i think i am ready

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want2bhumble
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i think i am ready

Postby want2bhumble » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:39 pm

I discovered this forum as I was surfing for information about the ego. My ego, or self, is a problem for me and it is a relief to hear that it does not exist. But I will need to be convinced of this. I have read Gateless Gatecrashers and I want to be one of those brave people who had an Epiphany. I suffer from guilt, resentments, fear, and many other bad things. Please help me someone. I will be a good student (or to say it better, "there will be a good student")!

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kvotski
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Re: i think i am ready

Postby kvotski » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:43 pm

Hello want2,

I would be happy to guide you. Are you ready.

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want2bhumble
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Re: i think i am ready

Postby want2bhumble » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:28 pm

Yes I am ready, teacher. I don't know what words to say right now or what background to give. I will let u direct. Where do we start?

Regards

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kvotski
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Re: i think i am ready

Postby kvotski » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:54 pm

Excellent. We use first names. Mine is Sunil.

To start please confirm that you have read the "rules of the guiding area".

I would like a commitment from you that you wil post something each day as we go on, even when it may seem there is nothing to say. Just a hello would indicate we are still connected. Barring unusual circumstances, of course.

Then I would like you to give me your expectations from this process or even your overall spirituality and search.
Take your time to answer.

Welcome to LU. It is an honour to be your guide.

Sunil

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kvotski
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Re: i think i am ready

Postby kvotski » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:13 pm

Few more administrivia please:

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too. http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

There are a few ground rules,
1. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to
2. Responses require your utmost honesty
3. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

That's all :)

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want2bhumble
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Re: i think i am ready

Postby want2bhumble » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:09 pm

Hello Sunil...and thank you. I will commit to posting here daily and I will put down the other spiritual books that I have been working on. I have read the rules.

My idea of spirituality can be summed up with the word "Surrender." This is to completely let go of my will, my desires, and all my fears. I learned about surrender in 2005 with a 12 step group. It reads, "turning your will over to a higher power" and it worked well for me. It changed my life dramatically and I started living a happy, balanced life.

Then a lot of troubles entered my life; I got distracted and then my pride returned to me. There was job loss, marriage troubles, and depression. I couldn't surrender any more. I forgot how to or how important it was.

I had a real spiritual awakening in 2005 and I have been spending the last several years trying to get it back. Maybe I am chasing after shadows. In any case, I would love it if you can straighten me out.

My self has been tormenting me for too long. The problem is "me." I read here that there is no "me." I am partially convinced of this and would love to really "know" that it is true. That is my humble expectation.

-Greg

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kvotski
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Re: i think i am ready

Postby kvotski » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:23 pm

Hello Greg,

Your freedom is as close as your breath. You are totally primed for breakthrough.

We have a laser like focus here on one thing only and that is to find out if there is really a you.

You have been through a lot but I would like to put aside the past for now. Tell me in great detail, where are you now?
What torments you today? Once you have identified one or two such issues, investigate and report by direct experience only, not imagination, wishful thinking, borrowed concepts from books and teachers; is there a you that you can find facing thses issues?

If you find this you compare it with other direct experiences you have such as the objects around you in the room, this computer, the sky, the sun, the sound you hear and anything else your senses report. Take your time and tell me all.

Peace.

Sunil

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Re: i think i am ready

Postby want2bhumble » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:51 pm

Thank you Sunil. Your words of encouragement have been a wonderful motivator for me. I have spent much of the day yesterday reflecting on the self. There were a few brief moments where I felt truly selfless, I think.

There are so many negative thoughts that I carry around with me that it is difficult to choose. One of them involves anxiety about career. Losing my teaching job after 10 years was traumatizing. I still occasionally have nightmares about career. MY ego wants to control, to resent, to regret the past, and fear the future.

Another problem involves the slavery of addiction. I have a couple of compulsive behaviors and my ego is convinced that I would be incomplete if I do not indulge. Once I do have a slip, then a wave of guilt comes rushing in.

Some of the happiest moments of my life was when I was able to pray /meditate with a sort of self -forgetfulness. These sessions grant me real peace and sanity. But the self always comes rushing back as if to retaliate from an act of spiritual warfare.

Is there a me who has lost his job? Is there a Greg who has been sometimes the victim and sometimes the attacker? I am about 50/50 on this. When I bring my full thought to bear on the idea then there is no self and it feels beautiful. It feels like "divine relief."

Once I start coasting, then the illusion returns. Why am "I" failing? Why did she hurt "MY" feelings? Is "MY " career over.

