Otter Rivers & Barbara Mcrobbie

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otterrivers
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Otter Rivers & Barbara Mcrobbie

Postby otterrivers » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:08 am

(forum names: otterrivers & bobbie)

Otter Rivers
Welcome Barb.
-Lets agree to write at least once every day if possible. It is important to keep a momentum.
-Please only answer from direct experience, not from what you have previously learned. If you don't know, just write that.
-keep answers short when possible. Try to stay directly to the point.
-leave behind all previous learning or training for now. Lets look with fresh eyes as if for the first time.
-make sure you bring an open mind and true desire to see in a new way or this will just waste your time.

1) start by telling me what are your expectations. What do you expect from this conversation. What do you expect from 'liberation'?
2) LOOK at the words "I" and "SELF" and "ME". What do those words point to in your direct experience?

Otter Rivers feel free to begin answering the questions above tonight. i have to go to bed but i will respond in the morning. nice to see we are in the same time zone too.

Barbara McRobbie Thanks Otter, I've just read your posts, am off to work but will respond to the 2 questions when I'm back home later today.

Barbara McRobbie Yes I can respond every day, and instead of waiting, my expectations are to let go and breath a little easier in life to be less contracted. Right now the words I self and me point to me typing these words, a pressure of my arm resting on my chair a contraction in my chest and hearing the radio.

Otter Rivers ok good. Lets look at that. When you say "my arm" "my chest"... what is there to own the body parts? pressure is felt... can you find a central "feel-er" that is feeling pressure?

Otter Rivers what is it that wants to breathe easier and feel less contracted? point your attention to this 'self' and tell me what you find there.

Barbara McRobbie The sensations and visual field makes me aware that this arm is mine versus yours, there's nothing to own the body parts except thoughts claiming there mine. No I can't find a central feeler that is feeling pressure. There's just pressure.

Barbara McRobbie There's nothing there that wants to breathe easier and feel less contracted....but thoughts enter and turn it into this is uncomfortable.

Otter Rivers we have to use language like "i, mine, me" etc to talk but its what we mean by that that makes the difference. if you say "my arm" to distinguish which person you are talking about, that makes sense. What is pointed to when you say "makes me aware?" Is there a central being which is aware or not?

What comes up for you if i say there is no such thing as I or self anywhere in reality? how do you feel about that?

Otter Rivers and what is it that can BE either comfortable or uncomfortable? Of course we can see there is experience of comfort or discomfort but is there an :experiencer experiencing it? Or just a flow of experience happening? Look for the witness behind it... anything?
Lets say you have an onion and you peel away layer after layer to the center, what is left? It was all layers.
Do you kind of get a feel for what I'm pointing you towards? Really look at that sense of self that you feel. What could be feeling it?

Barbara McRobbie I don't know, I feel that something is here whether its called I or self.

Barbara McRobbie What wants to not be uncomfortable.? A ball of energy, a sense of self that's protective.

Otter Rivers Yes, so in direct experience you see there is a sense of self. 'i' or 'self' are just words. i can point to 'myself' for conversational purposes. the same as i can say the sun rises though we know thats not litterally true. The point of this isnt to stop that feeling from happening. we just learn to see there is nobody feeling it. in other words its all happening, but is it happening TO a self?

Otter Rivers there is presence, aliveness, awareness, but look for one who is present or feeling alive or aware.

Otter Rivers and i want to make sure to get a answer for "What comes up for you if i say there is no such thing as I or self anywhere in reality? how do you feel about that?" its important for me to know how to proceed.

Barbara McRobbie I can't seem to find one who is present or feeling alive or aware, only presence, aliveness awareness. but I should sit with this for sometime.

Barbara McRobbie Okay give me a moment

Barbara McRobbie I feel strange, scared,and a feeling like who is home

Otter Rivers ok. im glad you told me. we want to make sure to address this fear.

Barbara McRobbie Okay I'll look over what you've said again, and give it a try tomorrow. Thanks

Barbara McRobbie Oh, I'll give it a try tonight:-)

Otter Rivers oh ok. we can talk more about the fear tomorrow. for tonight I'll just tell you i promise u will be ok. it might seem scary but its safe. nothing really changes except your perspective.

Otter Rivers ok. lets talk more tomorrow. i know i hit you with questions pretty quickly and want you to have time to really look into it. let me know what comes up for you. some homework: before you go to bed (while this is still fresh) go for a walk outside or be around people or animals and really pay attention. is there a self behind anything going on? is there "you and life" or just life? are you seeing light, colors, shapes? are you hearing sounds? hearing and seeing happens but keep looking at it. is there anything behind any of it or just movements caused by other movements back into infinity? just stay present with that new seeing that there is no "one who is present" i'll talk to you tomorrow morning after you tell me how it went.

Barbara McRobbie Ok, thanks and good night!

Otter Rivers good night. enjoy!

Barbara McRobbie So what came up when present to all the sounds and movements in life last night, was an alert curiosity and it felt perpetual, comfortable, and that there was no one/self perpetuating it, it felt like i/something was coming forward. Although there is a compulsion to look back at the moment before and see some thing, or create some thing from it, so a snow ball effect gets built creating a sense of self. So I brought my attention back to being with what was actually happening. Felt like it's hard to sustain, was starting to get a headache and the compulsion to look back.

Barbara McRobbie I'm off to work Otter, but will check back in later in the afternoon.

Otter Rivers just missed you.

Otter Rivers ok good. and theres no need to maintain a new kind of focus or looking. its just that when you really see there is no self, other than a thought, you wont be able to forget it again for very long. and you wont run around in circles trying to defend it or build it up.

Otter Rivers thoughs can be very useful. they just point to things. some thoughts like "chair" point you to looking at that thing you sit on that matches the description of "chair". the thought "myself" just points to another thought with no anchor in reality. but we can be conditioned not to notice that.

