I would like to speak with a guide.

[dkhaliel]

My name is Dave.

I consider myself a seeker of myself even though I have never done any formal training. I have read a number of books, the most influential on me being Douglas Harding's "On Having No Head".

From using some of his techniques I can "see" this no-thing out of which thoughts arise. From my point of view I appear to me to be the self-aware universe experiencing itself through the window of my body/mind.

I can understand this and sometimes see it but I cannot be it, at least for more than just a few seconds.

I don't know if that makes any sense but it is the best way I can describe where I am right now.

Thanks for your help and guidance.

[Paulo]

Hello, my name is Paulo, and it would be my pleasure to guide you.

A few ground rules -

1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

If you are happy to agree to the above, let me know and we can proceed.

Paulo :-)

[dkhaliel]

I understand and agree Paulo.

Thank you.

[Paulo]

That's wonderful Dave, so let us begin -

What are your expectations of the process, and the end goal, of seeing that a seperate self is an illusion?


Please answer all questions in as much detail as you can, drawing only on your own experience - really let it all out!

Two items that may help you -

1). Learn to use the quote function on this forum (it makes things so much easier for you when replying) -
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

2). If you haven't read it already, I would encourage you to read Gateless Gatecrashers (although your expereince will be your own, it will help orientate you to what goes on here) -
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/PDF/ ... ashers.pdf

Paulo :-)

[dkhaliel]

If you haven't read it already, I would encourage you to read Gateless Gatecrashers (although your expereince will be your own, it will help orientate you to what goes on here) -

I started a few days ago and am about halfway through.

What are your expectations of the process, and the end goal, of seeing that a seperate self is an illusion?

Please answer all questions in as much detail as you can, drawing only on your own experience - really let it all out!

From my reading of Gatecrashers I expect the process will require work and will be confusing at times. The ultimate end goal is to find that love, peace and tranquility of mind that others seem to find and write about when they find out who or what they really are or become enlightened or reach satori or step through the Gate or whatever it is that happens when the seekers I have read about find what they seek.

[Paulo]

From my reading of Gatecrashers I expect the process will require work and will be confusing at times. The ultimate end goal is to find that love, peace and tranquility of mind that others seem to find and write about when they find out who or what they really are or become enlightened or reach satori or step through the Gate or whatever it is that happens when the seekers I have read about find what they seek.

Very well written Dave, a good beginning.

I would ask, that just for now, you put aside these expectations and embrace your actual experience moment to moment. [You can always pick them up again when you see the illusion of self :-) ]

In your first posting you described yourself as a seeker -

What is it that is seeking?

Take some time and take a good long look. Really look Dave, and respond when you are ready to share your observations and experience.

Paulo :-)

[dkhaliel]

In your first posting you described yourself as a seeker -

What is it that is seeking?

Take some time and take a good long look. Really look Dave, and respond when you are ready to share your observations and experience.

Yep. That is the question at the heart of the conundrum all right! OK. Here goes.

When I look as deeply as I can I see aware creation using my brain to try to understand itself.

What is aware? Seems to be something. Not sure what. Best I can come up with is that creation is aware and is trying to use that awareness to examine itself through me (and everyone else and maybe everything else, but I do not know about that).

I think that that which is seeking (consciousness/awareness/beingness?), in me and probably humans in general, requires a brain. Seeker appears (works through/needs) a brain. I say this because when I have been under anesthesia (3 times) and when I have been knocked unconscious (1 time) consciousness, seeker and seeking disappeared, only to reappear seemingly out of nowhere when my brain switched on again.

Also, no brain in the chair next to me or in a cubic foot of air suspended in the middle of my room here and apparently no consciousness/awareness/seeking/observing from those or their like.

As deeply as I can penetrate reality at the moment this is what I see when I look.

[Paulo]

Nice inquiry Dave, that’s exactly the way to do it :-)

When I look as deeply as I can I see aware creation using my brain to try to understand itself.

If there is in fact something called ‘aware creation’ using ‘your’ brain to try to understand itself, where are ‘you’ when all this is happening?

I liked your observation about consciousness not being there when under anaesthesia. So I’m giving you a bonus practical exercise today. It will help you look at ‘seeking’ from a different angle.

Choose an object you know to be in another room. Go find it.

During this process observe what it is that’s seeking the object. Look at your direct experience of the exercise – what’s happening physically (movement, sensations), mentally (thoughts, images, scenarios), emotionally (feelings). Feel free to share anything else about the experience you notice and report back.

Have fun with that one Dave,

Paulo.

[dkhaliel]

Cannot post today Paulo, having computer issues. Will try to be back up & running tomorrow. Sorry

Dave

[Paulo]

That's not a problem, thanks for letting me know - good attitude!

Keep the inquiry going offline, and you can update me on your progress when those PC problems have been sorted.

Cheers, Paulo ;-)

[dkhaliel]

If there is in fact something called ‘aware creation’ using ‘your’ brain to try to understand itself, where are ‘you’ when all this is happening?

While 'looking' i cannot see myself. But conceptually I think that we are all 'awareness' or 'consciousness' or 'being'. What makes me me is consciousnesses is looking at creation out of the window of my brain and what makes Paulo Paulo is that SAME CONSCIOUSNESS but it is looking at creation through the window of Paulo's brain. No, I cannot see 'me' in all of this. These are merely the terms I have strung together to try to help me conceptualize reality.

Just as Dagwood Bumstead can never understand the artist ,Chick Young, who created him, so I believe we (as humans) can never truly understand this creation we find ourselves in. The Part can never fully grasp The Whole.