I found this site and see a place the self can be permanently dispelled. This sounds wonderful.

Greg

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kvotski
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Re: i think i am ready

Postby kvotski » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:53 pm


One of them involves anxiety about career. Losing my teaching job after 10 years was traumatizing. I still occasionally have nightmares about career. MY ego wants to control, to resent, to regret the past, and fear ...
Greg
Hello Greg:

I can sense your pain. We are however focused here on the now, the past only as it is affecting you at this moment. So I picked out one such item from your note. Let us take them one by one.

What is your current direct experience of "nightmares about career"? Be specific, tightening in the chest, light headed. Queezy feeling, etc. If it is not physical, what is it? Describe in detail.

In all this pain, can you find a self? Where is it? What is it? Again, all the details please but just on the career related pain and nightmares for now...

We are on our way, Greg...

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Re: i think i am ready

Postby want2bhumble » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:43 pm

In the last bad dream, I was in a confrontation with a secretary. She had an attitude and I had all that I could take from her so I had a meltdown.

I felt myself getting angry. It was embarrassing to show my temper like that, but somehow pleasurable. I would feel blood flowing to the head and the heart racing fast. It feels primal. I suppose that there is a perceived need to protect Greg.

Underlying all of this are fears that Greg is going to get taken advantage of. Greg is going to be humiliated before his peers. Greg is going to lose face.

Now as I write this I reflect on how rational all of this is. Is there a Greg to be wounded at all? Her words were directed at this mind and body true. But it usually has nothing to do with Greg, really. Her attack was coming from her own pain and suffering.

I am really trying to look for a "me" here, as I compose this note. I can't find one to pin down. There is a heart that beats fast. There is a brain with racing thoughts. There is a fist that clenches. There is an emotion of remorse and guilt afterwards. All of these interact in an extraordinarily complex way. What is the whole? Can the whole be called Greg? Isn't the whole greater than the sum of it's parts?

But even if the whole is greater, nothing proves that it is owned or that "I" have anything to do with it. Debating myself here.

A Bible verse comes to mind. Moses needed a name for the Lord and the Lord responded with "I am". I used to think I understood this. Now I have to wonder... If "He is", maybe it is implied that I am not.

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Re: i think i am ready

Postby kvotski » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:30 pm

In the last bad dream, I was in a confrontation with a secretary. She had an attitude and I had all that I could take from her so I had a meltdown. .

I am really trying to look for a "me" here, as I compose this note. I can't find one to pin down. There is a heart that beats fast. There is a brain with racing thoughts. There is a fist that clenches. There is an emotion of remorse and guilt afterwards. All of these interact in an extraordinarily complex way. What is the whole? Can the whole be called Greg? Isn't the whole greater than the sum of it's parts?

But even if the whole is greater, nothing proves that it is owned or that "I" have anything to do with it. Debating myself here.

A Bible verse comes to mind. Moses needed a name for the Lord and the Lord responded with "I am". I used to think I understood this. Now I have to wonder... If "He is", maybe it is implied that I am not.
Hello Greg

Wonderful exercise. Let's leave religion out for now although I do have some ideas on I AM, OM I AM THAT etc. but later.

For now do debate yourself and find this I, me or self getting upset. Is the blood boiling any different if you were attacked by a wild animal or being mugged, god forbid?

Spend some more time on this you. Is it real or is it a story spun AFTER the blood is boiling? In other words, would there still be anger if there was no you? How different would that be?

Write all you want but just on this I. Look from all angles. See if you can imagine a bad story and watch the body react. Then imagine its resolution. How different is this from a real situation you have faced in the past?

Let's leave the whole and part on the side for now. That is a question after first we have established that there is no you, no part, no Greg...

Peace

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want2bhumble
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Re: i think i am ready

Postby want2bhumble » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:39 pm

For now do debate yourself and find this I, me or self getting upset. Is the blood boiling any different if you were attacked by a wild animal or being mugged, god forbid?
Hello Sunil. I like the way that you keep redirecting me. Good teacher.

No, there does not seem to be much of a difference between my reaction to difficult people and an attack by an animal. Let's see. There would be a rational side trying stay calm and respond appropriately. Opposed to this would be the animal side that wants to take over. The part of me that want to take physical action (fight or flight).

Humans don't normally lock horns like animals do. The way sophisticated humans attack each other is with words or passive aggressive behavior. But I would have to admit that the response would be about the same...physical and emotional.