Otter Rivers <" there is a compulsion to look back at the moment before and see some thing, or create some thing from it, so a snow ball effect gets built creating a sense of self. "> this compulsion doesnt need to go away. you just cant now unsee the lack of a real "me" that it is happening TO. forgetting is just part of the dance. what comes and goes is irrelevant. what is left there at all times? whether there is experience of noticing it or not, there is the space in the background within which it all happens.

Otter Rivers like when u were at work today, you likely found the experience of getting caught up in your affairs. things need to get done, and sometimes autopilot takes over and at points you may feel like you are waking up from the trance and seeing that there is no self behind ANY of it. your co-workers, customers, bosses... it is all just moving. maybe they think they have a self, but what is "they"? ...and then you get caught up in the flow of it all again. like a cork bobbing up to the surface and back under. naturally. im not saying this is how it should be, i am just pointing you towards seeing "when there is no I, what is left?" including the I that wants to stay in that seeing and realization. can 'You' choose to stay aware? or is awareness just always there, and noticing comes and goes? There is bobbing up and down on waves that just happen. And mind comes to claim responsibility for the up or down motions. And even that just happens on its own. You may think "how strange, it all just happens. Maybe I can relax and go with it" and even that is just part of the moving that is happening with nobody doing it. You can still live and explore and enjoy or not. The sense of self remains. You see? You don't become liberated. The liberation is just coming into realizingeverything is already free. Doing what it will. Including Barb.

Otter Rivers i am off to work myself. i may not be able to talk again until late tonight. i'll respond earlier if i get the chance.

Barbara McRobbie ummmm ,I know that there are times when that sense of me vanishes as your describing, I can be fully engaged in a task or painting, or observing something, and that sense of self isn't there, and all thats happening is just on autopilot as you say. Yes, that background of awareness is always there, noticing comes and goes, but as you've said the mind comes to claim responsibility, and instead of seeing that as another part of what's happening, it hooks onto this and claims it , and your saying even hooking onto this is okay it's just another part of what's happening and on and on and on. So knowing all this bobbing up and down, is just happening in the grand theatre of awareness , you stop resisting or maybe you continue to resist.

Barbara McRobbie Okay I'll have to sit with this some more. Thanks

Otter Rivers good. barb. u are doing great. i will get home in a few hours and be able to respond more.

Otter Rivers didnt end up getting home til very late. so reading over our conversation, I'd just like to ask do you feel anything is missing? any doubts? you have seen there isnt really a self behind the sense of self that is felt. you've seen that even forgetting and acting as if there was a self may happen and the liberation never really went anywhere. awareness stays and noticing of awareness comes and goes as it will. there are more steps in this process. we have final questions like a final exam to "pass" you into our aftercare groups. after this seeing, there is still all the pre-conditioned thinking. some of it nice, some of it garbage. it doesnt mean liberation didnt happen. We have several groups with others who are in the same conditioning, and those who have seen through it to help those who haven't yet. so as long as you truly see there is no self and truly percieve from that seeing, all doubts and fears can be worked on in after care groups. The actual liberation is very simple. Easy to miss. Thinking things should be different if you really are liberated held me back for a long time. It is often the last obstacle. You really can just let go into it. It is completely safe. But we want to make sure to hold your hand through the gate. step by step. no hurry. do you feel ready for the final questions or is there anything you feel we should discuss first?

Barbara McRobbie Thanks Otter, busy here too, will be home later tonight and read over your post and respond.

Barbara McRobbie I don't know Otter,in regards to liberation, but when you said these compulsions don't need to go away, and what comes and goes is irrelevant, the way you responded had an affect, my hook has always been a sense of self claiming responsibility, which as I see isn't a problem either, but one has to know that and see it. Conditioning was in a sense shot out of me in one blast, so I became the witness and a sense of personal self was gone, but there was still a layer that claimed responsibility. I read a book a few years ago called Collision with the Infinite by Suzanne Segal, that came the closest to my own story. I don't feel there is anything that comes up for me that needs to be discussed right now thanks.

Barbara McRobbie final exam!?

Otter Rivers you see how you said <" my hook has always been a sense of self claiming responsibility "> you see how tricky it can be to identify again? you explained it properly though. You see that even identifying as "the witness" is a false idea of self. There is witnessing. But any "one who witnesses"? There is feeling of "I AM", but is there any self feeling the feeling? or just a feeling happening?

ok i will ask the 9 questions. please take your time with each and answer in order like this:

1)
2)
etc.

I know you have already answered some of these but please be patient and answer again from direct looking in the present moment. not from memory of any new ideas you've learned. If there are any issues with any of your answers, we will look further into it and walk you through it step by step until it is clarified.

Otter Rivers .
.
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

Otter Rivers .
.
6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?

7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

8 ) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?

9) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening

Barbara McRobbie Yes I see what your saying, in regards to 'my hook' ...okay I'll go through the questions and respond 1 at a time....thanks for your effort.

Barbara McRobbie There's no me in direct experience, experiencing directly is too close too present to have room for a me, that's what it feels like.

Barbara McRobbie (Was there ever?), from what I'm seeing now, there was just a free floating hook claiming responsibility, but it wasn't really attached to anything.

Barbara McRobbie (2) The illusion of a separate self is when the aware presence that one is, over time becomes falsely identified with being the body moving in space, the thoughts and senses. It seems to start when a sense of me is born through the conditioning that happens in life, that something is gained and so something can be lost. That separates ones self from a sense of wholeness.

Barbara McRobbie 3. It feels beautiful, blissful, loving, full, all inclusive, shocking, terrifying, lonely. Beautiful, blissful, loving to open to a greater sense of self as some of the conditioning broke open to the creativity that was hidden, shocking, terrifying, lonely seeing and feeling all the collective conditioning and believing it to be all in a personal me, even though I'd been shown that all experience was happening in the mirror, and the separation was believing the personal self was the experience, while the real self was infinite and aware of it all.

