Making the leap

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Indrek
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Making the leap

Postby Indrek » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:53 am

Hello, world.

I've been procrastinating for far too long, ignoring the soft whisper of something sweet inside as it's been saying, "Go into the void."
I thought I knew what that meant. I found this forum, read the free PDF and I realized I knew nothing.

In that state of calmness I realized, I felt my Self as if I was still a baby trying to gain attention from my mother and I even felt envy at my father. As a "grown-up", the ways in which I sought it were just a bit more refined, but the underlying motivation was still the same. Give me attention, give me warmth, give me physical stimulation. Yesterday was the first time that I started taking Freud's ideas seriously.
But I am ready to let go of even that.

the "I" considers it to be male, 23-years old, an Estonian, a psychology student and with a penchant for channeling what it feels is it's Higher Self.

I ask for guidance.
I am ready to step into the void.

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richardcooper2k
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Re: Making the leap

Postby richardcooper2k » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:04 pm

Hello Indrek,
Please review this first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too. Please read.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

A few agreements before we can begin:

1. You agree to try post at least every day.

2. I will post questions. Do not attempt to answer them with thoughts or memories or stories about your personal life dramas. Set reasoning, computing and trying to understand, aside. Instead, communicate to me the response that you “directly experience” (by “direct experience” we refer to The moment to moment felt experience, or what’s happening right now, conscious knowing.) Here is an article by Rupert Spira on “direct experience”: http://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read ... l_there_is
This is another article on direct experience http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... ce-de.html
IOW, do not tell me what you “think” or “believe” or heard in a talk or read about. The questions are to position you to SEE, to DISCOVER, to RECOGNISE something for yourself, without mental stories.

3. When you answer, you answer with all the honesty you can muster.
Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

5. Do not expect a transfer of knowledge. We are not teachers.

6. Please learn to use the quote function.

Do you agree to the above?

With warmth, Richard

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Indrek
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Re: Making the leap

Postby Indrek » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:33 pm

I wholeheartedly agree to all of the agreements :)

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richardcooper2k
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Re: Making the leap

Postby richardcooper2k » Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:11 am

That's fantastic Indrek :-)

In your first post you said you'd realized you know nothing. This is a great start as when we think we know what we are looking for it can get in the way of "seeing" what is going on.

So tell me, do you have any expectations about this conversation and where it may lead ?
For instance what "the void" is ?
If there are any expectations make a list

Richard

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Indrek
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Re: Making the leap

Postby Indrek » Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:13 pm

Expectations...

What I am not that fond of with the whole seeing thing is that to this point the understanding has always faded somewhat... or more than somewhat. The Self has always remained in control. I've always fallen back into the Dream again.

The I would like there to be expectations. It would like for this to have a certain place where it would lead. The I likes certainty.
The only expectation that "I" have at the moment, though, is that I will succeed... whatever it may be that I succeed in. I guess what I am looking forward to would also fall under expectation, so I am very much looking forward to life without NEED, which at the moment seems like the main thing fueling the Self to do anything. In that sense I look forward to sensing true, motivation coming from the essence of Life - that spark I can instinctively sense, but also something that the I has buried somewhere deep - in stead of motivation arising from the unmet needs of the I-concept I have at the moment.

As I had my first realization of no-self, I realized that my previous conception of the Void might have been entirely mistaken, since it was still based in the Self. Of having the self be as quiet as possible, not realizing that there was no such thing!

So my expectations:

1) That I will succeed [which I now realize is sort of redundant, since success or failure is only in the self]
2) Releasing all NEED
3) Realizing the already-connectedness to the source of all Life

Hmm... but expectation, the very existence of that concept in of itself seems to be something inherent to the Self. So, for example, the 3rd point of realizing the already-connectedness is something that I automatically want to do from within the Self, but that seems to be impossible, since the Self feels as if its very nature is separation.
I can feel the Self wanting to engage in it's automatic thinking. I really have to stop and stay in the present moment so that I can experience directly. Experience something that isn't immediately churned through the regurgitational process of past programming that the Self has acquired.

The I would like me to believe that I have already seen the no-self. This just shows me I am still attached to the Self. Can't see no-self from within self.

Thank you for the articles from "Rupert Spira"and thank "you" for choosing to guide "me" :)
Damn, using quotation marks on everything makes it all so funny!

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richardcooper2k
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Re: Making the leap

Postby richardcooper2k » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:33 pm

Hi Indrek

Wow, it sounds to me that you have already done some "looking" and "seeing" rather than relying on thoughts and thinking which are not reliable for our purposes here. The tendency is for us to remember these times and think we understand what we have seen. Even the memory is just a thought and not actually the experience - so we won't actually be "seeing" anything. Even after passing through the gate this is still an easy trap to fall into. This is why understanding appears to fade like you say - because we have started looking in the wrong place. Hope this makes sense.

