For Deejay

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perrym
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For Deejay

Postby perrym » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:45 pm

Hi Deejay, welcome to LU!

Can you say a little about what brings you here, and your expectations?

x
Perry

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Deejay
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Re: For Deejay

Postby Deejay » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:33 pm

Hi! Very excited to be starting this process! THANK YOU for being my guide. It is so excellent that this is available!

Well I have been practising meditation and Buddhism for over 15 years and now teach a bit too. So, I am here to see the truth and know fully that I've seen it; and then later be able to help others more by having seen it.

I was on a retreat very recently where I believe I started to see through… so that has helped to make it feel possible. Glimpses in the past too, but this was much clearer… somehow this time I was looking headon rather than sideways.

My expectations: I expect that it won't be what I think. There might be turbulence. It might be shockingly simple and therefore hard to believe (that's what so many people report and I think I started to glimpse that). I've had self-doubt come up about my ability to do it but mostly know that is nonsense. Anyway no me to do it.

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Re: For Deejay

Postby perrym » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:09 am

Hi Deejay,

Thanks for the background

Just a formality - please could you confirm that you have read the disclaimer on the home page?

OK, let's find out where we're starting from... What comes up when this is considered:
there is no "you" or "self" in any way, shape or form, there never has been, and there never will be
Just let rip with whatever arises!

x
Perry

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Deejay
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Re: For Deejay

Postby Deejay » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:34 am

Hi! Hadn't sussed how it works, thought there might be notification of a new post, so hadn't spotted your late night reply - thanks for that. Just wrote this post before reading yours. Will reply to yours later.

Worth mentioning some hopes and fears, I think. I realise I have no idea how it's going to go. But there's the hope that seeing will be decisive, a nice clear popping-in-the-head style, or similar. And the fear that it won't be, that it will be indistinct and therefore allow room for later doubt.

On the retreat I had an intense dream about doubt. There was something I knew to be true from past direct experience (that my father had died). Then current direct experience was negating that - he appeared to be alive again. Then my brother was telling me a story that explained this, which really was absurd but part of me started believing it. I felt I was going mad. I am reassuring myself now that this WON'T happen, because direct experience won't be indicating two opposing truths. Phew. I can trust reality.

At the moment my enquiry feels like a lumpy soup, full of indigested bits. The retreat experience, strong and building on previous experience, but certainly not decisive, and at times a tinge of doubt that I was making it all up. Then reading other's threads and the book, that sparking more enquiry and glimpses, and doubts. Longing for a nice sword to cut through it all to the truth! Though at one point yesterday I felt things were unfolding too quickly and felt need to S L O W down and go gently.

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Re: For Deejay

Postby Deejay » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:35 am

And yes... I've read the disclaimer! x

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Re: For Deejay

Postby Deejay » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:05 pm

there is no "you" or "self" in any way, shape or form, there never has been, and there never will be
Ok, I resolved to be succinct but it's not happening, apologies! There is a lot coming up and it all feels relevant.

I've looked at this a few times now since starting to browse the site, anticipating it.
The response is changing.

So I sat with it meditating this morning.
Incredulity (without any specific questions arising), stomach queasiness.
Longing for absence of doubt… then peace in knowing that that is possible… reality can be trusted… then peaceful Just Sitting.

Angst and confusion again that maybe I have already seen and just couldn't bear the simplicity. On the retreat I spoke to the teacher after the strong experience I'd had and he said something like: it sounds like you have seen through the illusion of self. But keep looking'. (I couldn't hear it, too much, and strangely just glossed over it and asked another question. Also a sort of pride reaction was in the mix which commandeered the space to absorb what had been said).

Now: primarily an emotional response, rather than any questions. At some point, a sense of being able to simply be space for other - which was the strongest part of the retreat experience - and bliss and tears from that. Longing to fully surrender and cry.

At the same time a voice saying that I'm just fabricating all this. And fear that it's going too fast… that I'll 'miss out'. I want to enjoy and savour the process, the enjoyment of having the support, having someone alongside me in journey! The sense of wanting to just do the whole enquiry 'from scratch' - as if I could be a blank canvas - Impossible! or maybe as if the retreat experience hadn't happened.. and thoughts that maybe that would help me consolidate the enquiry, and make it all feel less fragmented.

Again experienced something that's recently started arising sometimes, when I look. A shift in my experience of the visual field - a sense of being space for the visual field to be. Bringing incredulity and sometimes tenderness.

At some point something just saying No! No! No! No! Like a child's tantrum, trying to drown everything else out.

