metta 777 please guide me!

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jaya2012
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metta 777 please guide me!

Postby jaya2012 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:48 pm

HI Metta,
I have been really impressed by your one one guidance of the guys on this site and would like you to guide me. I have been a practising Buddhist for 17 years doing mainly Shamatha practice up until 3 years ago. I took up the noting practice via Daniel Ingram's book and progress took place doing this. My experience now is somewhat different from when i first started meditating but it seems difficult to quantify in some ways. My main hindrance is anxiety and when i first learnt to meditate and practice the spiritual life i became acutely aware of how much i was at war with my self. My emotional life was brought into full view and as things unravel still is. That is i accept that i experience emotions even the tough ones more honestly and openly. Vipassana practice has changed this to the extent where i see volitions emotions and arising and passing away quckly and quicker. There cetainly less mental proliferation around mental states and events and it is like they slide off rather than me furiously trying to chase them off like i used to.
there seems to be a personality quirk of mine that i underplay positive changes and using terms like anatta and discussing terms like this are somehow not done as this might sound rather arrogant. However recently i have become aware that perceptions of phenomena including what i call me has changed and it is this i want to explore and investigate. I agree to daily contact and also being honest even when the questions may seem tough
kind thoughts
Jaya

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Metta777
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Re: metta 777 please guide me!

Postby Metta777 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:42 am

Hi Jaya,

Thank you. Okay, let's get started. First, I am wondering what your expectations might be of the whole process. Is there an idea that life will significantly change in anyway? Next, try to set aside any pre-conceived notions about set spiritual systems or dogma of any kind.
My main hindrance is anxiety and when i first learnt to meditate and practice the spiritual life i became acutely aware of how much i was at war with my self.


What is the trigger of the anxiety? Or is it a general all the time feeling. Many times we are at war with our ego's and self thoughts. Does the ego have to be destroyed? Is there a self to be anxious?
I like to use, clear,direct communication without too much intellectualizing. Meditation is fine to continue. Warmly, Metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: metta 777 please guide me!

Postby jaya2012 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:56 am

HI Metta,
my expectations of this process is simply to talk about and put into words what has changed in my experience of life. i also want to see what views i have that cause me and others to suffer. I must have unconscious expectations but i obviously don't know what they are!
Anxiety is triggered by conditions which i note change quickly. Indeed what i call anxiety is nothing more than a bunch of momentary events. For example i hear difficult words- words register via the ear into the mind. Stomach feels unpleasant then my chest tingles but then another thought unrelated occurs, an awareness of my tongue of face and then something else etc so no anxiety cannot be defined as a resting state as no state is seen or known to rest. The ego as i understand is collection of stories, the mythical dragon than a definable thing. So the very act of war is one mind moment remembering another mind moment with the belief that there is something to get rid off. When i get fooled by anxiety now it is because i do not or cannot investigate the nature of it. When this occurs i believe there is something real that is threatening "me". So there is no self to be destroyed. Even when i investigate what appears to be self in and out of meditation i note the visceral sensations that follow of tongue, lips, forehead, space behind the eyes, then a voice that says "ME,I" however this is soon replaced yet another sensation somewhere else in the body. a bounce is noticed when i think "I" am seeing "that" sensations that make i are quickly followed by sensations that make up that. So quick that it seems i am seeing that. I hope this doesn't sound too confusing or intellectual but i am trying to communcate my experiences as they come to me
kind thoughts
Jaya
Jaya

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Re: metta 777 please guide me!

