Nina

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Detox
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Nina

Postby Detox » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:47 pm

Hi Nina not sure I have got this right - so I am here posting on what I hope is the guiding area. And look forward to you guiding me and sending me some information. Enjoy your time away thank you

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Re: Nina

Postby Detox » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:48 pm

Hi Nina not sure I have got this right - so I am here posting on what I hope is the guiding area. And look forward to you guiding me and sending me some information. Enjoy your time away thank you

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richardcooper2k
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Re: Nina

Postby richardcooper2k » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:18 am

Hi Detox
I can guide you if you would like,
Or would you prefer to wait for Nina to return ?

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Re: Nina/Richard

Postby Detox » Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:23 am

Hi Richard - thank you for writing. I sent a private message as I'm not sure how the guiding posts happen. Hence I saw a message from you - but was not sure where it would go. So I cut and paste the message.

I'm happy to take your offer of guiding me. Thank you.

So how does it work?

Do I look every day for a post from you with my name in?

Please let me know - and thank you to both you and nina -

with metta and karuna

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Re: Nina

Postby richardcooper2k » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:50 am

Hi there :-)

Just keep posting on this thread by clicking on reply below the last post. (like you have done)
If you click on subscribe to topic right at the bottom of the page you will get an e-mail every time i post so you won't need to keep checking (in theory - it works 99.9% of the time)

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we
shall begin.

There are a few ground rules, please respond to confirm:
1. You agree to post at least once a day.
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to
3. Responses require your utmost honesty
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”

Could you also answer the question:
What are your expectations for liberation? How will this feel? How will this change you?

And how would you like me to refer to you ?

If there is anything that you are still unsure of, please ask
Sorry there's a lot to take in there but it's good to get it out of the way

Best wishes, Richard

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Re: Richard/1stPost.

Postby Detox » Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:32 pm

I confirm I have seen all of the above - have watched the video - and would like you to guide me. Thank you.
I agree to post daily, give my utmost honesty, do my best to avoid longwinded anyalytical and philosophical answers, put aside all teachings, and put all my effort and attention in to seeing reality as it is. I will continue my daily and essential meditation practice.

I do not understand the quote function not sure what this means - i cut and paste the link which was not helpfulviewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”. So an example of you would like would be great.
Please refer to me as Detox.
MY FIRST POST
1. My expectation of liberation is - that I will move beyond the self - that I will see clearly that I do not exist.
2. I have no idea how this will feel. I think there will be a sense of freedom - although I will still be chopping the wood and hauling the water when I am liberated. Which feels great.
3. How will it change me - I would have moved from dwelling comfortably in the field of positive emotion and integration into the unknown bitter sweet taste of insight. I will no longer create my suffering through my thinking and emotions. I will see clearly what I am doing - and let go. I will continue to change and enter the stream. And then I have no idea how I will change - but I know I will change. I will wake up to something new. see things as they are.
with metta - Detox

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Re: Nina

Postby richardcooper2k » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:16 am

Hi detox
The way i use the quote function is as follows:
1)Highlight the text you want to quote, right click and select copy
2)Click where you want the quote to appear, right click and select paste
3)Highlight the text you have just pasted
4)Click on quote

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Re: Nina

Postby richardcooper2k » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:37 am

The reason we ask for expectations to be voiced is because it helps to get them out in the open and then discard them (or at least put them to one side while we are investigating). If we have an expectation of what we are looking for it can get in the way of seeing what is actually going on. Liberation is not developing a new understanding. It is more a seeing through of the assumptions we already make about what is experienced.
The same also applies to Buddhist beliefs. They are the finger pointing at the moon. There is nothing wrong with them. But i ask you not to rely on them as they are not the moon we want to see and be.

Please answer the question :
When you say "I", what does that refer to in direct experience? Please describe in detail – does
it have a shape? A size? A quality?

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Re: Nina/Richard-2ndPost

Postby Detox » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:59 am


Please answer the question :
When you say "I", what does that refer to in direct experience? Please describe in detail – does
it have a shape? A size? A quality?[/quote]


I have lost many I's over the years. That I don't know who I is anymore. I was once a very strong direct experience of me being a minority, due to race and sexuality and gender. I was once the thoughts that created my defences against the world to protect me from racism, homophobia and sexism. And I see how clearly those I's were the oppressions I created in my head. My reactions to those concepts was the huge I getting in my way. The I in me has let go of identifying so strongly with black, queer, but there is a part of me that still clings to the self of woman. But it is loosening. As I sat in meditation the I had a shape of a large dark cloud ascending upon me, and I sat letting the cloud pass.

