Ready to see the Self for what it is

[Enough]

Hello! I'd like to resolve this once and for all. Would greatly appreciate anyone who could help me through.

[dreamer]

Hi Enough!

Found you :)

Please give a short introduction where you are at in this matter.

greetings Vivi

[Enough]

Haha great! Thank you!

My name is Michael. I've seen that there's no such thing as a 'self' in reality. It's sort of like being in a dream.. Thinking I am the main character, then waking up to realize that everything is the dream.

At least, that's how I've understood it intellectually. The "I" thoughts still keep coming up, the sense of self is still there. If I look for the self, I can't find it, but it seems like the belief is still there.

[dreamer]

Hello Michael!

Observe thoughts. What are they, where do they come from, where do they go? Can thoughts be controlled? Can you choose to think something specific? can you stop thoughts? Are you the thinker of thoughts?

Warm regards Vivi

[Enough]

Observe thoughts. What are they

Usually they're spoken as a voice, words being heard. As I'm observing them, they sort of fall apart. Like the words are happening somewhat sporadically, and I'm not understanding the meaning but they're happening anyways. But they also can form sentences, like what I'm typing to you right now.

where do they come from, where do they go?

It's hard to tell, but it seems like they just come out of nowhere. In response to the current situation. Like, I read your question, then the thought came up "where do thoughts come from?" "hmm.. where DO they come from? I need to figure this out." Less cohesive than that though. I notice when they start, it's like they're trying to continue and make a story to answer the question, but if I'm trying to observe where they're coming from, the thought doesn't finish so I don't have an answer.

Can thoughts be controlled? Can you choose to think something specific?

Usually it's assumed that they're being controlled by "me", but when I actually look to see if I can control thoughts, they're happening by themselves. THEN the thought can come up afterwards about who or what was responsible for creating the thought.

can you stop thoughts?

It seems like thoughts can be stopped halfway by having an intention to stop thinking. But the idea that it's me doing it is another thought. It's also hard to say if there's such a thing as "halfway" through a thought.

Are you the thinker of thoughts?

The way it looks, they happen on their own.. then sometimes a voice says "that's me!" Which is itself another thought about the thought.

[dreamer]

Hi Enough

Good!

Look at eating, doing the dishes, going for a walk or anything else happening during the day. Can you find any 'I' doing anything? If yes, in what way? If no what then is happening?

Greetings Vivi

[Enough]

Look at eating, doing the dishes, going for a walk or anything else happening during the day. Can you find any 'I' doing anything? If yes, in what way? If no what then is happening?

Tried this with reading your post. Noticed first that reading was happening, the words were being heard in my head.. No self there.. Then observed the feeling of aliveness in my body, "is that me?" .. came up in my head.. then a bunch of thoughts debating whether it is "me" or not.

Trying it with breathing deeply in and out. There's this sense of "me" being the one who is willing the body to inhale and exhale deeply. First noticing that sense of control- breathing in, breathing out.. then a voice says "that's me!"

So I guess it's just the sense of control that seems to be there. If I look for the self, there's just that voice that says "that's me!" or "is that me?" in reference to the sense.

To answer your question, it seems like everything is happening by itself. Saying "I" am the one responsible only happens sometimes in response to the situation.

[dreamer]

Hi Enough

Good!

Now look at sensations - sit down, close eyes and look without taking thoughts into account - what are sensations? Are they in the body, do they belong to body, is it your body or a body?

Greetings Vivi

[Enough]

what are sensations?

Without thoughts they seem hard to describe. They just are. With thoughts, I'd describe them like little pockets of resonating energy. I noticed that images pop up depending on where the sensation is assumed to be felt.

Are they in the body

The sensations being "in the body" seems like a judgement added on after the fact. Like in the last question, the image of the body comes up.. but right now I can't say with definiteness that's where they're located at.

do they belong to body

It seems like the sensations don't belong to the body, but are constantly moving and creating the present feeling of "body".

is it your body or a body?

the inclination is to call it "my" body, but I can't find an actual "me" that the body belongs to. Like the sensations popping up images of the body, it seems like "me" is just a word.. idea.. image (described as 'me') that pops up. So looking at it directly, it's just a body.

Thanks Vivi,

Michael

[dreamer]

Hi Enough

Sorry for the delay.

It seems like the sensations don't belong to the body, but are constantly moving and creating the present feeling of "body

Look into this. What is it that creates the present feeling of a body?

greetings Vivi

[Enough]

No problem!

What is it that creates the present feeling of a body?

There were a lot of thoughts in response to this, but I did my best to look through directly at the sensations.

It doesn't feel like sensations are created by anything, they're just there on their own. The sensation of 'being the body' seems like a mix of felt sensations and an image/idea of the 'body' that comes shortly after.

Thanks,

Michael

[dreamer]

Right.

Now - you write 'seems' a lot when you have looked into something, is there any doubt of what is direct experienced?

Look into that :)

Greetings Vivi

[Enough]

Now - you write 'seems' a lot when you have looked into something, is there any doubt of what is direct experienced?

The doubt comes in afterwards, i think. I say "seems" because I'm always talking about a memory of what happened, so there's doubt whether what I thought happened is what actually happened.

Thanks,

Michael

[dreamer]

Ok, fine Michael

Look into the doubt when it happens, what is this doubt?

:) Vivi

[Enough]

In response to your question, the first answer that came up as a thought was a strong "I don't know."

Kept looking anyways, and what came up during looking (at how the present feeling of "body" is created)
was sensations of slight discomfort. Thoughts came up like "I can't tell for sure", "I don't know", "I can't do this" when I dug further into the "doubt". I didn't notice it was there until you pointed it out.

Thank you,

Michael