Lastly, I reflected on and continued an enquiry that arose from something I had read somewhere on the site (I think on your other thread!): about identifying self with awareness. It struck a chord. I thought - yes I think I do have the sense that I am what is witnessing and knowing my experience. But then it was pointed out (or this is what I took from it) that just knowing experience isn't the same as controlling it: how can awareness be self if it can't control experience? So then I thought: yes, ok, there is no 'I' choosing or controlling… but that's ok, maybe 'I' just knows and witnesses experience.

But then I reflected that awareness isn't separate from what it's aware of. It's full of 'other', so how can it be 'me'. A few years back i did a two month retreat where I took that as my main enquiry: is there awareness separate from its objects? There was quite a seeing that it is not separate. Even though that insight faded, something remained that can be reactivated, and was for a short while on the recent retreat. So sitting just now, I recalled this. I also recalled that it's not possible to find any centre or edge to awareness, so again how can it be me/mine. A lot of stomach queasiness.

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perrym
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Re: For Deejay

Postby perrym » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:46 am

Hi Deejay,
thought there might be notification of a new post
There is a 'subscribe to topic' link at the very bottom of the page - click here and you should get email notifications.
There is a lot coming up and it all feels relevant.
I agree - I'm glad you wrote at length. There is clearly a lot going on, and it is definitely better to have it all out on the table

And what an exciting time! There is a process underway already, I'm really looking forward to travelling with you as it all works itself out.

Some very strong themes - seeing, joy, fear, doubt.... here are some things that may be worth exploring:
maybe I have already seen and just couldn't bear the simplicity
Can you say anything about the events immediately preceding seeing, and what you saw?

Queasiness, angst, 'No No No' ... can you say any more about the nature of any fear relating to seeing? Fear is gold - where there is fear, the illusion is thin ... exploring the fear, have you a sense of what it is protecting, what it is averting attention from, what is just beneath it?

Doubt ... a resurgence of doubt is an opportunity to witness self view very nakedly .... when doubt arises, it is normally with the voice and feeling of the old self-pattern. Next time the chance arises, investigate closely the cloak of familiar self in which doubt is wrapped, take the opportunity to investigate the qualities of the old self-view, notice how familiarity helps create an illusion of 'real self'

x
Perry

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Deejay
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Re: For Deejay

Postby Deejay » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:33 am

Thank you... fabulous questions, loads to explore here! More soon. x

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Deejay
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Re: For Deejay

Postby Deejay » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:08 pm

Hi Perry,
Major Mum health stuff arising... no headspace... back when I can.
Deejay

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perrym
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Re: For Deejay

Postby perrym » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:07 pm

ok, best wishes for you and your mum

come back when you're ready,

Perry

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Deejay
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Re: For Deejay

Postby Deejay » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:58 am

Hi,
I'm really looking forward to travelling with you as it all works itself out.
THANK you.

I wrote some of this early yesterday, but was reluctant to post because I wanted to answer your questions fully, systematically. But realise I can come back to the questions.
Queasiness, angst, 'No No No' ... can you say any more about the nature of any fear relating to seeing? Fear is gold - where there is fear, the illusion is thin ... exploring the fear, have you a sense of what it is protecting, what it is averting attention from, what is just beneath it?

I revisited that sense of 'No, no, no', and underneath it was the desire to cry and surrender. To be in my heart. The fear is that my conceptual mind is being left behind. That is an old theme. For a long time I struggled with the edge in meditation where thought was dropping away… fear and the sense of not knowing how to 'navigate' without thought. Nowaydays… sometimes still fear when duality really drops and there's a sense of no longer knowing what is looking at what.

Today, words from the film 'Girl in a Cafe' came to me. 'Too much knowledge is a dangerous thing. It stops you seeing to the heart of things'. That film all about head and heart, compassion erupting in hearts crusted over by pragmatism and fear.

Do feel sense of something wanting to erupt… and a sense of this process unfolding itself without me. Intuited that if I opened Ananda's poetry book by my bed it would open at a relevant page; and got this:

Grail

You won't find it by searching,
although without constant vigilance
it will always evade you.

And you won't find it by longing,
though without intense desire
your quest will be barren.

The only possible way
is to live every day as though
you already embraced it: then

it will bring you its lucid fire,
it will sail into your heart
and stay as long as you thirst,

as long as you remember
you're its natural home, your wonder
precisely what it needs to heal.
Lucid fire
for me = head and heart integrated. Amitabha Buddha.
'Live each day...'
: HAVE been feeling need to balance enquiry with more Simply Being.
Doubt ... a resurgence of doubt is an opportunity to witness self view very nakedly ....
Evening before last: went to a new Chi Gung class where they emphasize surrendering to chi to allow spontaneous movement .. so people were jerking and shaking and howling all over the place, and it was challenging to my persona! Friends have described their authentic experience of spontaneous chi… and yet part of my response was; they are making it up, fabricating it! The same response I get to my sense of starting to see: clear reflection of my doubt pattern. Masking fear of surrender, being out of control, being judged.