When I am encountering a difficult person there does seem to be some self talk in my head that tries to prevent me from doing or saying something that I will later regret. It goes like something like this, "OK Greg, you know that you should let this go. This is probably not even about you. He/she is probably having a bad day or is projecting something." The problem, as I see it, is that sometimes that nice voice loses the argument. I can't help but think, "Why would he/she say that to ME. I just want him/her to leave ME alone."

Maybe there is no difference, to answer your question. I have never been mugged or confronted by a wild animal. If I was then I would probably feel those two forces pulling at me. I know that the blood will boil, the heart will race, and the adrenaline will flow. There is no difference at all. A mugging is more intense, but that is just more of the same. No difference.

Its funny because, I used to be cautious about saying that I had it rough. I have never been born in an oppressive, third world country so I do not have the moral authority to say that I have ever been mistreated. I have never been brutally raped, so I have no right to say that I was abused. But, if I am understanding the spirit of this question, the same things go on inside the body when my boss is giving me a hard time.
Spend some more time on this you. Is it real or is it a story spun AFTER the blood is boiling? In other words, would there still be anger if there was no you? How different would that be?

Write all you want but just on this I. Look from all angles. See if you can imagine a bad story and watch the body react. Then imagine its resolution. How different is this from a real situation you have faced in the past?
The stories are intense and unstoppable after the blood is boiling. I have been calling them scripts and resentments, but story works. I like to reimagine the incident over and over and "improve" my performance so as to make my SELF more dominant.

What is the "me"? The "me" gets stronger with every story that is spun. The "me" is the premise underlying all of these resentments. Every one of these stories assumes that there is a "Me." As I close my eyes, and imagine someone being passive aggressive, without the ME, its different. It is tolerable. They are directing their energy towards a body and a mind. But it is not personal when the Me is removed. It becomes almost interesting. Its better.

I wish I could remember to do this at all times. I guess that is why I am here.
Write all you want but just on this I. Look from all angles. See if you can imagine a bad story and watch the body react. Then imagine its resolution. How different is this from a real situation you have faced in the past?
I had another intense dream last night. This one was about my parents. They were following me around and would not let me have any time alone. The more I tried find some peace, the more nuisances they would put in my way. The body got more and more heated. I kept saying, "leave ME alone," "get away from ME." Finally my father tried to physically discipline me like I was a child and then I attacked and insulted him. The resolution is the same as with real, milder, incidents. I have a mixture of pleasure and humiliation running through the body. Just emotions. The emotions are the same, but sometimes the intensity is a little different. The resolution is also the same. I start recreating the incident in the mind and try to imagine how I could have defended the self a little better. After all the scripting and stories die down, then life goes on.

Trying to be honest. Am I doing this right?

Is it ok for me to use the app "enlightening quotes" in my spare time?

Thanks,
Greg

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kvotski
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Re: i think i am ready

Postby kvotski » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:17 pm

The part of me that want to take physical action (fight or flight).

Maybe there is no difference, to answer your question. I have never been mugged or confronted by a wild animal. If I was then I would probably feel those two forces pulling at me. I know that the blood will boil, the heart will race, and the adrenaline will flow. There is no difference at all. A mugging is more intense, but that is just more of the same. No difference.

The "me" is the premise underlying all of these resentments. Every one of these stories assumes that there is a "Me." As I close my eyes, and imagine someone being passive aggressive, without the ME, its different. It is tolerable. They are directing their energy towards a body and a mind. But it is not personal when the Me is removed. It becomes almost interesting. Its better.

I wish I could remember to do this at all times. I guess that is why I am here.

Trying to be honest. Am I doing this right?

Is it ok for me to use the app "enlightening quotes" in my spare time?

Thanks,
Greg
Awesome work, Greg. A lot to chew in one so I have divided these into two. I will come back to your new dream soon. By the way you are being absolutely honest from where I see and yes, quotes can be great help.

First look at the words you have used in the first part.

Let's take a look at the "part" of you. Are there many parts of you or no you? Can you isolate one Greg versus the other? Try to find one and let me know what you see.

You say "may be there is no difference". Where is the may be? How is it different? Is there an I in one case and not in another or in both cases, reactions happen and I comes in to claim it as fear, anger, insult etc.?

When you say "the me underlies all resentments" you have the essence of what we are trying to do here. Not to worry if you can't hold it all the time. No one can. But is it true? That is what you need to establish.

