Could do with some help here!

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kitf
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Could do with some help here!

Postby kitf » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:51 am

Feel like Im banging my head against the wall-less wall here. I have an intellectual understanding of what's going on and occasional 'experiences?' of seeing clearly. I seem to keep returning to looking for something more, or feeling I just don't get it. I am really frustrated and tired with this and would really like to 'put this to bed' so to speak. Anyone willing to take me on? With thanks Kit

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Re: Could do with some help here!

Postby dreamer » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:37 pm

Hi Kit

I can be your guide.

We will post at least once a day here
generally I will ask questions and you will answer.

If you agree we are rolling.

What do you expect it to be when seeing is clear? Be specific and report carefully and in details about any expectation you can find.

What is it that you intellectually grasp?

Warm regards Vivi

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Re: Could do with some help here!

Postby kitf » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:41 am

Hi Vivi,

Thanks for your offer, and yes to the terms!

I expect it to be……………..more ease in everyday life, more acceptance of things I currently 'stress' over, a dropping of the continual looking for something that's missing……that would be a relief in itself! a return to a less grumpy and better humoured version of myself. It would be lovely if when I get this (or stop not getting it) I could feel some genuine appreciation for the good things in life rather than feeling I need to work at being grateful. Contentment covers a lot of this.

In more detail, there is often an uncomfortable feeling to go with this whatever seems to be missing thought, and my ways of 'dealing' with this discomfort are wide and varied but increasingly seem to be exhausting me……..I really am bored/depressed/frustrated with always working to be OK. My recent analogy is like putting a sticking plaster on a wound, but the plaster keeps coming off and the wound doesn't heal!

Intellectually (I think :)), I know that the I who is central to this doesn't really exist……paradoxically, I, am sick of looking for it and not finding it. I get that one will never find the thing that is looking and that thing is everywhere. Therefor the thing that is looking is nowhere/everywhere i.e. the essence of me. I have a thought that maybe I am trying to claim this emptiness in some way, I had a strong inclination to write the 'the real me' instead of the essence of me just then.

I also understand that a lot if not all, of the seemingly personal frustrations collapse when the central character is seen not to exist. What would they apply to?

Hope this makes sense and just again thanks for you kindness in offering to guide, I feel a sense of relief (tears even) that there is someone willing to help me here.

Kit

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Re: Could do with some help here!

Postby dreamer » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:56 pm

Hi Kit

OK there are the expectations. Let's put them aside for now. We can go back later and look at them if wanted.
Only one comment, isn't it OK, to feel being not OK? It's just a thought that there is a you not OK. Take of the plaster, there is no bleeding wound.

So you seem to have seen that there is no 'I'. What about thoughts then. Are you the thinker of thoughts?

Greetings Vivi

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Re: Could do with some help here!

Postby kitf » Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:49 pm

Hi Vivi,

No, no thinker of thoughts! They just arrive..in honesty (as far as I am able) this doesn't always seem to be the case in the moment so to speak, but at some point I realise that even the most 'sticky' thoughts are just that and they hang around for a while or go (along with accompanying uncomfortable feelings).

Is it OK to be feeling not OK? Well yes ultimately but I guess that the investment in feeling OK is to do with my expectations that I won't have to keep working at this if I really get the no self thing. The frustration keeps it looping as a thought hence the continual looking and failing to find a central self. The question arises have I really got it, or is this a belief and I am deluding myself?

I haven't found a test to find out if this is real seeing or continued delusion (belief). Feeling OK without working at it would prove it perhaps. I used to think it needed to be a "BIG BANG' experience but that has dropped away so kind of feel that the expectations are quite modest…..although as I write this I recognise that even this is an investment in a separate me.

Just a note my brain/mind has been quite good at bullshit so please treat everything I say, even though the intention here is honesty, with a healthy dose of scepticism. I don't want to fool myself,( or make a fool of my-self :) )

As for taking off the plaster I don't really need to, it comes off by itself ..so what am I mistaking for the bleeding wound?

Thanks
K

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Re: Could do with some help here!

Postby dreamer » Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:33 pm

Hi Kit

Don't worry I will take care of any bull shit :)

Let's look at 'my mind'
What exactly is 'mind'?
Is it your mind or a mind?
Does it exist?
Can mind be found anywhere?

Greetings Vivi

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Re: Could do with some help here!

Postby kitf » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:28 pm

Not my mind…a mind…..concept i.e. doesn't really exist….. referring to a group of thoughts around the central concept of 'me'.