So right now I feels shapeless, formless, But there are those moments when I say I it does arise as black, or as queer or as woman. But I know these I's are the figment of my imagination.

So what does the I refer to when I say I I'm not sure anymore.

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Re: Nina

Postby richardcooper2k » Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:02 pm

So what does the I refer to when I say I I'm not sure anymore.
That (all) sounds great. Not knowing is a useful relationship to have to experience. No assumptions...

Now i don't want to seem pedantic but i'd like to ask some questions about what you wrote so we check for underlying assumptions about what is experienced (assuming there are some :-))
And I see how clearly those I's were the oppressions I created in my head
So these oppressions were thoughts, yes ?
Do "you" create thoughts ?
My reactions to those concepts was the huge I getting in my way
Can you describe what "my reactions" consist of in experience (generally rather than in a specific case)

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Re: Nina

Postby Detox » Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:45 am

Post 3
That (all) sounds great. Not knowing is a useful relationship to have to experience. No assumptions...
My reactions to those concepts was the huge I getting in my way

Can you describe what "my reactions" consist of in experience (generally rather than in a specific case
My reactions consist of in experience clinging on to my black self, queer self. The continual weight of feeling oppressed by racism and homophobia. The experience of seeing other - as so different and far from me. The experience of polarizing around whiteness. My experience of clinging on to things that I considered defined my blackness - my sexuality.
So what does the I refer to when I say I I'm not sure anymore
I'm not sure anymore refers to I'm not sure I exist. Once I was sure of all my identities. And now they have very little relevance in my life. Do I exist I find myself asking? and then confusion and fear arises. This morning as I was traveling to work I had this strong realization. That all craving is - is sensation. And then that sent me on an inquiry if all craving is sensation - Then who am I. I am just sensation. But then I found myself thinking - and in the thinking I saw how I become a fixed self - an identity again - someone who is clinging, grasping after something - though I don't know what. And in the grasping feeling fear, helplessness and confusion. Writing now I see grasping onto something that I think exists. That is me. But who is me? I don't know anymore.
Now i don't want to seem pedantic but i'd like to ask some questions about what you wrote so we check for underlying assumptions about what is experienced (assuming there are some :-))
And I see how clearly those I's were the oppressions I created in my head
So these oppressions were thoughts, yes ?

These oppressions was my stinking thinking. Yes there was a thought that arose - but I clung onto the thought and began thinking - twisting and turning the thoughts and telling myself all sorts of stories. Self Righteously believing some people were racist, sexist, homophobic. Now I'm not saying that these behaviours do not exist. What I am saying something would happen - a trigger - and I could go into a habitual place of thinking it's because I'm queer, I'm female, I'm black - and maybe it was because of this. But the reality was that all I could hear was my thinking - no thoughts arising and ceasing - just stuck like a scratched record.
Do you create Thoughts
Huh - I create my thinking that is for sure. Just like I create my emotions. My thoughts and feelings arise and cease - and when I grasp at them they become thinking and emotions. But I also believe that if my heart didn't have a trace of ill will in it - that the only thoughts that would arise and cease would be ones of metta.

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Re: Nina

Postby richardcooper2k » Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:42 pm

I'm not sure anymore refers to I'm not sure I exist. Once I was sure of all my identities. And now they have very little relevance in my life. Do I exist I find myself asking? and then confusion and fear arises. This morning as I was traveling to work I had this strong realization. That all craving is - is sensation. And then that sent me on an inquiry if all craving is sensation - Then who am I. I am just sensation. But then I found myself thinking - and in the thinking I saw how I become a fixed self - an identity again - someone who is clinging, grasping after something - though I don't know what. And in the grasping feeling fear, helplessness and confusion. Writing now I see grasping onto something that I think exists. That is me. But who is me? I don't know anymore.
That was a great investigation.
So - what can we identify that is real in experience - As well as sensory input (what is seen, heard, tasted, touched, smelled) you noticed thoughts and feelings. Right ? I there anything else ?
Looking a bit closer at thoughts we see a lot of these are labels. These labels can refer to real objects e.g. this keyboard; composite objects e.g school, government; and non-existent entities which may or may not be believed in e.g Santa.
If you put this together, what if life is full and complete with everything that appears in experience? What if that is what you are ? What if this fixed self thing is actually just a thought that gets projected onto experience? And exists in no other way ?
Huh - I create my thinking that is for sure. Just like I create my emotions. My thoughts and feelings arise and cease - and when I grasp at them they become thinking and emotions. But I also believe that if my heart didn't have a trace of ill will in it - that the only thoughts that would arise and cease would be ones of metta.
What if like you say thoughts and feeling just arise in experience ? With no experiencer ?