Barbara McRobbie 4.I would say do you remember a time in your life maybe when you were a child when you felt like you were free. When you were so wonderously involved with something so present to what you were doing that you had no self consciousness, where there wasn't a sense of a me.

Barbara McRobbie 5. I don't know if I've been pushed over yet, I see and then don't see. Early on I had an experience of being the infinite that was powerful enough to stick but understanding took a lifetime. i had years of lucid dreams telling me to wake up, seeing myself in the mirror with one face after another and realizing that I was still the same essence. One important bit was listening to John Sherman 'just look at yourself' .....and Peter Dzuiban saying 'the background' which reminded me of the lucid dreams I'd had where the essence or background was the same.

Barbara McRobbie 6. I'm referring to what is aware as the expression of Barb

Barbara McRobbie 7. There's only experience, and the body belongs to experience when I look, I'm reminded of an experience I had a year ago , when I was driving down a country road, and all of sudden my perspective shifted and now I was the awareness that Barb was driving through.

Barbara McRobbie 8. I'm not sure I'm awake,.. the other day I had a feeling of relief from this being ' my burden' and was finding things weren't sticking as they usually do.

Barbara McRobbie 9. not sure I can say at present.

Barbara McRobbie I changed 3 a number of times to feel it was more complete, still doesn't feel quite right but I'll leave it.

Otter Rivers regarding questions 5, 8, and 9. thats totally fine. not being sure if you've gone through a gate or not is natural. confidence comes with time. getting settled in it. as long as you see when you look that there is no self to experience any of it. ...just experience happening. And as long as you can accept it ...you are done. It's a new beginning. seems too simple maybe but it unfolds in life in infinite ways.
can you believe there is a self anymore? can you un-see the truth you have seen? We can get a pretty good feel by your answers whether you have shifted perception. the rest we can work on after.
Let me present this to other guides now and wait for confirmations or more questions. will get back to you soon.

Barbara McRobbie Thanks Otter have a wonderful Christmas!

Otter Rivers yes you too! please tell me more about your doubts about your awakening. What is your understanding of what this word 'awakening' means when you say it here? what do you expect awakening to be? what causes you to doubt whether you have awakened?

Barbara McRobbie (can you believe there is a self anymore? If you mean can I believe in a personal self anymore , no...when I look there is only experience. However there is still a sense of self that just is and has always been. ( Can you un-see the truth you have seen?) No

Otter Rivers right. and adressing the other questions above? about doubts/awakening? its something another guide wants me to clarify with you.

Barbara McRobbie There have been doubts for years because I didn't understand what was being seen, felt more like waking up by degrees, over time more and more was understood. Now talking with you and being brought only to direct experience I can see there is no one to claim anything and there is an ability to move my attention to direct experience whenever I choose.

Barbara McRobbie (What is your understanding of what this word 'awakening' means when you say it here?) It means seeing through a personal claimer of experience.

Barbara McRobbie (What do you expect awakening to be) Freedom

Barbara McRobbie (What causes you to doubt whether you have awakened?) Not feeling free at all times!

Barbara McRobbie I realize there is only this moment to feel free in

Barbara McRobbie Time, no time in direct experience

Otter Rivers and also questions arise about the possibility of re identification emerging to claim new seeing of 'lack of self'. it is seen that you have had clear glimpses of lack of self in reality. which is all that is required for entering post gate groups. However, some of your comments suggest you may now be I-dentifying with awareness itself. There is always the possibility of very subtle Identification. I'm sure you understand, all guides want to be absolutely sure and i cant always see everything in your words. especially with my bias of wanting the best for "my client" haha. so please be very patient and look, then answer again from the point of now.

Otter Rivers is it true in your looking that awareness is also just another part of the show? can one be aware of awareness? can you see the flawed logic there? are you aware of awareness? if so, what is it that is aware that you are aware if awareness?

Otter Rivers <"I can see there is no one to claim anything and there is an ability to move my attention to direct experience whenever I choose."> Can you see the logical conflict between the first half, and second half of your sentence?
(Was going to bring up your statement of not feeling free all the time, but yes, you see there is no time in your experience.) Thank you for answering the same questions many times. Seeing the trick of seperation can be tricky. You see it then there is a habit of identifying with 'what is seen'. It is then seen that even this is only just happening, and then even this is subtly claimed habitually. Again you are doing great. We just put you under a microscope at this point in the process.

Barbara McRobbie Okay I'll re-read and respond sometime tomorrow.

Otter Rivers ok. When you have time.

Otter Rivers I re-read my last post and would like to add "what is choice?". if there is no self please explain choice. merry christmas!

Barbara McRobbie From what I'm seeing right now,choice needs a subject and an object, choice is two, separation, with no self there could not be choice only choosing happening.

Barbara McRobbie Arrrrrrrrg.... I see the logical conflict, 'ability to move my attention to direct experience whenever I choose. In direct experience there would be no one to direct attention, just attention directed towards and choosing happening.

Barbara McRobbie (is it true in your looking that awareness is also just another part of the show? can one be aware of awareness? can you see the flawed logic there? are you aware of awareness? if so, what is it that is aware that you are aware if awareness?) No awareness is not a part of the show, awareness is what it happens in.

Barbara McRobbie (Are you aware of awareness?) In direct experience I am not aware of awareness, I just am aware.

Barbara McRobbie (In direct experience 'one' cannot be aware of awareness) direct experience doesn't allow for two, just awareness.

Barbara McRobbie I'll check in later tonight, thanks this is really great!:-)

Otter Rivers yeah. thanks barb. i'll see if there are any more questions for you.

Otter Rivers wish we could confirm on christmas. heh. but everyone is busy understandably.

Barbara McRobbie Thanks again Otter, very understandable indeed... I'll check back in tomorrow...all the best.