Re doubt, a past insight experience is coming back to me. On the long retreat 5 years ago, I had 10 days of panic attacks whenever I sat. I worked through it, and one fruit was the clear seeing that reality meets me in my longing for truth and authenticity. It cannot and will not be manipulated by my fears and wants. A strong experience of faith, which my doubt dream has led me back to, though I feel that realisation - that I can trust reality - needs to drop deeper into my being to help me through. (Like touching the earth when under assault from Mara).

Feel insights from the past coalescing - despite the view I've held that you can't revisit past insights. One very pertinent one from the long retreat: I let myself know fully that Mum is going to die… exhausting grief… then the q 'is there something to be found underneath this?'… dropped down into just love, far more about Mum than 'me'… space for her. Need that right now!
Can you say anything about the events immediately preceding seeing, and what you saw?
Next post.
x

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Deejay
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Re: For Deejay

Postby Deejay » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:03 pm

Hi,
Can you say anything about the events immediately preceding seeing, and what you saw?
In the night before the end of the retreat, I started imagining Byron Katie in front of me, looking straight into my eyes with her piercing eyes saying: 'So. "There is a self". Is it true?' Then I started looking.

First I just looked inside and found space.

Then I looked in the six senses - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind. With eye, ear etc I could feel the space for 'other' in there. With the body sense, I could feel the habitual patterns that masquerade as self: eg compression round the head, forehead, eyes, tight jaw. Then when I sustained attention to them I could see them changing… and then if felt like the self-sense shifted to tightness in the stomach. The way it was all changing made it clear they were not self.

There was reluctance to look in the mind sense. Some palpitations and stomach turning over, throughout the process but specially with the mind. Looked, as often have, at how awareness is always awareness of something, so can't be self, because arises in dependence on 'other'.

There was massive resistance to answering 'No' to the question 'There is a self - is it true?' What felt the most truthful answer I could give was 'No - but not all parts of me know that yet'.

At some point I really just felt myself as space for other and cried with relief and felt full of love and longing to fully be this: space for other. Calm and clarity as well as doubts: 'Am I kidding myself/making it up/can it really be like this?'. Had a sense of the dependently arising nature of the insight, ie the conditions that had come together to give rise to this experience.

Did some chanting. Things that hooked into my self sense arose, eg things I still felt guilt about. Saw those things as dependent arisings, ie not self. This had been happening a lot already on the retreat. There was a talk explaining how there could be choosing without a chooser - something that had been a burning issue with me for years, had sought clarification but not found it. When clarified, it led to a lot of equanimity, being able to label stuff as just dependent arisings and easily let them go. This ability has faded quite a bit since!

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perrym
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Re: For Deejay

Postby perrym » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:37 am

Hi Deejay,

A wonderful read, thank you!
I started imagining Byron Katie in front of me, looking straight into my eyes with her piercing eyes saying: 'So. "There is a self". Is it true?'
...
There was massive resistance to answering 'No' to the question 'There is a self - is it true?' What felt the most truthful answer I could give was 'No - but not all parts of me know that yet'.
And if she asked the same question now? Or what if she asked "So, 'I cannot possibly have seen through the illusion of self'. Is it true?"

Are there doubts you'd like to raise here?

There may be doubts that are genuine sticking points and need resolving, but if doubts are simply recognised as doubts as they arise, they don't particularly need to be dealt with - just pat them on the head and they run off again :-)

Doubts can often be connected with the return of old habits ... habits built up over a lifetime (lifetimes?) of believing in 'self' do not drop away instantly, so the fact that habits return does not necessarily mean that the truth has not been seen. Given the way that self-based habits tend to return, it is very valuable to be able to recall what has been seen easily ... like a kid who starts to find himself thinking about Santa again out of habit might say to himself "oh, of course, there is no Santa, mum and dad just made him up, nobody could fly around the world in a night" ... how readily can you recall the reality of 'no self'?

x
Perry

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Deejay
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Re: For Deejay

Postby Deejay » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:37 pm

Hi,
Thanks so much for your support.

Quite turbulent, lots of restless energy surging around!
And if she asked the same question now?
I think I would answer in the same way as before: I know it's true, on some levels, but not on all levels. But feels as if the realisation is just starting to permeate more layers.
Or what if she asked "So, 'I cannot possibly have seen through the illusion of self'. Is it true?"
It isn't true. There was a seeing, at that point. But. It felt unintegrated. I looked and couldn't find, so had to say there isn't one, but at same time I don't think that really percolated down through many layers, so after the retreat soon felt a bit in limbo. Even seeing things as just dependent arisings: it was real, but it didn't all compute and coalesce into a full unified realisation, somehow...
Are there doubts you'd like to raise here?
It really feels as if at the moment the doubt has no real content, other than emotional. The fear and doubt feel connected, the fear is under the doubt. I feel the need to come back again to your earlier question re fear as gold, but there's fear of doing that! Also feel I need right space to do that… but there will be soon… mum on the up. Have slightly had the brakes on to stay grounded and deal with stuff.

