Looking For Guidance

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patricia
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Looking For Guidance

Postby patricia » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:31 am

Hello!
I have been investigating Advaita Vendanta and non-dualism for about 20 years. Though I have understood the problem of believing I am a separate person, I continue to waver in and out of experiencing the freedom of not being separate. I recently have had the deepest longest lasting experience of no self, but as usual, I made a 360 turn into the mind stories that seem to run unconsciously with a few brakes where it is noticed. I am hoping to find someone to guide me into a lasting and final freedom from the separate self.
Thank You,
patricia

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kvotski
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby kvotski » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:10 am

Hello Patricia,

I would be happy to guide you if you wish. Are you ready?

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patricia
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby patricia » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:28 pm

Yes, I am so ready. I have been reading some of the other conversations which have been helpful. I am also re-reading the Gate Crashers book.
Thanks you so much for your offer to help.
patricia

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kvotski
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby kvotski » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:38 pm

Excellent, Patricia. My name is Sunil.

Here are some initial guidelines and agreements that we would like you to review.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/


“There are a few ground rules, please respond to confirm:

1. You agree to post at least once a day.
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to
3. Responses require your utmost honesty
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical
and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put
all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation
practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we shall
begin.

Best wishes.

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patricia
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby patricia » Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:39 pm

Hi Sunil,
I have read and reviewed all the rules. Thank you again for offering to be my guide.
Regards,
patricia

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kvotski
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby kvotski » Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:56 pm

Ok, Patricia.

Let's begin by answering this question; what comes up when you read, heard or felt that there is no self?

Describe in as much detail as possible. Take your time and mull over this as go about your day. Notice each time, an I, a my or mine comes up. Find out what it means to you.

thanks.

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patricia
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby patricia » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:51 am

Hello Sunil,
I have a lot of experience looking at the "I". I can not find a physical being or entity that has any substance when I look. I understand this intellectually so I was not surprised to hear in the material that there is no "I ". But my experience of this is limited to certain times. I have felt no separation and have been aware of one seamless unified reality, but I still find myself lost in thoughts of separation more times than not.
Today, I heard, "I will do this so that she will respond this way." "I need to get this ready for tomorrow." "This is mine, why is she touching it?" As soon as I notice this happening, the thought comes in that I am in my head and not in the moment. Sometimes, I will be able to stop and notice stillness. Other times, I start thinking about what I can do to be more in the moment.
This morning I woke up thinking of the list of things I must get done. Some mornings, even though I tell myself I should stop and be still, I say, "Just one more thing and then I will stop." Before I know it, I have to leave for work and I have not stopped. What follows is a day of doing, doing, doing.
When things don't go right, I start trying to figure out what I did wrong which brings me to more thinking by a separate self! The world is such a strong pull for me. I just want to stop all this and find peace.
Best Regards,
Patricia

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kvotski
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby kvotski » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:41 pm

Hello Sunil,
I have a lot of experience looking at the "I". I can not find a physical being or entity that has any substance when I look. I understand this intellectually so I was not surprised to hear in the material that there is no "I ". But my experience of this is limited to certain times. I have felt no separation and have been aware of one seamless unified reality, but I still find myself lost in thoughts of separation more times than not.
Today, I heard, "I will do this so that she will respond this way." "I need to get this ready for tomorrow." "This is mine, why is she touching it?" As soon as I notice this happening, the thought comes in that I am in my head and not in the moment. Sometimes, I will be able to stop and notice stillness. Other times, I start thinking about what I can do to be more in the moment.
This morning I woke up thinking of the list of things I must get done. Some mornings, even though I tell myself I should stop and be still, I say, "Just one more thing and then I will stop." Before I know it, I have to leave for work and I have not stopped. What follows is a day of doing, doing, doing.
When things don't go right, I start trying to figure out what I did wrong which brings me to more thinking by a separate self! The world is such a strong pull for me. I just want to stop all this and find peace.
Best Regards,
Patricia
Excellent work Patricia,

Now let's take one I call at a time. When you get a few minutes of quiet perhaps in meditation, try to find this I. For example, you find yourself lost in thoughts. Is there a separate you from the thoughts themselves? Where are these thoughts coming from? In those jumble of thoughts, is the I standing apart in a corner? Is there really a separate witness or is that something that you have been told or you imagine? Very critical that you nail down this critter, its location, its qualities, and most importantly through direct experience. If you do find it, how is it different from the cup of tea you are drinking or the meditation cushion you are sitting on?


Best wishes.

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kvotski
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby kvotski » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:49 pm

Further, I know you have done this intellectually and don't find it when you look. If you don't find it repeatedly, is it not possible that it is just not there, was never there?

Once you know there is no Santa, does he still come back at Christmas time? Do the bullets in a movie hit the audience? See imagination working and firm it in your mind what is imagined versus what is actually experienced.