Otter Rivers so barb, after careful consideration, a couple of questions remain. It's important that we make sure you see for yourself rather than possibly agreeing with something i say if it just feels right. not saying that is what is happening, we are just probing a little further to clarify.
The question of choice. Tell me how does choosing happen. it's another easy exercise. just go through your day and do your best to watch a choice happening. Tell me, what is going on in choosing?

And please also answer a little follow up question.:
-How do you view others lately? any different that before? explain please: What is an other or others?

Barbara McRobbie How does choosing happen? This feels kinda tricky, but what I see is a thought arises, or a sense arises or some thing presents itself in my field of vision that gives rise to choosing.

Barbara McRobbie How do you view others lately? Any different than before? There has been a marginal shift, hard to explain at this point. Felt more freedom over the holidays but nothing major. Was feeling that there was more weight on the background of awareness instead of all the movement of people and things and thoughts.

Barbara McRobbie Not sure what you mean by 'what is' an other or others, but what I see is that the same essence runs through and is the foundation of all of life, just different expressions.

Otter Rivers ok. good. that is what i meant by "what is an other or others" just a strange wording. you answered well. now back to choice, I'll give you another small exercise. you go to put your shoes on. or a jacket. (try this.) of course usually there is a habbit of which shoe or sleeve goes on first. count to 3 and quickly decide which to put on first, or to put nothing on at all. or to ignore this exercise... what is happening? you say choices present themselves in your field of vision which gives rise to choosing. what is choosing really?

Otter Rivers also answer this: can you choose? if there is no self, what chooses?

Barbara McRobbie I'm just trying to clarify,I didn't say choices present themselves in my field of vision, I said some thing presents itself in my field of vision that gives rise to choosing.

Barbara McRobbie without awareness there is no choice

Barbara McRobbie If there is no self what chooses? In direct experience there is choosing but no one choosing, there's just choosing. the sense of the personal has given way to what is immediately here. Although I can still feel like I'm choosing when not in direct experience. So it feels like I can choose until I directly experience.

Otter Rivers thanks for clarifying and sorry for misquoting you.

Otter Rivers Look for a decider. what is there deciding? obviously choosing happens. A dog can choose between 2 foods set in front of it. a bug can choose to crawl left or right or fly away... I can choose to write this or something else. you can choose to try this next exercise or ignore it.
it's just a deeper looking into 'choice'.

we have 2 shoes, & 2 sleeves on a shirt or jacket. there is usually a habit of putting on left or right first. when you shower you may notice you wash your left arm first... So noticing this you may say "I notice this and in order to not be so predictable I will wash my RIGHT arm first!" or "I notice this and it doesn't bother me at all. I like the comfort of my routine." ...either way, was there actually anyone deciding? or is either option just a thought that arises on it's own like anything else? I know it may seem like i'm feeding you the answer, but reeeally LOOK for yourself. I could be misleading you or tricking you or maybe I am just wrong and unintentionally misguiding you. It is imperative that you see and verify or deny this on your own see? Here's the exercise:

close your eyes. (after reading the rest of this, haha) Now relax and get to a light state of attention, observing the inner processes. Noticing thoughts or lack of thoughts. notice what you are thinking. now DECIDE to think of something else. decide WHAT you want to think OF.
Where is this new thought coming from? are you initiating it? is it popping up on it's own without a thinker? Even decide to think of the most random thing and watch for a thinker. if you find one, what is watching it? Check the thought "I will think of something else" or "I choose to cease thinking for a while". are these BEING THOUGHT? or just thought "thought-ing"?
Don't try to agree or see what you think makes the most sense. Really look with agreement that maybe this is all wrong! Maybe it's all B.S. you need to check. get right up there close to it and verify or disprove. Please try this a few times with sincere attention and patience and with no hurry. Then report to me your findings.
sorry to make you read so much. talk to you soon.

Barbara McRobbie Okay, my head is beginning to hurt already from just reading all of this!:-) I'll LOOK and be back when I've had the time to give it some real attention.

Otter Rivers haha. yeah its simple i just make it sound complex. its just watching the process and even trying to disprove what i seem to be suggesting.

Barbara McRobbie So after having a good look, I can see that thoughts just arise on there own volition, appearing and disappearing, there is no decider, that would only be another thought, and there is nothing there that is really deciding, except another thought that wants to know 'what is there deciding'. No thinker, just thoughts of a thinker, no initiator just thoughts of initiating. There's just witnessing things, images etc. as they come and go, a thought may enter that claims the last thought, but that is just another thought in the witnessing of awareness. Thoughts are like a perpetual motion machine, or like hot air, they rise and quickly fall. I may deliberately think of blue jays, and I may claim I thought of blue jays, but both are only thoughts that rise and fall and have a very short lifespan in awareness:-)

Otter Rivers look at this: "I may deliberately think of blue jays" you see that the claiming of the thought is a motion caused by other motion, not originating from a self. what about the thought "i will deliberately think of something"? Lets say I tell you to think about blue jay and you decide not to. What happens in that process?

Otter Rivers 2) does it seem i am over scrutinizing your answers? what is my intention in constantly asking for clarification? to get you to give a perfect answer? what for? if you have seen through illusion of a self as a 'causer' or 'witnesser' of thought, and you are guiding a client to clarify to such an extent, what is your intention?

Barbara McRobbie Otter I'm getting frustrated, and not sure what your asking anymore, yes I feel like your scrutinizing, but thats why I'm here. I'm trying to see what your directing me to see, not just give some perfectly agreeable answer! I feel like I'm missing the boat, because I believe your intention is to get me to see as well, hence all the scrutiny, but all this agreeable BS is getting in the way.

