Lead me through the Gate please!

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Lead me through the Gate please!

Postby Vancouverite » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:53 pm

Hi there,

I am looking for a guide to lead me through the Gate please!

In 2012, I worked with a teacher doing similar work and do feel that I have seen through the "I" thought to some degree. However, attached to this work was a teaching and I am not sure how much I have actually seen and how much was just a new belief system.

I would so appreciate being able to clear this up.

Thank you!
Su

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Re: Lead me through the Gate please!

Postby dreamer » Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:41 am

Hi Su

Welcome

Please explain what you feel you have seen.

Greetings Vivi

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Re: Lead me through the Gate please!

Postby Vancouverite » Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:06 pm

Hi Vivi,

Thank you for responding - very much appreciated.

[quote][/quote]

I have seen that "I" is sporadic, that it comes and goes. That much of daily activity happens without any "I" thought at all. That when focus is right now, there is no I or any other labelling happening, yet things get done and daily life goes on.

That thoughts, feelings, emotions, sights, sounds etc. appear and disappear and it is with thinking and memory that these are collected and held together as my story. I have and do still see some very regular patterns of behaviour occurring over and over.

With all of this came significant relief.

Where the "I" still prevails, is around money and whether my business will be successful or not. Fear, anxiety, responsibility and a need to figure out the right thing to do pops up and with all of this - I/me the one who needs to do something. Even writing this brings it very present for me - a sensation of pressure or constriction in my throat and chest. Somehow here, even seeing what I have seen does not release me from spinning in here - that something needs to be done and I must do it.

I hope that this answers your question fully Vivi.

Warmly,
Su

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Re: Lead me through the Gate please!

Postby dreamer » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:35 pm

Hello Su

Yes question is answered, thank you
That much of daily activity happens without any "I" thought at all.
What daily activities happens with an 'I' in your direct experience?
Even writing this brings it very present for me - a sensation of pressure or constriction in my throat and chest
Where the "I" still prevails, is around money and whether my business will be successful or not. Fear, anxiety, responsibility and a need to figure out the right thing to do pops up and with all of this - I/me the one who needs to do something. Even writing this brings it very present for me - a sensation of pressure or constriction in my throat and chest. Somehow here, even seeing what I have seen does not release me from spinning in here - that something needs to be done and I must do it.
Look closely into what you have written in this paragraph. What are the expectations laying behind the words?

What is the fear and anxiety about?
Even writing this brings it very present for me - a sensation of pressure or constriction in my throat and chest
When the pressure and constriction in throat and chest is felt - what is the connection to fear and anxiety? What is the connection to money and business?

Greetings Vivi

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Re: Lead me through the Gate please!

Postby Vancouverite » Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:03 am

Hello Vivi,

Thanks for these questions ...
What daily activities happens with an 'I' in your direct experience?
There are no activities in my direct experience with an "I" - it is very clear to me that these daily activities happen automatically/ spontaneously and that things get done by no one.
The "I" thought does sometimes come up when there is a strong feeling of resistance to something. Most times this is seen through very quickly. Sometimes, particularly if what is happening has emotion attached, for a time there is such focused involvement in what is being said or done that all sorts of "I" thoughts, attitudes and judgements flood in and the self righteous end result feels like an "I" for a bit and is, with hindsight, seen through (usually with quite a bit of humor).

Where the "I" still prevails, is around money and whether my business will be successful or not. Fear, anxiety, responsibility and a need to figure out the right thing to do pops up and with all of this - I/me the one who needs to do something. Even writing this brings it very present for me - a sensation of pressure or constriction in my throat and chest. Somehow here, even seeing what I have seen does not release me from spinning in here - that something needs to be done and I must do it.

Look closely into what you have written in this paragraph. What are the expectations laying behind the words?
I love this question! I hadn't seen this - that I expected this fear and dread to leave when misidentification left. I assumed that the fear and anxiety related to the "I" thought and that it would go when the "I" was seen through. And I guess that anxiety and fear are really only sensations and emotions that come and go and do not indicate anything at all.
Also I guess that feelings of responsibility can arise and leave as can thoughts of "figuring out the right thing to do" - but these are just thoughts - nothing more significant. The concentration of them all at once doesn't mean anything in particular.


What is the fear and anxiety about?
Failing, not being successful, impacting my children because I can't keep up with the very expensive cost of living in Vancouver.

When the pressure and constriction in throat and chest is felt - what is the connection to fear and anxiety? What is the connection to money and business?
Thank you Vivi - I see that this is a spurious correlation - that there is no linear link here, causality or anything that has inherent meaning. Pressure and constriction happening, feelings of fear and anxiety arising - these come and go and don't necessarily have anything to do with money and business at all. Rather than seeing these for what they are, a story linking them together and labelling this as meaningful is what is happening.

I am going to send this now, but will look into this some more too.

Warmly,
Su

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Re: Lead me through the Gate please!

Postby dreamer » Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:27 am

Very good Su

Yes look into them more. Also look into this:
Is the fear and anxiety grounded in thoughts about future (and/or past) or in something happening this instant.
Does it matter? How/how not?

