T.x

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Re: Thread for Douglita

Postby Douglita » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:45 am

Hi T,

Ok I'm happy with that. I'll write more later.
D x

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Re: Thread for Douglita

Postby Douglita » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:37 pm

Hi T,

I'm not sure if I went any further with this today. I kept reflecting on the very simple 'no doer of the deed can be found' throughout the day whether meditating, on the bus, working, gardening or whatever I was doing. However, I've also been busy plus in obsessive, distracted mode quite a lot so haven't had as deep an experience as yesterday. Once or twice I felt that distinct lightness/lightening effect of really getting it.

D x

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Re: Thread for Douglita

Postby jowate » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:50 pm

Hi D,

Can you see that in direct experience, the 'busy plus' person, the obsessive, distracted person, is just as non-existent as the meditative person or the clear, mindful person?

'Who' is distracted? 'Who' is having a deeper experience?

It's not about any kinds of particular experiences, it's about the complete absence of an 'experiencer' or a 'doer' - whatever happens to be turning up in experience.

T.x

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Re: Thread for Douglita

Postby Douglita » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:05 pm

'Who' is distracted? 'Who' is having a deeper experience?
I can see that there is no-one behind the distraction or the absorption; it's just easier to spot when there is a little less speed. And making the effort to slow down more often reminds me of being a child - many memories resurface as I enter into a more sensory engagement with and delight in the world. There's the greater vividness of everything and being present. I was observing the animals in my garden feeling very attuned with them. So have 'I' lost my marbles?!

D x

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Re: Thread for Douglita

Postby Douglita » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:36 am

Hi T,
I'm wondering about whether I've halted in this process, whether I'm misunderstanding what this is all about or just don't quite know how to keep up an intensity. The other option might be… that I've already seen through this illusion of self, or some kind of mixture of all of the above. My guess is that you keep up an intensity of investigation looking for the self in order to finally see through/break through an illusion. My 'problem' is that I don't seem to have a problem with it! :-/ ??? I mean when you ask me a pointing question and I ponder it, mull it, let it sit there in consciousness in everyday life or drop it into a more absorbed state I just see it /notice it or whatever and agree with it immediately. I'm always happy with the recognition of what seems true. Can this be right? Surely there should be more of a struggle, a resistance, a fight-back from a persistent or pernicious self-view? But no there is no disagreement in me, and this happens with all the pointing out so far. I was a bit more surprised or 'struck' by the one about there being no agent behind the addictive behaviour as I found more identification wrapped up in that one, but I could also see through it. The view of non-self is like an old friend smiling; a relief, a pleasure, something to welcome . So I don't know if I'm on the right track or barking up the wrong tree with this. What does it sound like to you?

Dx


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