Otter Rivers its ok barb. we're not trying to force anything to happen. all we ask is that you look. just say what you see or dont see. And if you dont understand what i'm asking it is also ok to let me know. It can be a tricky thing to communicate. you are actually doing great. your answers have been just fine. And its fine that you got frustrated too. (or rather frustration happened right haha) look what it brings up. are you really trying? what tries? what wants to see? What causes frustration? Wanting to understand and thinking you should understand or that the question should be clearer? just let patience or frustration happen as it will. look into it. what happens in frustration? what is being defended? what is defending? (You don't have to answer this in writing, just suggesting you investigate. Keep to the bluejay question for now. hang in there)

Otter Rivers and i agree you are really looking and not just agreeing with me me. i should let you know i recognize that and even admit to being proud of you for it, though that is unimportant. just wanting you to know i recognize your sincerity. ok back to business, let me attempt to clarify:

Otter Rivers ok so if i say to you "dont think of a blue jay" most likely a blue jay thought will happen on its own. did you cause that thought to arise? can you THINK a thought? some people may even be able to keep from thinking of a blue jay by force of will. but isnt the thought "i will not think of a blue jay" also just a thought that happend? can you originate a thought? If you 'choose' what thought to think, is that not also a thought with nobody to think it?
"Choice": imagine i am tossing you an orange. dont decide til it is in the air "will i catch it in my left or right hand? both? let it drop to the floor?". more important than any answer you give is that you really watch this process. can you say choosing is even really happening? or are events just taking place with thoughts that there was a choice?

Barbara McRobbie Yeah, the blue jay just pops up, but you mentioned 'don't think of a blue jay' ...a giraffe didn't pop up...a blue jay popped up, so there is some continuity in awareness from one event to another. It seems like everything has independent arising, but it also seems 'dependent' on what is happening. In direct experience there is only reaching for a pen, choice is a reflection not a direct experience, that's what I'm seeing.

Barbara McRobbie That's what 'I'm' seeing would then be another reflection, there is only seeing .

Barbara McRobbie In regards to the orange, movements are happening, intention is happening, anticipation is happening,choosing isn't happening, thoughts may crop up that I had a choice or they may not.

Otter Rivers sorry for being unavailable. i was pretty sick with some kind of stomach flu, then busy with new years eve plans yesterday. i shouldve at least mentioned it to you. ok i am back now.

Otter Rivers i smile reading those answers. that also just happens. you see an intelligence happens that has nothing to do with thought or choosing? Choosing happens, or at least that is what appears, but we cant find choice when we look. It is just this or that happening. So we can rightfully say you can choose but it is only true in a relative sense. Like Saying the sun rises. OBVIOUSLY the sun rises, ...but not really.

Otter Rivers waiting for confirmations or any more questions for you.

Barbara McRobbie No problem, busy times....hope you'll be feeling better very soon:-)!

Otter Rivers 2 follow up questions. first please re answer " 7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience? Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?"

Otter Rivers and second: explain, right here, right now, who is Barbara Mcrobbie?

Barbara McRobbie 7) Awareness is the experiencer experiencing, but in direct experience there is only what is, experience, all else vanishes.
Experience does not belong to the body but to awareness, the body is another experience in awareness.

Barbara McRobbie, the one who's looking and reading this in liberation unleashed is typing these words.

Barbara McRobbie Although when looked from a different perspective, you could say that there is only the experiencer experiencing, that would actually be more accurate, but the idea of an experiencer seems to give a sense that there is some distance from the experience, which is not what I'm saying.

Otter Rivers so the character "barb" is the one looking and reading? really? Can you describe a little more fully? Who is Barbara mcrobbie as you see it right this second? There is no wrong answer. Just say what you see.

Barbara McRobbie The character barb hahaha....just sounds funny! If someone calls my name and I turn because I recognize it as something I respond to,it doesn't mean I'm a character like Mickey Mouse,who's looking out of these eyes the character or all that's ever looked out of these eyes. No I'm not asking the questions, just find it funny.

Barbara McRobbie who is Barbara McRobbie a bunch of thoughts and experiences.

Otter Rivers right. so barb exists in a relative sense. if i say barb, you know i mean this person and not that other person. like at the beginning of our talk when we clarified that saying "my arm" just means this arm. not that other arm on that body. if you say otter i know you mean this character here, and not barb or a different body. it isnt what i am, it just helps to know which body you are talking to or about.

Otter Rivers there is the person there but is it you that is looking out of the eyes? what is a "you"? sure you can find that looking is happening in direct experience. there is no looker is there? i know we've said this already, just reading a little deeper into your answer. even if you identify with the looking such as "i am looking out of these eyes" what is there that can exist to identify? you can see there is nobody there to look, then very easily conditioned response kicks in and says "i am that which sees that there is nobody there to see anything". Even that is ok. It will happen. Just keep questioning it. Otherwise we believe these assumptions by default. I know it can seem tricky, and i dont intend to frustrate you. all we can do is relate to you what is seen. its not personal or malicious. Just pointing back to the lack of a self. So how do you feel about this? How confident do you feel? Can you ever really believe again that there is a self in there?

Barbara McRobbie hmmmm, i can only say it feels like me, yet experiences have shown that sense of me vanishing into just what is, but even tho that's been seen i still keep acting like it's not so. It feels like i'm being blind sided by an impulse, that someone better claim this..it's a very sticky filter. Many thanks for your help Otter, you've written a pretty good description of what is happening, i'll have to go over what you've written and the questions and really sit with them again.

Otter Rivers yeah i had a feeling that was where you are at. I sensed you felt something missing, even though you now know nothing really is missing. It seems your answers are perfect, then in preparing to conclude our conversation some final questions are asked of you and your answers show you dont quite feel youve finished. its really ok dear barb. it really really is ok. just a step in the unfolding. I remember the same feeling in my experience of 'awakening'. Its ok not to feel confident yet. It is still new to you. And it is a good sign in my opinion that you didnt react with frustration even though we keep coming to the place of "almost done" then 50 more questions. It was a good sign too when you did react with frustration earlier because it shows the passion and unwillingness to just agree with what you are told. But now you see the truth is all that matters, not what we want. yes read over our conversation again. i will do so too. it helps to see it again from your current perspective. some questions or doubts may have already been addressed.