Strangely concerned with spelling this correctly! Obviously this mind wants to be seen in a good light. shine it bright hehe.

K

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Re: Could do with some help here!

Postby dreamer » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:44 pm

Hi Kitf

'...a group of thoughts around the central concept of me' Elaborate please.

What about brain and body? Can any existence of those be found. If yes in what way? if no what are they then?


Warm regards Vivi
Can you find a controller or doer? If yes what and where, if no how is anything done?

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Re: Could do with some help here!

Postby kitf » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:17 am

Hi Vivi,

Ok…..haven't really seen this yet but here goes………….Brain and body……..I'm told a brain exists and I see a body and experience sensations which seem to come through it or be sensed by or in it.

I have no direct evidence of a brain but don't feel a need to argue this or this being lazy?

The sensations are registered but honestly I don't know by what…I had an experience this morning of being in the shower and washing my hair when suddenly it seemed like these hand things were doing the washing and they had nothing to do with me. Made me laugh because it seemed such a personal thing for a stranger to be doing if that makes any sense?

Whatever is being registered/experienced can be seen from personal as usual or as though in a space of me-ness this only recently and so seemingly less usual. Can't describe it empty, very clean perhaps?

So yes the body can be found and no it can't………in the 'no it can't space' it is simply feelings sensations senses. It seems to be tied together with a thought that this is a my body but in this space it's not MY body just the sensations and a story that it is a body.

I suppose this kind of answers the first part of your response
'...a group of thoughts around the central concept of me' Elaborate please.
The central concept of me being held together by a series of beliefs and thoughts about what I am, whereas it seems I only really exist as the thoughts or more accurately when the thoughts arise. This in the same way as the central concept of MY body only really holds up when I believe it is my body and don't question it.

Bit muddled all of this sorry……hope it makes sense.

It's funny as I am writing this the clarity is fading a bit, like I'm getting involved with thinking about this and writing it clearly.
Can you find a controller or doer? If yes what and where, if no how is anything done?
I can't find a controller, there is still an attribution of doing to a me most of the time………..I don't know how anything is done if there is no doer………but as I sit here typing this it suddenly occurs that my fingers are typing this and I don't actually know what is coming next but it is still getting typed so in this moment NO, NO doer….

This is the first time I've ever noticed this and as I'm doing this I'm looking around for a controller and it's not there. Really odd experience but fun.

So how is anything done…………it just happens…perhaps in response to a stimulus, automatically? Unconscious control?

Feeling a bit perplexed by this, might sleep on it……..

Thanks for the prodding.

K

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Re: Could do with some help here!

Postby dreamer » Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:53 am

Hello Kitf

Brilliant observations. Yes, your answers makes sense.

During the day/evening look into how things are actually done. No doer anywhere? Never? What happens walking around? Working, eating, sleeping? How are decisions made? What about choices, how do they happen?

Have a nice day
Vivi

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Re: Could do with some help here!

Postby kitf » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:41 pm

HI Vivi,

I am finding this quite difficult to keep in focus during the day, it’s like my mind will not stay on track...so keep coming back to it and I’m not sure how to report this to you.

It’s like nothing is any different but whenever I check there doesn’t seem to be a doer, decisions and choices seem to happen in the moment by themselves but in a way it doesn’t seem any different to how it always is except I’m not ‘taken in’ (fooled) by it so much.

Actually it seems as though the ‘not being able to keep it in focus’ is more like I can’t be bothered to keep checking it out........it gets boring after a while trying to find something you know you’re not going to find! I wonder is that how it (the understanding) becomes stabilised, by simply not keep looking?

Two specific instances......one at the gym this morning on the rowing machine definite sense of my body rowing and a space that that was happening in. It seemed easier to notice this with the constant repetition not much else to distract me. There were a couple of times when it really flowed like it was effortless, the gym actually seemed to go quieter.....interestingly towards the end of the piece, body getting tired and it starting to hurt a bit there was a moment when I noticed my body sensation and it felt like the clarity collapsed and ‘I’ was wanting to stop.

It all got difficult again but it’s like I noticed the change and it went back to noticing the sensations again. That’s not to say the discomfort or breathlessness went away but my relationship to it changed in some way, more objective about it.

The other this afternoon playing my guitar.......My fingers definitely know what they are doing without direction from a me. I found myself thinking if they know what they are doing without direction from ‘me’ why don’t they play better, with less mistakes? I felt a bit cheated so obviously an expectation there that I hadn’t anticipated! In writing this though it seems obvious that there couldn’t possibly have been mistakes because that’s just something my mind said about what was happening.