Your expectations all seem reasonable but i would ask you to put them aside for now and look with an open mind. I expect you can see why this might help

So lets jump straight in - what comes up if i say:

"there is no separate entity of self and there never was" ?

Please include any emotional response as well if one is noticed

Richard

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Indrek
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Re: Making the leap

Postby Indrek » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:59 pm

Well, to be totally honest, the first reaction I feel inside is an angry voice telling you, "F**k you!"

Mind you, reading this post comes right after 3 hours of meditation and energy practice, in which "the voice" trying to make me back down and return to my comfort zone was angered quite a bit by the few times that I almost flew the coop, sort of say. I felt that anger, hatred even, toward the man who guided us. I allowed it to be and continued with what I was doing.

So lets jump straight in - what comes up if i say:

"there is no separate entity of self and there never was" ?

Please include any emotional response as well if one is noticed
What it feels like is this:
"How DARE you say that I don't exist? I'm here, aren't I?!" [the Self says..]
"Even if you try, you'll never get rid of me."
"I'll just f**k you (me) up if you try."

Looks like my Self likes the I'm-gonna-break-your-arm type of argumentation to keep me, it (?) in line.

And then the much more insidious,
"You'll never be able to do it."
"You KNOW you're not good enough."
"You KNOW you deserve your life as it is" (and this kind of life only)

Which saddens me, because I would like to be friends with the Self and see it flourish and be strong and live life to the fullest, but it feels like all it wants to do is keep me.. us (?).. I don't even know anymore.. in a safe box built of self-dispowering beliefs forever.



Thank you for pointing out that the past in of itself is just a thought. I've been trying to figure out what the past is for a while now. It is freeing to see that when I am thinking of the past or acting out of past experience, I cannot be in the present, I will not be experiencing directly, only the thought of past.

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richardcooper2k
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Re: Making the leap

Postby richardcooper2k » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:08 am

It's good you see that about the past Indrek - can you see the same applies to the future ?

Your honesty about the reaction to the statement about the sense of self is great !

So what we need to do now is look more closely at this emotional response. Notice the thoughts are not it. They just come spinning off.
This anger/fear is your friend. It is no threat. Feel where it is in the body. Let it be. Don't try to change it. Respect it. Bow to it. Love it. Embrace it. When there is a full acceptance look behind it. What do you find ?

If it is too intense to do this go for a walk in nature first. Or something else that will help you feel comfortable in your own skin.

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Indrek
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Re: Making the leap

Postby Indrek » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:27 am

I am comfortable in my own skin. Couldn't have said that 4 months ago, but now I am.

I've been feeling it very strongly since I had that first experience with reading the free PDF before I decided to ask for guidance here.
It was then, and the realization has deepened, that I saw and felt how almost every (I say almost every, because I don't want to admit that it might be all of it) bit of motivation I have is based out of a need for my mother's care and attention.
I can feel myself as a baby still craving for attention, needing it desperately. Then comes the anger that the care is not given. Then the sadness. Then the envy and jealousy that someone else receives it besides myself.

What is behind all of the emotions? A baby with insatiable and unmeetable needs.

And I feel as if it is not the anger, jealousy, sadness or attention-craving that is the sustaining issue. The I could let go of all of that without much fuss if it didn't feel it would then have to deal with all the loneliness that it feels. And I believe, beneath that... behind layers of denial.. the POSSIBILITY of death.. of simply ceasing to be.



My current plan of resolution would be holotropic breathing combined with energy work to go through a rebirthing process.

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Indrek
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Re: Making the leap

Postby Indrek » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:36 am

It is more difficult to see the same about the future - that it's only a thought - for some reason, even though I feel like it shouldn't.
It feels like the future is a fleeting thing, unattainable even, full of uncertainty, especially about the possibility of death or moving closer to it (rejection, not being acknowledged or liked are all steps toward death, that is why they cause anxiety for the I). Thus a lot of suffering.
And it feels as if the past is stuck within me and unattainable because it has already passed, solidified into concrete and unchangeable. Thus suffering.

Although I know that we can change, rewrite the past, because I've done it numerous times. It just seems as if I've delved a lot closer to the core that holds each and every strand of anxiety and fear stuck in the Self.

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richardcooper2k
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Re: Making the leap

Postby richardcooper2k » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:41 am

It is more difficult to see the same about the future - that it's only a thought - for some reason, even though I feel like it shouldn't.
It feels like the future is a fleeting thing, unattainable even, full of uncertainty, especially about the possibility of death or moving closer to it (rejection, not being acknowledged or liked are all steps toward death, that is why they cause anxiety for the I). Thus a lot of suffering.
And it feels as if the past is stuck within me and unattainable because it has already passed, solidified into concrete and unchangeable. Thus suffering.