But hey, a dude's gotta try, yo.

Choose an object you know to be in another room. Go find it.

During this process observe what it is that’s seeking the object. Look at your direct experience of the exercise – what’s happening physically (movement, sensations), mentally (thoughts, images, scenarios), emotionally (feelings). Feel free to share anything else about the experience you notice and report back.

Have fun with that one Dave,

OK. Lot of stuff to take in. Stream of consciousness here. maybe take notes as I go.

'Wonder why I have to go into another room? is this a SPECIAL test. will i need a SPECIAL answer? too new at this, will probably not find the special answer. walking down the hall now. see through the big eye in my head that my legs and body are moving toward my destination. or the hallway and my destination is moving past me. Nah. I am moving. see my hand reach out of space and pick up stuffed snowman (my destination). watch my thoughts about all of this and notice that when I watch a given thought that seems generate another thought about me just having watched that thought. Not always, but thoughts often create their own children.

Not many (any) particular emotions right now. emotions arise less frequently in me than thoughts, but they hang around longer and they bring their own thought-bundle with them. emotions seem to be able to feed and live on some energy source that thoughts do not have.

There are two cats lying on the bed, sleeping. thoughts arise regarding the anesthesia I spoke of. Oddly, the part where I 'winked back in' to existence was much more abrupt and memorable than the part where I 'winked out' of existence.

[Paulo]

Very good Dave, you're getting more focused now, good work!! It may seem there's a lot today, but if you look closely there really is only one question, posed in different ways. Read the posting all the way through - if you can answer one question you can answer all.

While 'looking' i cannot see myself.

Would something that is real disappear when you just looked at it? (no need to answer that BTW)

No, I cannot see 'me' in all of this. These are merely the terms I have strung together to try to help me conceptualize reality.

Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Just as Dagwood Bumstead can never understand the artist ,Chick Young, who created him, so I believe we (as humans) can never truly understand this creation we find ourselves in. The Part can never fully grasp The Whole.

Let’s look at that for a moment. Which of the following (if any) is real –

a) Dagwood Bumstead
b) Dave
c) Chick Young

walking down the hall now. see through the big eye in my head that my legs and body are moving toward my destination. or the hallway and my destination is moving past me. Nah. I am moving. see my hand reach out of space and pick up stuffed snowman (my destination).

Is there a ‘you’ coordinating every movement of the body, or is the body just moving?

watch my thoughts about all of this and notice that when I watch a given thought that seems generate another thought about me just having watched that thought. Not always, but thoughts often create their own children.

Is there a ‘you’ creating these thoughts, or are they just arising?

Consider as part of this the choice of ‘stuffed snowman’ as destination in the exercise. Of all the objects in the room did 'you' choose that object, or did the thought/image/feeling just arise. Again, is there a ‘you’ who chose ‘stuffed snowman’.

There are two cats lying on the bed, sleeping.

Beautiful - they totally get it Dave :-)

[dkhaliel]

Is there a ‘you’ coordinating every movement of the body, or is the body just moving?

Is there a ‘you’ creating these thoughts, or are they just arising?

Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is understanding here that 'I' am neither the thoughts or the body but there is no understanding that 'I' am nothing. Indescribable and invisible though 'I' may be, something here is aware of thought. Something somethings something here and the 'you something' there receive a message from the 'me something here.

Microwaves cannot be seen but they cook my food.

Something that exists does 'me' things. I am that.

[Paulo]

Lots of ‘things’ in your last response – from the ‘I’ not being a no-thing to it being a some-thing.

So what is a ‘thing’? - Looking at the word ‘thing’ in Webster’s dictionary I found – ‘an object or entity not precisely designated or capable of being designated’. If ‘I’ is an object or entity, surely it will be easy for us to lay our hands on it, right?

Let’s repurpose our multi-choice quiz from before, to look at what a ‘thing’ is. Which of the following (if any) is a ‘thing’ –

a) Dagwood Bumstead – An imaginary character in a story, not a ‘thing’.
b) Postal service – A label used for communication, not a ‘thing’.
c) Computer – A machine used to process information, a thing. You can point to it, feel it, and take it from place to place.

Which of the above choices do you see as being most similar to this supposed ‘thing’ called ‘I’?

Microwaves cannot be seen but they cook my food.

Although microwaves cannot be seen, they CAN be detected and measured using appropriate instruments. They exist and are real.

Consider what would happen if we took the word ‘me’ out of that sentence. Now it becomes - ‘Microwaves cannot be seen but they cook food’.

Would that food be any less cooked without ‘me’ in there?

Paulo :-)

[dkhaliel]

a) Dagwood Bumstead – An imaginary character in a story, not a ‘thing’.
b) Postal service – A label used for communication, not a ‘thing’.
c) Computer – A machine used to process information, a thing. You can point to it, feel it, and take it from place to place.

Which of the above choices do you see as being most similar to this supposed ‘thing’ called ‘I’?

Postal service is most similar to 'I'. A label used for communicating about something.

WOW! While thinking about the above a series of thoughts arose. I am afraid of their not being an 'I' because I am afraid of losing control of my life as I have so far crafted it. I am fearful of having to do what I do not want to do (whatever that may be). I DEMAND control! Or at least I DEMAND the feeling of having control! The fear DEMANDS at least the belief of having control.

I am also fearful of losing this individual consciousness that I now have in my brain. I want a truth that provides for an eternal individual consciousness.

OK. Exposing myself there. Warts and all.

Would that food be any less cooked without ‘me’ in there?

Nope. No me necessary there.