Otter Rivers the confidence will come with looking and questioning any conclusion you come to. even a true conclusion like "there is no self". the mind grabs that and holds onto it so now there is identifying with that which sees the truth. and there is a tendency to want the security of having that rock you can hold on to. "Ok the work is done. I found the answer". It doesn't really work like that. We are not replacing old beliefs with better ones. The 'answer' is the question. I mean you must keep the question open. there is no security, and its perfectly safe. mind is used to having answers. it craves answers and conclusions. But thats not good enough for you. You know it isn't or you wouldn't have been dissatisfied with it to begin with. We want truth right?

Otter Rivers -<""I can only say it feels like me""> what does that mean? Should that sense of 'me' or feeling like 'I am a self' go away? You can see it isn't true in an objective sense, but does that mean feeling like 'Me' means something is wrong?
<""even tho that's been seen i still keep acting like it's not so. It feels like i'm being blind sided by an impulse, that someone better claim this..it's a very sticky filter.""> yes. see how sticky it all is in just that sentence? Do you have a choice on how to react? can you see that the only thing holding this conditioning in place is thinking it shouldnt be there? keep looking and questioning and this too falls away. it cant be sustained without fuel. it will run out of gas. Ok. Sorry to write so much and possibly muddy the waters more. My intent is just to encourage you. You are on the right track. Don't give up or feel something has gone wrong. This is just right. Ok take some time. Write back when you feel you are ready. I guarantee this process works. You don't have to do anything but observe (or rather observing happens. What could possibly observe?). And let go of any conclusions. Look and report what is seen without comparing it to your thoughts about it. Sorry again for the long messages. I just wanted to be very clear.

Barbara McRobbie What wonderful help you and the others here are offering, your not muddying the waters at all, it's helping to both encourage and give greater clarity to what I see/feel, which you've touched on here. 'can you see that the only thing holding this conditioning in place is thinking it shouldn't be there' ...hmmmm..yeah exactly! ..and .. 'The answer is the question, I mean you must keep the question open there is no security, and its perfectly safe. mind is used to having answers, it craves answers and conclusions.' This statement is really important, I need to let that sink in and some other stuff you've mentioned here about letting go of conclusions. Okay I'll see how it goes and be back when I've let it sink in.

Otter Rivers Right. Just keep to direct experience. Sure there will be some thinking about it that goes on, but remember its not something that requires much thought. Just keep to a relaxed looking. Nothing special to do. Stay with the basics. Keep it simple. Is there a self? What is going on with awareness? What is there when there is no barb? Let it sink in. let it sink and sink and sink. theres no bottom.

Otter Rivers while you are away.: Here is an introduction to Direct Experience and breaking it down skilfully in to streams to do investigation:
http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... ce-de.html
Take some time to get used to this simple noticing that is always present. Then do these exercises and see if you can find an 'I' or 'me' that is influencing or doing or controlling:
http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... rship.html
cosmiK: Direct Experience (d.E.)
this-is-cosmik.blogspot.com
Hey there,Yes, you certainly can, and I would appreciate a link to this blog as well.hope it helps cut through any illusions of separation,with Love..

Barbara McRobbie Thanks... really appreciate this is short and to the point, sometimes books are just too long and wordy!:-)

Otter Rivers reading over our conversation again, i'd like to clarify with this question: Is there SOMETHING I've been trying to get you to see?

Barbara McRobbie No not SOMETHING,although the spaciousness i felt the other night that i don't feel right now, has now become a something!

Otter Rivers yes ok. there is no 'no self'. there is just a lack of a self/doer behind any of it. there is a personality here but no pilot at the controlls deciding what to type to you now. something bumps into something which causes it to bump into something else on and on. motion. uncaused.

Otter Rivers i asked to clarify. if you are searching to find something, you could get frustrated at not finding. and anything you do find is illusion. spaciousness happens. therefore that is not it. Do you feel that the experience should always be of peace and clarity if you are liberated?

Barbara McRobbie Yeah, I see what your saying, ..sort of... intelligence says life is neither peaceful or clear all the time so it's nonsense to assume that it would be...and life seemed to become more chaotic...but there is that want for more peace and clarity... which is a something, which is then a conclusion as you mentioned before, in letting go of conclusions.

Otter Rivers its ok to experience wanting peace or clarity. do you really believe the thoughts that come up around that?
2) Do you feel there is a 'me' to be responsible for any of that?
3) do you feel like we are done? what is missing? anything?

Barbara McRobbie I know that freedom,peace, clarity is not in a thought belief of freedom etc. I still feel there is a me to be responsible, but I realize that this is another thought that comes and goes. Nothing is really missing, everything that comes to mind is again something that comes up and then dissipates, a thought, feeling etc. Direct experience is here at all times, I cannot say I feel confident right now, but that thought also comes and goes.

Otter Rivers thank you.

Barbara McRobbie thank you Otter (((Big Hugs)))!!!

Otter Rivers whether we are done or whether it turns out there is much more work to do, I'd like to stay in contact. i appreciate and respect the rapport we've built and feel that after the formality necessitated by this process, we could be good friends. as good as a facebook friendship can be anyway. thank you barb.

Barbara McRobbie That would be great Otter, I'd like that as well, I'm sure grateful for some of the relationships I've made on facebook in the last few years. Those who understand this kind of stuff in my life are pretty slim, of course that doesn't really matter in the big picture, but then again it does... thank goodness for people like yourself that do understand, and are sharing it so freely and simply! Who would have thought it would be so simple, looks like life took me on the slow scenic route! Well i'm probably half baked...but at least I can now see that that's just another thought hehe.

Otter Rivers awesome barb. thank you. awaiting further questions or confirmations for you.

Otter Rivers the quote <""i can only say it feels like me, yet experiences have shown that sense of me vanishing into just what is, but even tho that's been seen i still keep acting like it's not so. It feels like i'm being blind sided by an impulse, that someone better claim this..it's a very sticky filter."">
Is this true in your experience right now?
1) Does this sticky filter have any reality in experience?
2) The 'sense of me' and 'just what is' in your sentence: Please really look as hard as you can. Find a differece or seperation between those two and explain what you find.

