Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

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Tak
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Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

Postby Tak » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:35 am

Hi,

I'm interested in a guided experience. As a disclaimer, I engaged in this process last year with AdrianC (who doesn't seem to be active anymore according to his profile) but I bogged down. Here's my two previous threads with him: one in the midst of his experiment thread and the other in the 1-1 guided section.
I think what I learned last time was that I think too much and all the thought experiments really bogged me down in philosophy, which in some respects, seems to be the direct opposite of a direct experience. Anyway, if there's anyone free, I'd be most appreciative.

-Mark

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Paulo
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Re: Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

Postby Paulo » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:46 am

Hello Mark, my name is Paulo, and it would be a pleasure to guide you.

A few ground rules -

1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from personal experience only.
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

If you are happy to agree to the above, let me know and we can begin.

Paulo :-)

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Tak
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Re: Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

Postby Tak » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:05 am

yup, i agree to the ground rules.

-Mark

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Re: Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

Postby Paulo » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:04 am

Thank you Mark, and I applaud your return to the forum here - you must really have a big itch you want to scratch!

Thanks also for providing links to your previous threads. I'm not going to look at them however as PAST is PASSED, and it has no bearing on what we will do here - a fresh start, a new beginning!

Firstly, let's look at your CURRENT expectations around the idea of seeing through the illusion of self -

Write down five things you expect from this process.

Write down five ways you think your life will change (if at all).


Once again, thanks for having the courage to jump in a third time (this will be your final time by the way), much love, Paulo :-)

[Note: Any questions I have for you will be in bold text and underlined so they are clear for you]

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Re: Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

Postby Tak » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:12 am

Thank you Mark, and I applaud your return to the forum here - you must really have a big itch you want to scratch!
Apparently I do.
Thanks also for providing links to your previous threads. I'm not going to look at them however as PAST is PASSED, and it has no bearing on what we will do here - a fresh start, a new beginning!

Once again, thanks for having the courage to jump in a third time (this will be your final time by the way), much love, Paulo :-)
I so appreciate your enthusiasm!
Firstly, let's look at your CURRENT expectations around the idea of seeing through the illusion of self -
Write down five things you expect from this process.
Well, perhaps not so co-incidentally, I just read an article about expectations, so that seems a great place to start.

Im going to just list them, even though there's a part of me that "knows" some of there expectations are silly or wishes they weren't there in at all.
  • most obviously (to me) -- im expecting some sort of direct experience , hopefully centered around the realization that there is no self. I'm not really sure what that would even feel like. But i keep comparing the feeling of "there is no self" and "there is no santa claus". I feel differently about those statements, so i seem to be expecting this process to bring that same sort of direct experience / realization
  • i'm expecting to fail at this process. this one surprised me when i stumbled on it earlier today. How sad. :( I'd like to turn that around.
  • I'm expecting the direct experience (1) to be sudden and click/ding/light-bulb-turning-on. This is how people tend to describe "it"
  • I'm expecting to have to "work" at it, tho im not sure exactly what I mean by work .. take a long time on the calendar? involve lots of thinking? lots of observing?
  • I'm expecting to "know it" when it happens. There's so little things that I feel so confident / unshaken about, i think that's one of the attractions of this process for me.. to have a realization that goes deep and feels unshakable.
of course, after writing all those down, i feel like i could counter-argue them all, but i'll resist the urge to over-think / over-process your question.
Write down five ways you think your life will change (if at all).
  • the gateless gatecrashers talks about being in the flow. I think that would be a change in how i live my life .. fighting vs flowing
  • i'd expect that, if not immediately, eventually things might be less stressful. I'm still human so some amount of reaction is expected, but perhaps the self-generated stress can be lessened.
  • i've also heard the phrase "before enlightenment - chop wood. after enlightenment - chop wood" which seems to say that there's not really a change, maybe just a shift in perception.
  • i think my life will be different somehow, and my unspoken assumption is that it would change for the better. i cant imagine wanting it to get worse
my gf and I just talked about this and read my answers with me and offered the opinion that im super-over-thinking this. I feel that's my biggest challenge, i see that i hide behind alot of brain and thoughts and words and concepts. Im not sure where all the fear comes from when talking about this.

-Mark

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Re: Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

Postby Paulo » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:01 pm

Thank you for your response Mark, and your honesty too, a good beginning.

The second question asked you to write down five points. I count four. It’s important to answer all questions in full.

I would ask, that just for now, you put aside these expectations and embrace your actual experience moment to moment. [You can always pick them up again when you see the illusion of self :-) ]
my gf and I just talked about this and read my answers with me and offered the opinion that im super-over-thinking this.
The only way anyone else can help you is to let you do this by yourself, for yourself. I suggest you give your beloved a nice break from all that ‘over thinking’ – that’s what I’m here for after all!
Im not sure where all the fear comes from when talking about this
Talk to me about fear. What do you fear?


Respond when you are ready to share YOUR observations and experience.

Paulo :-)

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Re: Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

Postby Tak » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:04 am

Talk to me about fear. What do you fear?
Paulo :-)
well, I assume you dont mean stuff like spiders, etc. :)

In that context I was talking about being fearful and "hiding" (myself) behind alot of thoughts and words and ideas. I feel that I am afraid to simply state an opinion or concept and say to someone "I believe x", "I am this-way", etc. I feel vulnerable when I reveal a belief or feeling and i think the fear is a fear of speaking plainly and being consequently judged.

At the risk of over-thinking:
Why do I fear being judged? Because i don't want to raise conflict or disagreement.
Why do I not want to raise conflict.. Because...

well, let me pause and confirm this is the track you want me to pursue. I feel like im off in the weeds, cause I feel like im back in "thought" or "therapy" land.