Postby Metta777 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:40 am

Hi Jaya,

For now try to put aside any beliefs that have been a part of your life for the moment. This is not so much an intellectual process, it is a looking and experiencing. This is temporary,meditation may continue.
anxiety is triggered by conditions which i note change quickly. Indeed what i call anxiety is nothing more than a bunch of momentary events. For example i hear difficult words-
Anxiety is caused by beliefs, mind stories or thoughts about experiences or events. Is there an I or a stable identity that can be anxious? Or is it just the mind? Starting from a young age we are trained to believe labels, ideas, from others, culture, society, parents,etc. But are they true? Or just programming of our minds? Yes, the ego is an illusion that is built by telling ourselves mind stories and believing labels and things we are told by others. Are there any thoughts that came from you originally?
When this occurs i believe there is something real that is threatening "me"
It is only a belief, but is it real? Sometimes children believe there are monsters under their beds at night or in the closet or something. It seems real to them, but when they turn the light on the monster vanishes. Because it was only belief and anxiety caused by that belief. Is there a me to be threatened?

Do sensations have an identity? Or self? Or are they just sensations? Replaced by another sensation.

Warmly, Metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: metta 777 please guide me!

Postby jaya2012 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:51 pm

HI Metta.
yes i agree i will leave aside my beliefs for now!
agrees anxiety is caused by beliefs. i experience anxiety and the anxious to arise together and then change. There is no identity that can be anxious. a momentary awareness of an unpleasant sensation in the stonach then throat then mental image and then something else pass quickly. they is no me holding on to this, indeed the events seems to occur and change by themself. they do their own thing. Even when it seems "I" am reacting that volition is momentary and replaced by yet another sensation or feeling. They seem at times to occur so quickly that i mistakenly assume that is is fixed. much like a sparkler making a ring in air.
Just the mind and programming of this mind is interesting. there is no thing i can find yet under certain conditions habitual responses occurs. But i cannot retrieve them . i need labels to get about in the world but these to solidify objects are not fixed and immovable. these objects it seems i have frozen them and made them static and when they do change and this is noticed there is pain. but of course this set of experiences changes giving rise to more experiences.so these labels prove not to be true since they change .
there are no thought that come from me originally- an image of large expanse of water comes to mind that is infinite and has no source. I notice the more i do look for this source the more pointless it becomes- like a thief investigating his own crime! sorry for the moxed metaphors.
there is no me to be threatened. i liked your monster analogy. sitting with the light off in fear has become habit, but this habit is not continuous or long lasting and is is not me!
sensations just do their own thing, they occur so quickly and replaced by more, so they so not stay long enough to be called self. indeed that which looks at these sensations are also made up of simply more sensations. In this case i label the sensations with a knowledge that they don't last , don't satisfy and so cannot be me
kind thoughts

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jaya2012
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Re: metta 777 please guide me!

Postby jaya2012 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:53 pm

oops forgive the empty quote marks! no pun intended i will get it right next time hope my reply still works. note the 2nd paragraph should say "agreed"!

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Re: metta 777 please guide me!

Postby jaya2012 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:43 pm

Sorry some spelling errors I could not find edit tool to sort my main reply out! Second para should read " I experience anxiety and the anxious mind to arise together"
" I need labels to get about in the world but these solidify objects which then are assumed to be fixed and immovable"
Mixed metaphors not moxed!!
Hope that clears up the mishaps

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Re: metta 777 please guide me!

Postby Metta777 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:36 am

Hello Jaya, That's fine, don't worry, usually I can tell what is meant. :-) I don't know if I mentioned it, but I am in the middle of moving into a new home, so for a few day my replies may come late and my internet connection may be out for a short while while I transfer the service. I might be able to get online via hot spot as there are many here. So don't think that I forgot you. Sorry for the inconvenience.

It seems as if there is an awareness that there is no fixed identity on your part. Is there a you anywhere that you can pin point? Where does your identity reside, or is there one?

Yes, everyone uses labels in the world, and even when awakened it is not that mind stories will not be there. It is just seen for what it really is. Conditioning, and experiences that have been perceived. So what is the Direct Experience of sensations? What is real? Love, Metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: metta 777 please guide me!