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patricia
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby patricia » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:27 pm

Hi Sunil,
When I am unconsciously lost in thoughts, I am imagining there is an I in there somewhere. The thoughts just come and go. When I observe the thoughts, I can not find the I in thought but then the I that is observing the thoughts seems to be located in the body.
I have also had a few experiences where there is only the knowing of things and the I seems to be non locate able.
Though I understand that I am not a separate entity, Somehow I must still believe I am!
Thanks,
Patricia

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kvotski
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby kvotski » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:55 pm

Hi Sunil,
When I am unconsciously lost in thoughts, I am imagining there is an I in there somewhere. The thoughts just come and go. When I observe the thoughts, I can not find the I in thought but then the I that is observing the thoughts seems to be located in the body.
I have also had a few experiences where there is only the knowing of things and the I seems to be non locate able.
Though I understand that I am not a separate entity, Somehow I must still believe I am!
Thanks,
Patricia
Hello Patricia,

Let us concentrate on direct experience not imagination and guesses "somehow I must believe..." No beliefs, no Santa, just what you can feel and sense. So, where is the I located? How does it feel? Is it like a toothache, a thrill, a chill, shiver? Or is it just an imagination?

Also do some physical experiments. Close your eyes and touch a surface. What is there? Is it the label you attach, like a table, a cup or a pen? What is it before you give it a name? If you didn't know its name, would you be able to tell the difference. No imagination, just observation.

Please report back.

Best wishes.

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patricia
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby patricia » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:46 pm

Hi Sunil,
I "believed" the I was located in the body but when I stick to direct experience (feeling & sensing) I can't locate an I. I see that there is an imagined I. I can't feel or see or smell or touch or hear an I in the body. But something is aware of feeling, touching , seeing, smelling etc...Something is aware of direct experience.
When I touch a surface with my eyes closed and not use a word or label there is only a tactile sensation, a shape, and a weight.
Regards,
Patricia

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kvotski
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby kvotski » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:40 am

Hi Sunil,
I "believed" the I was located in the body but when I stick to direct experience (feeling & sensing) I can't locate an I. I see that there is an imagined I. I can't feel or see or smell or touch or hear an I in the body. But something is aware of feeling, touching , seeing, smelling etc...Something is aware of direct experience.
When I touch a surface with my eyes closed and not use a word or label there is only a tactile sensation, a shape, and a weight.
Regards,
Patricia
Hello Patricia,

Great work, we are on the right track.

Let us come back to that something that is aware, a little later on.

For now, I would like you to consider the decision making process that Patricia uses. Take a couple of items or choices that you have to make. Tea or coffee, apple or orange, sandwich or soup or both...Follow the process of how the decision is made. Is there someone making the choices or are they happening based on completely external factors? In other words, are you in control of events around you? Or are they happening the same way as breathing or walking or sleeping? Is there a doer in any of this? Please describe in as much detail as you can. This is a critical element in locating this I, me or self or even something that is aware of all this. Take your time.

Best wishes,

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patricia
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby patricia » Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:43 pm

Hi Sunil,
Here is my observation on the decision making process: "I have to get up and make coffee." "Maybe today I will just have tea." " I must stop drinking so much soy milk in my coffee." "I'll have some green tea to detox and then I will keep drinking coffee." "I can't give up coffee now." "I have too much to do in the next few weeks." Decisions are made by thoughts that contain no I. They come and go at random times. If it was evening rather than morning, thoughts of coffee would not come, so external factors do have influence over thoughts. If I believed that there was some "one" behind the I in an I thought, then I would say I was in control of my thoughts. But I can't find that self and the I thoughts just randomly show up according to what is happening. For instance, the I thought arises that, "I want to go running today because it is sunny and warm." If it was raining, the thought would be different. The thoughts seem to arise according to the weather, or in the case of coffee this morning, according to possible future events.
I don't have control over the thoughts, the weather or future events. So what is going on here?
It seems that the I in an I thought is doing the thinking but there is no one there, just these thoughts with the label I on them. The thoughts seem to arise according to what is going on outside the thoughts. Thoughts say they they or the I can anticipate or manipulate and therefore control outside events. For instance, find out what the weather is ahead of time or figure out what a person is doing, to know if they will call or stop by. But all these thoughts arise because of what is happening. It 's morning. The day will unfold which is beyond our control. Thoughts arise about that. Because they are thoughts with the label I, we believe that the non existent I is us, and that we are making the decisions that the thought come up with.
I am not in a thought. I am not in a body. I can not control thoughts, events or anything. But I am alive. Something is going on.

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kvotski
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby kvotski » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:55 pm

For instance, find out what the weather is ahead of time or figure out what a person is doing, to know if they will call or stop by. But all these thoughts arise because of what is happening. It 's morning. The day will unfold which is beyond our control. Thoughts arise about that. Because they are thoughts with the label I, we believe that the non existent I is us, and that we are making the decisions that the thought come up with.
I am not in a thought. I am not in a body. I can not control thoughts, events or anything. But I am alive. Something is going on.
Great work, Patricia. Hold on to these thoughts, (just kidding).

Where do these thoughts originate? and where do they go? Is that process any different from breathing or your heart beating?

You are not in the body, you can't control the thoughts. But you are alive, Now try to find this you. If you can't find it why do you think it exists? Can you find Santa"? Does he exist? Why such a strong belief that "I" is there somewhere?

Something is going on but is it the self? Could it be something we don't know? And tag it I, me or self based on a very ancient habit purely originated by circumstances like the weather making you decide to go running. Please contemplate this and come back with an I for me...

Best wishes.


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