The story so far...

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Joachim
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The story so far...

Postby Joachim » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:53 pm

...must end here.

Can anyone help me?


/Joachim

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Matt
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Re: The story so far...

Postby Matt » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:47 pm

Hi Joachim!
What are your expectations for "ending the story" and what would that mean for you?

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Matt
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Re: The story so far...

Postby Matt » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:48 pm

Ha, so has 'the story' already ended? — the story of "'I' think the story must end"?
Or perhaps you actually looked at experience and noticed that the storyteller himself never began to exist, so the 'story' is really just thoughts without a thinker, harming no one, not needing to end.

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Joachim
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Re: The story so far...

Postby Joachim » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:38 pm

Hi Matt,

thanks for joining.

Nope, the story hasn't ended yet. There's still an 'I'.
What do I expect from the story being over? I expect the end of doubt. I expect that I really know that there's no 'I'. Right now, I understand it intellectually. But I don't know it, if you know what I mean. There's still doubt.
And the rest? Well, life will go on unabashed, that's for sure. It will be interesting to observe it without an 'I', because this life I call mine is based on a lot of ego. When it suddenly falls away on my side, that will be very interesting.

/Joachim

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Matt
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Re: The story so far...

Postby Matt » Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:31 am

Nope, the story hasn't ended yet. There's still an 'I'.
Okay, good, let's start with that.
I respectfully beg to differ. There is not still an 'I', because there never was an 'I'. The i-story or i-thought never referred to anything real.
But please don't take my word for it. To benefit from our exchange, it's necessary to look very carefully and honestly for yourself. So here's homework #1: Look at what you call 'you', and look intently. What is it really? Is it a real entity? Provide detailed proof of your findings.
Hi Matt,
I expect the end of doubt.
/Joachim
See how this expectation changes (or not) after you have done the above homework as thoroughly as possible. Let me know what happens.

Thanks!
M

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Joachim
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Re: The story so far...

Postby Joachim » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:47 pm

That what I call 'me' is a recurring thought that is fed by memories on the inside and affirmation by others on the outside. It feels like something real but I can't find substance behind it. The harder I try to find it, the more it feels like I'm looking at a black hole, a singularity. It feels like being blind must feel. Like you know there's a stream of data coming from your eyes but the brain can't compute it and therefore you're not seeing anything. Weird.

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Matt
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Re: The story so far...

Postby Matt » Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:49 am

Great work, so far, Joachim!
Stay at it; keep looking, intently, and whenever you can.
And please answer me this: was there ever a self?

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Joachim
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Re: The story so far...

Postby Joachim » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:00 pm

Roger wilco.

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Joachim
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Re: The story so far...

Postby Joachim » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:22 pm

Ok, this took a while because of a lot of emotional shit from the past that had to be cleared, so please bear with me.
During the cleansing it became apparent that there never was a self, only robot-like reactions to input filtered through a mixture of expectations and memories.
I'm still digging...

/Joachim

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Matt
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Re: The story so far...

Postby Matt » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:02 am

Nice! In a lot of cases, the cleaning effect continues for quite a while—no problem. So might as well just let it happen. Of course you see it happens to no one, so it's not like the cleaning that is virtually obstructed by an imagined self. We also have an after-care page on Facebook, which you're invited to when you're confident that the Gate has been crossed.

So here are confirmation questions—seems you may already be done. Whenever the impulse comes, please give us a "rant" or a detailed account detailing 'your' direct experience.

1. (One more time for the record:) is there any real 'I' in any sense, shape or form?

2. Who or what is "looking" at the absence of self?

3. How does the apparent 'I' function?

4. How does it feel to be liberated? ;-)

Thanks a lot. Looking forward to hearing back,
M

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Matt
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Re: The story so far...

Postby Matt » Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:01 am

Oh, Joachim, by the way, don't worry about being "clear of emotional shit"—that's not what I meant by being 'done'. I mean, insofar as you're already glimpsing or seeing the absence of 'I', you're 'done' with the struggle of getting to seeing. That means you're standing at the Gate. So it would a great time to give a 'rant' anytime, based on those four questions. Let's see what you've got.
Best wishes,
M

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Joachim
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Re: The story so far...

Postby Joachim » Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:49 am

1. (One more time for the record:) is there any real 'I' in any sense, shape or form?
There's no real 'I', there's just the idea of an 'I', living through self-perpetuating (pun intended) thoughts.
2. Who or what is "looking" at the absence of self?
There is no looking. There are thoughts coming out of nowhere that contain the idea of some 'thing' which does something called 'looking at the absence of self'.
3. How does the apparent 'I' function?
The 'I' is a function of the mind. Thoughts containing the idea of a seperate self arise. Identification takes place. Memories are built and seized. Like a virus, the idea spreads through the mind, infects it, until the mind 'I'-dentifies itself with it. Then it gets worse.
4. How does it feel to be liberated?
I don't know. I think that I'm still not there.