Postby jaya2012 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:50 pm

HI Metta,
no problems hope the move goes well. i did read another thread of yours and so assumed that!
Is there a you anywhere that you can pin point? Where does your identity reside, or is there one?
awareness of the object and object itself seem to arise simultaneously. when "me" tries to be pinned down to a particular part of the body or out it seems i am late for the party. That is, i am aware that another sensation and moment of awareness has occured and "that" is not "this" and so forth. identity i have assumed to be in my head area - the brain as i have taken on a label but truely this awareness when looked out ricochets to another part of the body without "me" being in control of this. simply the sensations in the head area i call me do not control the proceeding sensations. i am having an aha moment here as i have never written this and immediately thought "yes yes".
Identity is a thought and thoughts do not "think" the next one. sensations follow each other they do not control each other. no thing is making one follow another.
So what is the Direct Experience of sensations? What is real?
direct experience of sensations is now which keeps shifting in terms of what that is. the flow of sensations that happen by themselves not controlled by a me. when "me" is assumed on closer inspection it "was" not "is" present.
on saying this it still means that "I" can function perfectly well without there being any problems.
kind thoughts
Jaya
getting better with quotations but still no cracked it!!

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Re: metta 777 please guide me!

Postby Metta777 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:24 am

Hi Jaya,

I won't have my internet service on until tues. I am using a house computer which is limited, it is for the use by people who cannot afford one. Nice service they offer. It is late so no one is using it. There are instructions for using the quote function on general board I believe.
Identity is a thought and thoughts do not "think" the next one. sensations follow each other they do not control each other. no thing is making one follow another
Yes, identity is just thoughts , correct. Thyere is nothing permenant or stable that we can call identity. Is awareness limited? If you see a field and a line of trees at the end, you can see where the field ends and the trees begin. When you close your eyes ,can you see an edge to awareness, where it ends? When typing on the keyboard, can you see in awareness where your fingers end and the keyboard begins? Notice I say in awareness.

I will be glad to have my internet service back. Speak with you soon. Warmly, Metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: metta 777 please guide me!

Postby jaya2012 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:45 pm

HI Metta,
thanks for keeping up with me as best you can i really appreciate it!
Is awareness limited? If you see a field and a line of trees at the end, you can see where the field ends and the trees begin. When you close your eyes ,can you see an edge to awareness, where it ends?
hmmm i see that what object is made of aware of changes. Given you example here in awareness i trees are seen then a road but may be then a thought is noticed or the feel of the hand on steering wheel.
awareness seems to have no edge it seems to that "this field" appears and disappears to show up somewhere else. The field of awareness is itself like taking a camera snap and then another. in each case the field is wrongly assumed to be static . so when the fingers type on the keyboard in one moment i feel fingers, then keyboard but not both sensations at the same time. it is very quick and without examining this "in awareness" events or sensations can be wrongly felt to occur at the same time rather than quickly in succession.
When typing on the keyboard, can you see in awareness where your fingers end and the keyboard begins? Notice I say in awareness.
i feel i must say more here to make sure i have answered this. when you say- can you see?, feeling of keyboard, sensation of finger tip and then another prehaps are all separate events which mesh so closely together to create illusion of a field.
kind thoughts
Jaya

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Re: metta 777 please guide me!

Postby Metta777 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:00 am

Hi Jaya,

Can you see that awareness is seamless? When looking in awareness there is no separation between keyboard and fingers is there?
awareness seems to have no edge i
Exactly.

Thoughts arise, then awareness, but are thoughts self or just thoughts which come into being and then disappear. Are labels self? Since a child many labels are given to each person, someone may say, this is a bad person? But can a person be bad 100% of the time? Then the labels mean nothing. so this cannot be self right? So how is self identified? where is it? There are so many labels, then another says to the same person he or she is good, before they were bad, how can this be true? So when you think of it how can thoughts or labels be yourself? What exists? Now? Warmly, metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: metta 777 please guide me!