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Re: Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

Postby Paulo » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:43 am

I was talking about being fearful and "hiding" (myself) behind a lot of thoughts and words and ideas.
Sheer poetry Mark, I love it! You’ve hit the nail on the head right there.

Can you see that ‘over thinking’ could also be called ‘hesitation’ – it’s a mechanism that keeps you safe, keeps things at a distance. This works well when you’re faced with an actual danger, it’s actually very useful. But that same mechanism, because it’s automatic, is triggered by perceived dangers as well – here’s a story to illustrate –

A man is walking along a path on a darkened night. He sees in front of him a snake and is startled and afraid to go any further. His pal arrives with a torch and when he shines the light on the snake they see it’s really an old piece of rope. Both friends have a good laugh and continue on their way.

Let’s shine a torch at that fear and hesitation –

What’s behind that fear and hesitation, what is that fear protecting?

Don’t dare think – LOOK

Paulo :-)

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Re: Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

Postby Tak » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:39 am

here’s a story to illustrate –
Cool story, thanks!
Let’s shine a torch at that fear and hesitation –
What’s behind that fear and hesitation, what is that fear protecting?

Don’t dare think – LOOK
Ok, so I looked and led myself down the "therapy" path. After a couple of hops, i wind up at : I'm fearful and hesitant because i crave acceptance.

I'm not entirely sure why I crave this sort of acceptance? Is this the snake-that-really-a-rope i need to look at further?

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Re: Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

Postby Paulo » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:09 am

Mark, we need to reorientate your focus here. It's important that you put aside any 'therapy', 'analysis', or any similar practice while we are engaged in our inquiry here. I know it's tempting, but just for now I would ask that you trust in the process we are engaged in. Therapy and analysis will still be there when you're finished - there's no loss in giving it a try.

Here we are looking at 'what' is behind the experience of fear, not 'why'. This is a common mistake, but only requires a shift in approach to remedy. When we ask 'why' we are thinking about thinking, and end up stuck in thought. When we ask 'what' we look at what IS in direct experience. There is a nice introductory article on direct experience here from Neil - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html

Let us use direct experience to teach us about fear - you may wish to take a quiet moment alone to look at this one – Close your eyes and think of what it is that’s currently activating fear for you. Allow any fear that arises to just be there. Notice where you experience fear in the body – watch it, study it. Let it be there for as long as it’s there.

Share what you experienced.

Paulo :-)

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Re: Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

Postby Tak » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:51 am

Not ready for an answer yet, but wanted to make sure I thanked you for the gentle course adjustment.

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Paulo
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Re: Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

Postby Paulo » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am

Thank you Mark, I look forward to your next response. Paulo ;-)

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Re: Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

Postby Tak » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:46 am

Thank you Mark, I look forward to your next response.
read and thought on that article. Good reading, im not sure how, but i missed that entire section of the site. flagged for future reading.

Anyway, armed with that D.E. article, I sat down to sit with the fear that arose when trying to write down "5 ways I think my life will change".

During this time of trying to think about what (not chasing why), I noticed
  • tightening of my chest, around the heart / abdomen
  • rise in activity of thoughts, mostly very defensive, abrasive
  • what i think of as "cold, hard state" .. a tension in the face, a clenching of the body, as if bracing for impact
  • the emotion of irritation, boredom
  • excessive fidgeting (I can sit quietly for 'meditation', this seemed outside my norm)
Gently tried to bring the focus back. Often found myself drifting away from the supposed topic .. very much akin to meditation and the random thoughts that arise. it felt slippery, like i didn't want to stay too long on the topic.

I will do this again, and try and have the courage to sit and feel what arises, instead of dodging it with thoughts, daydreams or internal emotional outbursts.

But it was quite something to "see" all these things arising, one after another .. how about this? no? that? this one? that? here? for sure *this* will stop the looking.

-Mark

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Re: Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

Postby Paulo » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:07 am

Thank you Mark, glad you enjoyed the article :-)
I will do this again, and try and have the courage to sit and feel what arises,
Certainly, have another go at the exercise - it can help deepen your understanding.
... instead of dodging it with thoughts, daydreams or internal emotional outbursts.
Can you see that 'thoughts, daydreams or internal emotional outbursts' ARE what arises.
But it was quite something to "see" all these things arising, one after another .. how about this? no? that? this one? that? here? for sure *this* will stop the looking.
Excellent observation Mark. You can see that sitting with fear triggered a lot of reactions.

Is there a separate entity there causing these reactions? or do they just arise? Take a good LOOK and share what you find.

Much love, Paulo :-)

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Re: Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

Postby Tak » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:18 am

[quote="Paulo"
Excellent observation Mark. You can see that sitting with fear triggered a lot of reactions.

Is there a separate entity there causing these reactions? or do they just arise? Take a good LOOK and share what you find.
[/quote]

Ah, this one feels like a nice softball. Nothing causing them, they just bubble up, thats what they do.

My meditation practice led me to this before .. my mind is just another tool. It's good a certain things, mostly it's good at generating thought, creativity, focus and narrative. But, *I'm* not the thinker of the thoughts it generates.

It took me a while longer to see that I'm not even the observer of the thoughts or the judger of the thoughts.

My 'problem' (in that I have a problem at all) is that Ive *mentally* seen and understood that my thoughts and emotions just arise without needing a me. But i havent had what I think you're calling a 'direct experience' of this knowledge. I am a PhD in water studies, but I have never gone swimming.

-Mark


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