Explore all this a little and see what comes up.

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Re: Nina

Postby Detox » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:51 am

When I first read your comments this morning I felt so overwhelmed. But my thoughts did not catch on fire. I became aware of sensation. In fact since I have begun this inquiry my gut has felt awful. Sensations in the stomach. I went for a walk today and stood on a bridge listening to the water gushing into a tiny stream. If I jumped into the stream - who would be jumping I asked myself. I laughed - just a bag of bones and flesh jumping into the stream.

I don't exist - f... f... f... I hear myself screaming. I've spent my life wanting to be noticed, to be loved to be special. And I have to accept I don't exist. I am still clinging onto nothing. I can't seem to let go of the self. A self that does not exist. A self I have created in my mind. On the internet. All I am just an illusion. I'm protesting. Not wanting to let go. But as I write this I ask myself not wanting to let go of what? Exactly what don't I want to let go of. It comes and goes - i see it and then I don't. i see that I don't exist and then I don't.

Okay to your questions which are helpful - thank you
So - what can we identify that is real in experience -
Nothing

As well as sensory input (what is seen, heard, tasted, touched, smelled) you noticed thoughts and feelings. Right ? I there anything else ?
Yes. Just sensation. That's the only other thing I can notice. When I see - there is sensation. A vibration in the body. When I hear - there is sensation- a vibration in the body - when I taste - there is sensation - when I touch there is sensation. Just sensation. sometimes pleasant - sometimes unpleasant - sometimes neutral. When it's neutral - there is no me getting in the way. just pure sensation.
Looking a bit closer at thoughts we see a lot of these are labels. These labels can refer to real objects e.g. this keyboard; composite objects e.g school, government; and non-existent entities which may or may not be believed in e.g Santa.
If you put this together, what if life is full and complete with everything that appears in experience? What if that is what you are ? What if this fixed self thing is actually just a thought that gets projected onto experience? And exists in no other way ?
My stomach is wretching when I read this above quote. The fact of not existing in no other way. Yep I see clearly how this fixed self gets projected onto experience. If life was full and complete with everything that appears in experience I don't know who I would be. It wouldn't matter. My stomach is twisting. There is unpleasant sensation arising in my stomach as I write.

What if like you say thoughts and feeling just arise in experience ? With no experiencer ?
Explore all this a little and see what comes up
There is no me - just experience arising and ceasing. I am nothing. No experiencer. I do not need to exist. I do not need to get in the way of experience. I can let go of the thinking and emotions that imprison me. The intellectual self talking. I want to understand it on an emotional level. That is my struggle. It comes it goes. I comes so fleetingly that I can't cling onto the self that thinks it knows and understands.

I'm closing my eyes and as i type i am connecting to the sensation of me tapping the keyboard it is not me - just sensation of the finger connecting to the keyboard. This small experiment is proof to me that somewhere I am clinging onto self. Because as I typed there was no me. Now I am back - looking at the screen. Let go of thinking. That is what I need to do.

I have much gratitude for you guiding me through this process - Thank you.

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Re: Nina

Postby richardcooper2k » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:55 am

Hi Detox

Sounds like the process is unfolding nicely :-)