/J

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Matt
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Re: The story so far...

Postby Matt » Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:02 am

Thanks, Joachim, great answers. And I loved the irony, here:
3. How does the apparent 'I' function?
The 'I' is a function of the mind.....
4. How does it feel to be liberated?
I don't know. I think that I'm still not there.
/J[/quote]
"Thinking that I'm not there" is also just a "function of the mind", no?
It's just thoughts appearing — raw data popping up and disappearing.
Can you find anything in your experience apart from thought-data?
Do thought-data require an 'I' in order to appear?
Do thought-data imply the presence of an 'I'?
Do interpretive thoughts and stories, such as "I'm not there", require an I?
Just because there appears to be a story, is the presence of 'I' implied or indicated?
If there are story-data appearing, seeming to describe "I'm still not there," but there's no story-teller, no 'I' to be "there"....SO WHAT??? ;-))))
Really, what's the big deal?

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Joachim
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Re: The story so far...

Postby Joachim » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:28 pm

Thank you, Matt, I really appreciate your effort.
As you may have noticed, there's a very technically thinking/analytical mind working on my side, which makes it difficult for me to raise the level of my understanding of the matter from "intellectual" to "really knowing". That's what I meant with 'still not there'. I'm still waiting for the big 'AHA'-moment when finally it becomes all clear, as was described in those too many books/webpages I read on the subject. But maybe there won't be such a moment for me, because it's different for everyone, isn't it?
Your remarks and questions strike some cords with me, though...
Can you find anything in your experience apart from thought-data?
Does sensory input count? I think so because that happens without thinking. If I immolate myself I will feel the heat and the pain without having to think about it. But even if that's true: This part of my experience doesn't need an 'I', either.
Do thought-data require an 'I' in order to appear?
As I said, thoughts appear out of nowhere. No 'I' required.
Do thought-data imply the presence of an 'I'?
Nope. It just implies, that the machine is still running.
Do interpretive thoughts and stories, such as "I'm not there", require an I?
No.
Just because there appears to be a story, is the presence of 'I' implied or indicated?
Only as part of the story, not as an author.
If there are story-data appearing, seeming to describe "I'm still not there," but there's no story-teller, no 'I' to be "there"....SO WHAT??? ;-))))
Really, what's the big deal?
Apart from what I said above about the structure of my mind I guess the big deal is the turn the story takes when it isn't bought anymore. You see, I'm very grounded in that story. Yeah, I got the full all-inclusive-package: Studied, good job, wife, kids, dog, house, car, you name it. That would be a pretty lousy mess if I just dropped my story and left all that behind me. Scary, really. Can't I just have the cake and eat it, too? Take a look behind the curtain and still keep my life and secretly relish my insights, knowing that all this is just a mere shadowplay? Use that knowledge to improve my life step by step in a sane manner instead of dropping it all dirty-style?
Is there a way? Has someone accomplished that? And how?

/J

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Matt
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Re: The story so far...

Postby Matt » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:12 am

In my view, "sensations" and "thoughts" are two descriptions of raw, impersonal, non-locatable data.
So perhaps impersonal sensations, thoughts, descriptions, stories, and even the image of the fictional Joachim character, can all continue without a real person behind the scenes. Thoughts continue, without a thinker. What do you say?

One guy on our Facebook site said there's sort of a mathematical formula: add to life the belief in an individual self, and everything is subtracted and depleted. Subtract from 'life' the superimposed belief in the 'individual', and everything is added—wholeness and freedom, etc. So who knows, living free with a cozy story could actually be better than ever.

Who is concerned with protecting a pleasant story (that is happening to nobody)?! :-))
Do you find someone who is afraid to drop a story?
Isn't the idea that "you" have to "drop" or protect a story, just another organic thought appearing out of nowhere?
Rather, by nature, the story is already seen through; there is just life living, impersonally seeing itself. Look and see if this is true or not.
If fear-sensations or fear-thoughts arise, they arise until it subsides. It's completely natural, like the contractions of an animal in labor, or the condensation and vaporization of mist in the air. And fear is already seen through, from the very start. Look, and see if this is true or not.

Who would drop a story?
Who would "get there"?
Can a dividing line between 'non-liberated' and 'liberated' be found anywhere?
What's the truth?
Inquire, look, go for it, simmer for a while if you want, and give us a rant!
Looking forward,
M


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