Although I know that we can change, rewrite the past, because I've done it numerous times. It just seems as if I've delved a lot closer to the core that holds each and every strand of anxiety and fear stuck in the Self.
Yes, you are right, future and past are unattainable as all we have access to is our present experience. But sometimes we get caught up in thoughts - thinking they are the future or past or that they carry us there somehow. But actually we are still here in the present. Where else could we be ?

So rewriting the past must be replacing one story with another.

Isn't death just a story about the future ? an imaginary thing ?

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richardcooper2k
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Re: Making the leap

Postby richardcooper2k » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:56 am

I am comfortable in my own skin. Couldn't have said that 4 months ago, but now I am.

I've been feeling it very strongly since I had that first experience with reading the free PDF before I decided to ask for guidance here.
It was then, and the realization has deepened, that I saw and felt how almost every (I say almost every, because I don't want to admit that it might be all of it) bit of motivation I have is based out of a need for my mother's care and attention.
I can feel myself as a baby still craving for attention, needing it desperately. Then comes the anger that the care is not given. Then the sadness. Then the envy and jealousy that someone else receives it besides myself.

What is behind all of the emotions? A baby with insatiable and unmeetable needs.

And I feel as if it is not the anger, jealousy, sadness or attention-craving that is the sustaining issue. The I could let go of all of that without much fuss if it didn't feel it would then have to deal with all the loneliness that it feels. And I believe, beneath that... behind layers of denial.. the POSSIBILITY of death.. of simply ceasing to be.



My current plan of resolution would be holotropic breathing combined with energy work to go through a rebirthing process.
Indrek, your honest answers are very helpful. We are making progress. Fear and thoughts about death often come up in this process. They are great teachers we can learn a lot from.

You could look at fear as a natural mechanism that has come about through evolution. It protects the body and keeps it safe and out of danger. This is a good thing.

In this process we are seeing through an illusion. There is nothing that dies or is killed. Nothing is lost or ceases. We are just looking for a clearer seeing of what is already there.

So talk to fear...befriend it...what is that it wants to tell you today ? don't assume you know...let it speak..you become very quite and listen.. let me know what comes up.

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Indrek
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Re: Making the leap

Postby Indrek » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:03 am


Yes, you are right, future and past are unattainable as all we have access to is our present experience. But sometimes we get caught up in thoughts - thinking they are the future or past or that they carry us there somehow. But actually we are still here in the present. Where else could we be ?

So rewriting the past must be replacing one story with another.

Isn't death just a story about the future ? an imaginary thing ?
It becomes sort of obvious that the only place/time we could possibly be in is the now. That the past and future are only emulations that we create within the now that separates us from the now.
Yet the inherent principle of the Self of turning everything into a story and creating the sense of continuity just feels so goddamn real at the moment.
I don't care about understanding something if I don't experience it. If it doesn't become a part of my experiential reality. Which, I guess, means whether I am willing to let go and see that thing from the no-Self perspective, as well. Or not.
This is important, I feel... to understand that my experience of no-Self is fragmented. With certain things I can see the difference between Self and no-Self, with other things I can't yet.

There is no reason for death not to be just another story. Just an imaginary thing. Yet the Self would like to keep itself attached to that notion because it feels the threat of death will keep it safer, because otherwise I might go putting my nose in something that it considers to be dangerous, like meditating until I leave my physical body.
I think I actually consider that the most dangerous possibility of my life.
And yet, it is exactly what I want to do the most.
Funny how the things I want to do the most are the ones shrouded in the greatest fear.

If I continue to not do it, I don't think I will ever be satisfied with my life.
Yet I don't do it... just because I feel anxiety about it and several convenient excuses pop into the mind for why I shouldn't.

"You don't have the time for it. You should really get some sleep. You've got other things to do! What if you waste all of that time and nothing happens? What if you fail?"

But I am getting sidetracked by the Self again ....

I want to believe that death is just an idea but I can't bring myself to accept that. (FFS, getting sidetracked into the Self again :D)

Lets try that one again...
Tomorrow... since it's very late already.

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richardcooper2k
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Re: Making the leap

Postby richardcooper2k » Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:17 am

Indrek, Indrek, you are giving yourself such a hard time (can you see the contradiction in this - who is giving who)

I am visiting family this weekend so have limited time to respond as there are internet problems here

You will not find any answers to this by thinking (as you have quite correctly realized)

You have to look into experience

Fear has come up so you need to look into this - but don't worry it is your friend really and can't hurt you

Embrace fear with your heart and look and see what it really is, what is there ?

What is it ? (in direct experience, not going in thought loops)

What can you find ?

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Indrek
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Re: Making the leap

Postby Indrek » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:31 pm

Sorry for not replying sooner. Been really busy and I've also taken several times to look at what I can see behind fear.

I don't see anything. I don't see fear as existing outside of the Self. It is something inherent to Self.
And it is really nothing but a way of making me stay in certain thought loops and also the result of them. So it's a never ending circle in that sense, once a loop is in place.


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