Look at some pleasant instances now. Great movie, good food, beautiful smell; is there you? or are these just reactions happening in the body. Experiences that get reported and then labelled good, bad, happy and sad. This is very important. Once you know that there is no Santa, is it possible to fall back and believe in Santa? You may enjoy his gifts if he gave you Porsche but would you start to believe in Santa?

I will come back to you on the dream soon. But respond to my questions here.

Great progress, Greg.

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kvotski
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Re: i think i am ready

Postby kvotski » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:59 am



I had another intense dream last night. This one was about my parents. They were following me around and would not let me have any time alone. The more I tried find some peace, the more nuisances they would put in my way. The body got more and more heated. I kept saying, "leave ME alone," "get away from ME." Finally my father tried to physically discipline me like I was a child and then I attacked and insulted him. The resolution is the same as with real, milder, incidents. I have a mixture of pleasure and humiliation running through the body. Just emotions. The emotions are the same, but sometimes the intensity is a little different. The resolution is also the same. I start recreating the incident in the mind and try to imagine how I could have defended the self a little better. After all the scripting and stories die down, then life goes on.

Trying to be honest. Am I doing this right?

Is it ok for me to use the app "enlightening quotes" in my spare time?

Thanks,
Greg
On to the dream. First couple of things to clarify, when I say body, that includes the mind. Second, you are doing it just right and enlightening quotes are perfectly fine fodder.

We are not here to analyse dreams but in this case it is an excellent opportunity to see the lack of self. Everything you dreamt, including your parents is created by thoughts, ideas and the mind pretending to be a self. The only reality as defined by direct experience alone, is the physical reaction of sweat, chest tightening, anger you felt, the rest all vapor ware. While you were dreaming you thought his was all real. How is that any different from when you are awake and identifying things as me and mine? Waking hours are thought constructs, dreaming is thought construct.

Is this true?

Please use this opportunity to deeply see that there is just no you, it is all a construct in the mind. You really didn't do anything in the dream. Things just happened but it seemed like you did. Waking hours too, see that there is no you doing anything. Things happen because of events, circumstances and the Big Bang....

Love working with you, Greg. Thanks for being diligent.

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want2bhumble
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Re: i think i am ready

Postby want2bhumble » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:26 pm

Let's take a look at the "part" of you. Are there many parts of you or no you? Can you isolate one Greg versus the other? Try to find one and let me know what you see.
Hello Sunil. I spent some time on this last night. The experience was a little scary and a little sad, but very hopeful. I considered all of these "parts" that I have always taken for grated as true. I have concluded with great certainty that the "I" is unnecessary. I have looked at the Greg that is a father, the Greg that is searching for a career, the Greg that feels victimized, and all the many other facets that come up. None of them are needed for this body to function.

So then I took it a step further and asked, "If I is unnecessary, is it there at all?" I really tried to look objectively without wishing for the answer I like. I couldn't pin down the "I" anywhere.

Here are some fears that pop up when I reflect on this:
-If I am not assertive at work, then I will be taken advantage of.
This body can advocate for itself quite well, even better, when there is no I.

-How can you say there is no I, when all these thoughts tell you differently
What are the thoughts? They are just thoughts. They are not evidence for an I.

-It is just so natural to say, "I am tired." or "I like that" or "I want this"
This is years and years of habit that the mind has been trained to engage in. It is not evidence.
You say "may be there is no difference". Where is the may be? How is it different? Is there an I in one case and not in another or in both cases, reactions happen and I comes in to claim it as fear, anger, insult etc.?
When you say "the me underlies all resentments" you have the essence of what we are trying to do here. Not to worry if you can't hold it all the time. No one can. But is it true? That is what you need to establish.
There can not be a difference. Either there is an I in both cases or in neither cases. The only thing left that serves as evidence for an I is just 38 years of habit, programming, and belief. When I look for real evidence for an I, there is none to be found.

It is such a relief to hear that no one can "hold it all the time." For the last couple of days my mind has toggled back and forth between the old Greg with his plans/ambitions/techniques/glories/trauma/fear/resentments and a new person who is safer and more at peace because there is nothing to protect.

The dream of my parents: The "I" thought is troublesome and distracting. Without it, the difficult situations that life brings can be handled better. When I reflect on a bad experience I can always see a better outcome when the "I" thought is removed.

It seems that I have established how unnecessary and destructive the I thought is. As for its existence, there is not yet 100% certainty about this but it seems like that is where this is all going. Last night, while looking in the mirror I almost cried because it felt like I was saying goodbye to an old friend.


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