The sensations in the stomach sound like a "holding on to tension". Just allow it to be with interest and caring.
Nobody is doing this - it is all just arising
I don't exist - f... f... f... I hear myself screaming. I've spent my life wanting to be noticed, to be loved to be special. And I have to accept I don't exist. I am still clinging onto nothing. I can't seem to let go of the self. A self that does not exist. A self I have created in my mind. On the internet. All I am just an illusion. I'm protesting. Not wanting to let go. But as I write this I ask myself not wanting to let go of what? Exactly what don't I want to let go of. It comes and goes - i see it and then I don't. i see that I don't exist and then I don't.
Thoughts which seem to refer to a "self" will continue to arise. They are only thoughts. You have seen there is no self to be found in experience. Is there anything that could let go of a "self" ?
Yes. Just sensation. That's the only other thing I can notice. When I see - there is sensation. A vibration in the body. When I hear - there is sensation- a vibration in the body - when I taste - there is sensation - when I touch there is sensation. Just sensation. sometimes pleasant - sometimes unpleasant - sometimes neutral. When it's neutral - there is no me getting in the way. just pure sensation.
Nice noticing. Just check to see if there is anything experiencing sensation.
My stomach is wretching when I read this above quote. The fact of not existing in no other way. Yep I see clearly how this fixed self gets projected onto experience. If life was full and complete with everything that appears in experience I don't know who I would be. It wouldn't matter. My stomach is twisting. There is unpleasant sensation arising in my stomach as I write.
That's the crux of it, actually seeing how the illusion of selfhood arises. Allow it all to be as it is. We don't need to know who/what we are but it seems good for there to be interest.
There is no me - just experience arising and ceasing. I am nothing. No experiencer. I do not need to exist. I do not need to get in the way of experience. I can let go of the thinking and emotions that imprison me. The intellectual self talking. I want to understand it on an emotional level. That is my struggle. It comes it goes. I comes so fleetingly that I can't cling onto the self that thinks it knows and understands.
Do "you" let go of thinking and emotions or does letting go "just happen" ?
Do "you" have any control the over the coming and going ?
I'm closing my eyes and as i type i am connecting to the sensation of me tapping the keyboard it is not me - just sensation of the finger connecting to the keyboard. This small experiment is proof to me that somewhere I am clinging onto self. Because as I typed there was no me. Now I am back - looking at the screen. Let go of thinking. That is what I need to do.
Is there a "you" that can let go of thinking ?
Is "someone" typing or is it just happening ?
I have much gratitude for you guiding me through this process - Thank you.
It seems only a little nudge was needed :-)

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Re: Nina

Postby Detox » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:35 am

Today I saw clearly that when I react I am trying to protect a fixed self. What felt liberating about that is that if I react less I will loosen my attachment to self.

I committed to doing yoga differently today. And use it more as an insight practise rather than health flexibility and endurance or listening to the dialogue. I let go of the breath and focused on sensation. Just coming back to sensation every time my mind wandered. Well what a shock. normally when I get to the last couple of asanas In The same sequence we do every time I lament to myself oh its almost the end, or how I have wasted my time being so distracted. Well when I came to that point today of the last two asanas. it was oh my god there is no beginning and there is no end. I was flabbergasted. the moment before I was just sensation. then the me arose but before I could think the above thoughts that realization arose.

. Is there anything that could let go of a "self" ?
yes the Me that gets in The way of everything. The Me that creates my suffering. Who is me? IF I let go of reactions I begin to let go of a self.
Just check to see if there is anything experiencing sensation.
While I did yoga today there was only sensation. When I got caught up In thinking then there became a me that was experiencing thinking. in those moments of sensation. there was only sensation.

Do "you" let go of thinking and emotions or does letting go "just happen" ?
intellectually I know letting go Just happens. but I am caught. hence I feel it's me letting go of thinking and emotion. or is it? I need time to reflect on this more.
Do "you" have any control the over the coming and going ?
huh such a brilliant question. I'm one of those kids that had magical thinking. I thought I had control of people coming and going. I would will for someone not to show,up and when they didn't I told myself it had worked. I'm sure there is residue. No I don't have control over coming and going. the Dharma has taught me that. Impermanence. I have absolutely no control over reality. over impermanence. things will come and go. things will arise and cease. Though I had my little protest when one of my life long friend dropped dead. but it was not protest over her demise. coz I know it will happen to all of us including me. That I can not escape. And that feels okay. I did not have shock like others. just in protest that she was no longer there. protest that she had taken a part of me with her. our memories. the selfish self. All about me.


Is there a "you" that can let go of thinking ?
no. have spoken to that above.
Is "someone" typing or is it just happening ?
With my eyes closed it felt as if it was happening. With my eyes open it feels like me. But when I focus on the sensations of my fingers connecting to the keyboard. It's as if there is no me. Just typing.


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