Greetings Vivi

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Re: Lead me through the Gate please!

Postby Vancouverite » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:39 am

Hi Vivi,

To continue ...
Yes, look into them more
Your questions have allowed the noticing of some odd distinctions that are being made, where some thoughts appear to be given more significance and are more likely to cause distortion or are more likely to be believed without question. These are:
Groups of negative thoughts, emotions and sensations that all seem to indicate the same thing
If the thoughts come up over and over again and are fairly consistent
If the thoughts are serious/ conservative - like taking responsibility
Any thoughts that suggest that something needs figuring out or taken control of
Thoughts that seem to be deeper or understanding more fully
So up until now, while thoughts are seen to appear and leave spontaneously, the above types of thoughts seemed to have more significance. Finding this quite funny and appreciating seeing this.

Is the fear and anxiety grounded in thoughts about future (and/or past) or in something happening this instant.
Does it matter? How/how not?
I have looked at this a few times and before thought and labels, cannot find fear and anxiety about anything. This fear and anxiety is grounded in thoughts about future. This is anxiety about not knowing what the future brings and believing that not knowing what work will come, means no work and therefore financial hardship. All thought that spontaneously arises and reflects conditioning and the past. Again seeing significance where there is none.

Yes, seeing this matters, because again it is just a more solid looking group of thoughts and emotions that were taken as being significant and meaningful and they aren't. Seen through they will fall away.

Thank you! I hope this answers your questions fully enough.
Su

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Re: Lead me through the Gate please!

Postby dreamer » Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:41 pm

Hi Su

You're not answering 'Me' ;)

Do you feel anything still missing?
Do you feel you have seen there is no I?
Any doubts or questions left?

Greetings Vivi

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Re: Lead me through the Gate please!

Postby Vancouverite » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:37 pm

:-) how true Vivi!
Do you feel anything still missing?
Do you feel you have seen there is no I?
Any doubts or questions left?
No doubts or questions left - just gratitude for helping clear this up - thank you!

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Re: Lead me through the Gate please!

Postby dreamer » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:49 pm

Great Su!

I have some questions for you then

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
 
6) Anything to add?

Enjoy!

Greetings Vivi

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Re: Lead me through the Gate please!

Postby Vancouverite » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:56 pm

Thank you for these questions Vivi!!!

:-)
Su

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Re: Lead me through the Gate please!

Postby Vancouverite » Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:27 am

Hi Vivi,
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, there is no separate entity of any kind anywhere and never was. There was just the belief that there was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
I do not recall a time when there was no sense of a separate self. It always was here it seems. It is what I believed I was, a separate me with a body, mind, consciousness and intent that had volition, made choices, generated ideas and worked on improving itself - in time. Memory helped create a linear past full of stored ideas, thoughts and preference (plus hidden conditioning, patterns and distortions) and a very detailed story of who "me" is and isn't. So, accepting the "I" thought (and all other thoughts) without question was just happening.

The "I" was the central source or driver in control of all aspects of "me". Its job was to navigate through life in the way that best served "me".

The bizarre part is that what "I" thought was happening, never happened. It was a thought, a belief. Never actual. So while this expression of life was doing what it does, automatically without anything steering it, there were just many thoughts arising and falling away that told a story that wasn't happening. More thoughts just added to the original story - to fuel it and keep it 'alive' - labelling, describing and conceptualizing.

But nothing ever happened. None of it was real or true. Totally wild really!

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days
.

Before we began this dialogue most "I" thoughts were seen through and thinking was seen as happening spontaneously, feelings, sounds etc arising and falling away automatically (not "mine" or controlled by "me"). However, at times when all experience combined into something that looked like clear evidence that "things were not going well / or not going right" and that "someone needed to do something", clarity seemed lost.

There is relief/ expansion seeing through what is essentially nothing more than a concentration of automatically arising thoughts, sensations and conditionings. Even in the face of these, there is now unwavering awareness of just now - before thought and labels.


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Two things - firstly identifying the expectation behind seeing through the "I" thought and recognizing an assumption that fear and dread would not arise again like it has been doing around business and secondly; seeing the "evidence" strung together - When the pressure and constriction in throat and chest is felt - what is the connection to fear and anxiety? What is the connection to money and business? Seeing it like this made it obviously false.


5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
All that is happening is life expressing itself now. Thoughts come out of nowhere, are here and then vanish again. Choices are made and doing happens spontaneously. Sensations and emotions appear and leave. This is all happening to no one. Pre-thought there is just experience without naming or categorizing or understanding. Just experiencing. Nothing is making anything happen - happening is just happening now.

6) Anything to add?
This inquiry - these questions - brilliantly pointed out what was not being seen through. This brought attention to pure experiencing now. Lots of gratitude - thank you!


Warmly,
Su

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Re: Lead me through the Gate please!

Postby dreamer » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:15 am

Thank you Su

You will hear from me asap

Greetings Vivi


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