Barbara McRobbie The sticky filter doesn't exist when I look right now, no it doesn't have any reality really.
A sense of me, seems to pull up a thought of a boundary of the body, but when looking the body doesn't exist there's just vastness
Just what is, feels likes there's no boundaries just vast...
but in reality when looking they both feel the same.

Otter Rivers We'd like to know how you see this now.
1) How would you assess yourself in this process now. do you feel we are done?
2) Is there anything that could come up that would cause doubts?
3) What is it that is seen?
4) Do you see or just mentally understand?

Otter Rivers Dont feel pressured to "answer correctly". theres no benefit to finishing this quickly. we have all the time we need. The intention is to stay with you until you've seen clearly in your own time. Just stay with what is seen now and the rest takes care of it's self.

Barbara McRobbie I'm letting these questions sit with me, don't really feel like we're done, these questions have brought up a lot of questioning and conditioning that leaves me feeling there's doubt, but finding it difficult to articulate. Thanks for staying with me,... I'll post tomorrow if I feel i can put what I'm seeing/feeling into words.

Otter Rivers perfect barb. absolutely perfect. thank YOU for staying with me. this is the perfect point for us to be at right now. know that. we take each step together in trust that it is just right. ok? Take your time but dont let it sit out too long. keep it fresh. i'll check tomorrow.

Otter Rivers 1 more thing, sitting with the questions is just fine. Just remember you will not ever THINK yourself into liberation. looking looking looking. ok?

Barbara McRobbie So i woke up early this morning,feeling there was a wall, and started looking wondering am i seeing or just mentally understanding, well likely it was both meaning the mental was getting mixed in with glimpses ....because then i saw felt the feeling state of being of the child or the view and there was just life, life living life, one life, one movement, no me just life, nothing but life. The feeling was like open rolling fields spreading out in every direction,... I guess that's why i've always loved rolling fields.

Barbara McRobbie I'm on my way out so will see how things go over the course of the day.

Barbara McRobbie So breakfast was a little more entertaining this morning, having a little Mikey moment ( if you know what i mean)...felt like a sense of ownership was out of the way. However all began to fade over the day, as i got busy...my work is driving, where i appear to have some control, although I've had enough indicators through lucid dreaming that no one is driving. Anyways I'm feeling or guessing that was another state,although i felt like there was some clarity, or maybe i'm fooling myself. As i'm driving i'm telling myself to keep looking, not just at the road, but i feel like i'm waiting for something to happen, i'm feeling lost in the looking.

Barbara McRobbie So I'm gathering that the waiting game of anticipation is another mental hang out that something is going to happen, as is the idea that i'm fooling myself, the i just being an idea....but this is still happening, an idea of an i getting lost in the looking.

Otter Rivers you see all the references to the self there? experiencing then speculating on the experience. which is fine but not what we are working on. you seem to be stuck a little with A and B therefore C.

Otter Rivers it's ok. but lets keep it simple. really look for this self that the automatic thoughts seem to orient your experience to. imagine an apple in your left hand. it is red and shiny. you feel it's weight and smell it. you bite and taste it... now really look. where did the apple go?

Otter Rivers The thought of this apple had no actual anchor in reality. is this 'me' or 'I' that is pointed to in any different?

Barbara McRobbie I seem to be in a loop. No there is no difference between the thoughts you describe, other than the weight that's being given to the thought. it seems that the thought that there is something conscious here quickly takes over, turning it into a belief. when directly looking there's just the experience. I do feel that i see this but it doesn't seem to have any impact. I'll continue with the direct looking ....but there's a sense that the belief in an i or a sense of me gives protection. So i'll have to directly look at that.

Barbara McRobbie That sense of protection is about taking the leap the risk of really living really loving, which makes sense from the perspective of a me because this world is a crap shoot....and shit happens...but there's a faulty belief that there is or ever was a me that could offer protection...it's more like life stepped in and offered the protection although to the me it looked like more crap. I'll be at an impass if i can't get through this. I'll stay with the direct looking feeling.

Otter Rivers <"I do feel that i see this but it doesn't seem to have any impact. I'll continue with the direct looking ....but there's a sense that the belief in an i or a sense of me gives protection. So i'll have to directly look at that.">

1) Can there be this safety of "sense of me" without a belief in a self which can "have" that feeling? (Also who could feel this protection?)

2) what impact should "seeing this" have? What would be different if it had an impact? Feel that.

Otter Rivers 3) Does this "thought that there is something conscious" have any substantiality in experience? Does it truly have the power to turn anything into a belief?

--take a good look at these questions. Don't over think it though. Looking.

Otter Rivers Its ok to feel at an impasse. we just stay here until it isn't an impasse any more, which will or won't happen in it's own time. FEEL that pressure. Keep it up. You don't need to do anything, I just mean just stay in that place of looking. What is looking? Anything?
And what if this impasse never ended? (Not saying it wont, just imagine with me here) What if you found out this is how it will always be?
You're doing good Barb. Feel free to let doubt and worry arise if that is what comes up. I am confident.

Barbara McRobbie 1)yes, i see what you mean, it's all thoughts upon thoughts it would be another thought that would believe or think it could hold a thought as itself that needs protection.

2)I don't know what impact seeing this should have, when looking it's just more thoughts speculating what impact this should have. What would be different? it's all thoughts about what would be different, there's nothing there, no difference.

3) no it's just a thought that something is conscious it doesn't really have any greater life than that. No it's just what it is and thats it...no power to turn anything into a belief just a thought about power to turn into a belief.

Looking is just that no more no less, it's nothing but looking... if that can even be said.

What if this impasse never ended, well i'm seeing that as just another thought , and if i found out this is how it will always be, well when looking i'm unphased it would make no difference at all...because what's here has always been here, that's what it feels like.