Postby jaya2012 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:54 am

HI Metta,
Are labels self?
i think i may be have been one step ahead here! this very concept crossed my mind last week so i played about in one instance( other readers take care when trying this at home!!) i pronounced myself as "very wopnderful" seing if i could get this label to stick. apart from a baffled person across me i noticed that it was like trying to paint air. The label if was true just couldn't stick. that time quickly moved on very quickly and it seemed absurd to have tried but i knew this might the case and that was the point.
so this cannot be self right? So how is self identified? where is it?
in my life i have attached bundles of labels which are really previously memories of past habits which i think must be me. Now i see that even these memories disappear and there is no label which accurately describes my current changing, not controlled by me experience. That's why i think i settle on a name- for convienience but that has fooled me in to seeing me as fixed.
What exists? Now?
what exists now bringing out earlier discussion together is an awareness which is not fixed and is not a field which is not me that moves about with the hurling swirling sensations that are not controlled by an entity that i can call me.
i must add that pleasant habits which are bundles of sensation seem attractive but I" cannot make these last, in the same way unpleasant habits which are also bundles cannot be made to go away by a me. in reality though i like praise and dislike blame but these things happen against my liking or disliking and are sadly and certainly not controlled by a self. If they were i wouldn't have bother starting to practise any kind of spiritual life.
kind thoughts
Jaya
take the above in a jovial jokey way- this process is certainly freieng up energy for me(from me!!) thank you!

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Re: metta 777 please guide me!

Postby Metta777 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:50 am

Hi Jaya,

This is fine, humor is good. Laughter is fine medicine.
in my life i have attached bundles of labels which are really previously memories of past habits which i think must be me. Now i see that even these memories disappear and there is no label which accurately describes my current changing, not controlled by me experience. That's why i think i settle on a name- for convienience but that has fooled me in to seeing me as fixed.
Even a name is just a label, part of life long programming, of society, culture, family. Thoughts arise and disappear, so they cannot be self. Beliefs are strings of thoughts put together in a structure, they change or become irrelevant. So they cannot be self either. If there was a self it must be a fixed, stable entity, can you find that? The body cannot be self, can it? There will be a time to drop the body. Also, temporary.
Yes, for ease of communication we use names, we use I, you, we, etc. but it is merely for that.
i must add that pleasant habits which are bundles of sensation seem attractive but I" cannot make these last, in the same way unpleasant habits which are also bundles cannot be made to go away by a me. in reality though i like praise and dislike blame but these things happen against my liking or disliking and are sadly and certainly not controlled by a self.
Habits are also programming, like giving treats to teach an animal a trick. they will do it because they like the treat only. It has no meaning. Thinking about programming, there is no doer or control is there? Reality? Who is the I that likes praise? Who is the self who dislikes blame? I don't see any self involved, do you?
Who is this self who practices a spiritual life? What is that? Love, metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: metta 777 please guide me!

Postby jaya2012 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:38 am

HI Metta,
The body cannot be self, can it?
no it changes and does what it wants gets colds, wrinkles, ages diseases and stops functioning in the end. if body was self it could be controlled but it cannot be. when i cut my hair, lose teeth, and fingernails i am not shedding the self.
there is no doer or control is there? Reality? Who is the I that likes praise? Who is the self who dislikes blame? I don't see any self involved, do you?
no the me who likes praise doesn't exist, indeed as you said last time, one minure good then bad just labels cannot accurately describe and so cannot be relied upon. praise is pleasant mind moment which fades there is no self to attach to this - none that i can find in my experience when i look. the memory of pleasant praise also arises and fades and this too is not permanent. in the grasping only the grapsing!
Who is this self who practices a spiritual life? What is that?
i knew this would get challenged but all the same at that point i wanted to write it. The "me now" cannot understand why i did that! again there is no fixed object or experience that can called spiritual life nor a fixed self that experience just an object. indeed what i labelled spiritual life 1year ago from 10 years ago is not the same. It a label I lazily used to describe a changing process which is happening to changing process- ie a spiritual life happening to Jaya.
kind thoughts
Jaya


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