Actually that describes what has been taking place for a while now, in the moment all (or some) of the old ‘stuff’ comes up but later, seeing it from a different perspective seems to come up.

Choices...and decisions.....?

If I am really clear and not invested in the thought or the emotion (or the outcome?) they simply arise in the same way as everything else happens.

There is a wooly area that I don’t see clearly in that an apparent decision is supposedly made (in the old way of seeing if you like) i.e. a thought comes up to do something and then having noticed it ‘I’ seem to have the option to not act on it. This does seem a bit like a separate decision maker. Free will?

It doesn’t seem right though saying this, as actually in retrospect (again) what has actually happened in direct experience is that another thought counter to the original has come up in exactly the same way as the other preceding thought, without a thinker so the decision is just a follow on from a thought in this case. Not even sure that decision makes sense as a word.......it’s like a label applied after an action which gives a sense of ownership.........How does that look form your side of the fence? (I know what fence!)

The thought keeps arising that I might not be getting this, like I might be cheating...........There seems to be an ‘I’ who is invested in REALLY getting this, there is a tendency to believe this thought still, even though when I look at it as a thought, I see it falls into the same category as all other thoughts. That is why I asked to double check for ‘BS’.

Part of what seems to be missing is trust.........I guess I’ll take that and have a look at it?

Thanks
K

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Re: Could do with some help here!

Postby dreamer » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:05 pm

Hi Kitf

Very fine observations! It look exactly like you describe from 'my side of the fence'.

and why should there be any difference from before? 'I' never existed - it was a belief, so things happens as they do - with or without the belief 'I did it'.

Maybe there is a belief that it can not be that simple? Look into that.
Part of what seems to be missing is trust.........I guess I’ll take that and have a look at it?
What a good idea - look at trust and 'missing trust' what is it in direct experience?

And now you mention free will look at that too.

Also keep observing during the day just like today.

Have a nice day
Vivi

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Re: Could do with some help here!

Postby kitf » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:04 pm

OK thanks

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Re: Could do with some help here!

Postby kitf » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:22 am

Hi Vivi,

Yes looking at ‘it can’t be that simple’ they are now just words with no real meaning they seem to have lost energy.

As to trust...well that was interesting.......whole load of stuff going on there! I won’t give you chapter and verse just the titles!

‘Missing trust’.......a story

‘TRUST’........much more interesting, still a story as such, but seems to point to an energy beyond the word. It’s as though the word’s really close to the space that it lives in (or hangs about in), if that makes sense?

When I really look clearly at the trust that seemed to be missing it is not only just a dry slightly dusty concept but seen to be impossible. ‘I am only trust’ seems closer.

Free will’s a bit of a con as well, all sorts of knots tied up in trying to make that real. Having said that it, as a concept, is pretty good at what it does. It’s like I need to be in a really clear space to see through it, more like seeing into it at the moment :)

A question........

But first the frame:-

I had/have a pretty clear understanding whilst looking at this that
I have found what I have been looking for, don’t really need the certificate now. BUT (don’t laugh).

This isn’t my living experience at the moment, time needs to be taken to look and see this clarity otherwise it’s life as before and (my turn to laugh) nothing has been gained....can’t believe I actually write that!

Is the ‘deepening’ that I read about this knowing or understanding settling in? Being embodied so to speak?

It’s as though my experience in live time hasn’t caught up with my understanding yet, does this change in your experience?

I ask because I think there is an expectation which is not being seen or keeping me feeling stuck.

Thanks
K


PS

I notice how much easier it is to organise this on paper than in my head, this also feels a bit like cheating, like something is missing in my experience.........this might just be again that I haven’t got this in the muscle (so to speak) yet.

Actually I’ve just read through this again and I’ve asked the same question twice. That seems relevant.

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Re: Could do with some help here!

Postby dreamer » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:53 pm

Hi Kitf

Great looking !

:D <-- laughing

The expectation that is not yet seen:
'It has to be different than it is right now'
'I am not getting it, because I have to take time out to look'
'Since a profound shift have not, I must be stuck somewhere'
'Something is missing in my experience'
'It can't be that simple, it is like cheating'

Any of those sentences ring a bell? If yes, what are those sentences, if no - can you find the hidden expectation, is it there? What is it?

Hey ...it is as it is
It really is simple
Nothing is hidden
:)

greetings Vivi


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