There is this contentless 'But… but… but…', linked to sense of my conceptual mind being left behind. Decided it might help to give it some 'brain food', so read my brother's New Scientist, 23rd Feb 2013, ' 'The Self:  the greatest trick your mind ever played'. Amazing: couldn't understand it all but really inspiring, and helped a bit with 'but, but, but'.

Another piece fell into place when read in Jowate/Moondog's thread that when stuff is just happening by itself: that 'just happening' IS conditionality. Got that on a deeper level.
Given the way that self-based habits tend to return, it is very valuable to be able to recall what has been seen easily ... how readily can you recall the reality of 'no self'?
I don't really have a strong sense of those self-based habits having decisvely dropped away at all, so it's not really like they are returning! There have been shifts that feel significant, but not dramatic. Eg less striving, less anxiety, less self-judgement. More able to be authentic: more awareness of when something that is about to come out of my mouth is really just trying to get others' approval.
How readily can you recall the reality of 'no self'?
Hardly at all when in the midst of things… bit more readily if I have space to be still, but it's very far from being 'right there'. But there was this flavour to it, something that for ages has been at the heart for me: truthfulness/authenticity. Really felt how the illusion of self isn't just exhausting, its untruthful and inauthentic, and non-self is natural because real. I can still connect in with that flavour. At times the 'visual field' thing reconnects me with the 'space for other' aspect, and brings a sense of quiet astonishment.

But. I looked again at your earlier q:
Doubt ... a resurgence of doubt is an opportunity to witness self view very nakedly .... when doubt arises, it is normally with the voice and feeling of the old self-pattern. Next time the chance arises, investigate closely the cloak of familiar self in which doubt is wrapped, take the opportunity to investigate the qualities of the old self-view, notice how familiarity helps create an illusion of 'real self'.
So I felt into the doubt and sensed it wrapped in the cloak of my self-doubt (in the sense of lack of confidence). Reflected on my deepest self-doubt habit: a sense of 'basic badness'. 'I am bad'. Instantly came: there is no 'I' to be bad. Then I really felt it very clearly, on a deeper level, it somehow all beginning to add up. Really seeing there is no 'I' in there. Tried on the statement 'I am anxious', and it was really just starting to sound wrong. And there was a sense of freedom, of not being bound by what I have thought of as me. Feel need to spend more time with this line of investigation, looking at old self views - and the 'familiarity' thing!

x Deejay

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perrym
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Re: For Deejay

Postby perrym » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:41 am

Hi Deejay,

Glad to hear your mum is on the up. What with your mum's health, this might not be the best time to be working on the illusion of self, but I'll leave that for you to judge .... feel free to put this on hold as and when necessary.

.... but that said, it seems that the process is unfolding anyway :-)
How readily can you recall the reality of 'no self'?
Hardly at all when in the midst of things… bit more readily if I have space to be still, but it's very far from being 'right there'.
I wouldn't worry about 'in the midst of things' for the time being, but where you do have some still space, it is worth revisiting, recalling, retracing, re-seeing ... not so much remembering seeing, but playing around with the kinds of reflection / investigation that resulted in seeing before, retracing the steps that led to seeing. You may well already be doing this, I don't know...

It is possible to pick up some very bad advice in this area, by the way ... It is true that it is unhelpful to hoard memories of seeing, or to try to grasp at ideas inspired by seeing, and in order to avoid this kind of 'ego appropriation', one often hears advice along the lines of 'let go of it, it is in the past now' .... however, it is actually really valuable to seek to re-precipitate the seeing by retracing the steps that have previously led to seeing. Obviously if the motive is grasping, it is not going to work, but if the motive is just to see the truth again, then it will.

If you ignore the seeing that has happened in the past, perhaps out of fear of 'appropriating', then you are throwing away the best guidance as to how to see again. Repeated seeing is essential if the knowledge is to become an intimate, integrated aspect of everyday experience.
'I am bad'. Instantly came: there is no 'I' to be bad. Then I really felt it very clearly, on a deeper level, it somehow all beginning to add up. Really seeing there is no 'I' in there.
Wonderful! (This is the message of Vajrasattva, of course...)
Feel need to spend more time with this line of investigation, looking at old self views - and the 'familiarity' thing!
Seems like a good plan!

x
Perry


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