Otter Rivers ....and what is liberation?

Barbara McRobbie This is it!?

Otter Rivers i am only asking. what do you see? what becomes liberated?

Otter Rivers i have a little time to chat if you can stay around.

Barbara McRobbie Oh, okay:-) I can be around for about an hour.

Barbara McRobbie What becomes liberated, nothing becomes liberated it never wasn't

Otter Rivers but what if you forget and get caught up in a story again?

Barbara McRobbie I will look and see the truth

Otter Rivers what is the word "I" pointing to in that sentence?

Barbara McRobbie i is pointing to nothing

Otter Rivers and what is this nothing that is pointed to?

Otter Rivers stay with me here. just check it out.

Barbara McRobbie here

Otter Rivers what goes back and forth between seeing and forgetting?

Barbara McRobbie life

Otter Rivers okay. but what about when you see there is no self then, completely beyond your controll, you find something claiming it and identifying again?

Barbara McRobbie when directly looking there's only what's happening now

Otter Rivers this is for my curiousity, why arent you getting frustrated with what seems like the same question asked in different ways?

Barbara McRobbie because i'm laughing

Otter Rivers we may not need an hour. haha.

Barbara McRobbie You mean i can get my chai latte now! Yeah ...much love!♥

Otter Rivers I'm tryng to give you the worst that life can give. if it needs to be dealt with, we'll deal with it here. of course life will present it in infinite new ways but the core belief is the same.

Otter Rivers I like chai!

Barbara McRobbie Thanks Otter i guess here is all there ever is!

Otter Rivers yeah. we already knew that right? but for some reason it is a new insight? how does that happen huh? lol

Barbara McRobbie funny how that happens, yeah knew it all along!!!!!!!!!lol

Barbara McRobbie Big smile!

Otter Rivers homework: (I will do this too) read over our entire conversation. lets look for anything missing. anything that wasn't addressed. then we may do some of those "final questions" over again. and wait for any further questions from other guides who can see it from more of a distance than I.

Barbara McRobbie Okay I'll print it out and see what i find.

Otter Rivers ok go get that chai. drink it in. talk to you soon. possibly tonight.

Otter Rivers Be a dear and answer these questions. they may look familiar but just answer them now with the looking happening now. forgetting any previous answers you may have given. you've never seen these questions before. they are new now, ok?

Otter Rivers .

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
.
6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?

7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

8 ) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?

9) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening

Barbara McRobbie Okay I'll look them over again and see what comes up.

Barbara McRobbie 1. no and never was. 2. that there is a personal self running this body and life, it starts when thoughts are believed to be reality.

Barbara McRobbie 3. It feels like there's nothing to see. 4. I would say do you remember when time seemed to vanish and there was no me in that moment.

Barbara McRobbie 5. When asked if this was mental or real seeing, having the feelings and experience a few days ago of the child where there was just life living life, the feeling of needing protection, being asked who needs protection.

Barbara McRobbie 6. Nothing

7. When looking there's only experience. The body belongs to experience.

8. nothing when looking at that question, who awoke

9. again who's awakening, when looking it doesn't compute.

Otter Rivers ok good. u answered briefly and even used all the perfect words. but I'd say we do need to go just a bit deeper than THAT.

Otter Rivers 3) the question says 'describe in detail'. i dont really get the answer. blab a little more. u have permission.

6) I also ask that you elaborate on this question.

7) if there's not an experiencer experiencing, then what is experience in your current understanding?

Barbara McRobbie Okay I've got to go back and look at the question

Otter Rivers wait til a time when you feel you have time to really be with the questions. no need to finish tonight.

Barbara McRobbie Okay i'll look tomorrow but could you clarify the question number 3, does it mean how does it feel to see the illusion of the separate self?

Otter Rivers 7) and ... I completely understand your answers. In the first few hours after a realisation which verifies that there is no self, i am asking you to describe it from the point of view of "someone whom it is happening to". May seem unimportant, but that is exactly what i'm asking. Explain the best you can from that perspective. play along.

Otter Rivers yes. it's seeing how you feel about questions 1) and 2). #3) asks you to explain your experience of any feelings that come up from seeing there never was a self in reality as well as any feelings about seeing the origin of this illusion.

Barbara McRobbie Okay i'm off to bed but will check them tomorrow morning...night.

Otter Rivers ok good. i'm about to go fall asleep too. see you in outer space.

Barbara McRobbie Okay maybe I blabbed to much now!! 3) I first felt the impact of a no self when i was a young adult, no understanding....it was not subtle but shocking, rocked the foundation of my world, I was scrambling to re-construct the self, because it got blown out. I saw the one essence and aliveness that permeated everything, colours became more vivid, life became more intimate, bliss bubbled up, creativity bubbled up but when talking with people i would be transfixed by there mouths moving but no one was there, like i was seeing empty space. I saw all the conditioning and felt like people were all talking about nothing, and couldn't see there conditioning at work, although all conditioning felt like my conditioning, didn't know what was mine and theirs... the me thought still prevailed. I had spatial problems, frequently time would slow.This shocked my nervous system which lead to panic, over time integration happened...but the me thought prevailed.

The conditioned self is thoughts upon thoughts and a belief that those thoughts is who one is which creates a me that then feels separate. Thoughts seem to be in the middle from a personal self's perspective, when that middle is seen through the me vanishes to experience.

Now, after all that was written above and seeing that there never was a personal self from directly looking... it's a feeling of relief, it's subtle, it's right here now, the feelings have been one of a meeting, an openess....not saying conditioning won't arise but when looking it feels like a meeting... i remember someone saying ' everything's an invitation' i see this now. A slowing a greeting of gratefulness for whatever shows up, a playfulness....again not saying that will always be the case, but that's the feeling. Life seems to be doing away with meaning, as a felt sense came up the other night, i could see how i may have analyzed this before, but now that had no meaning....it felt more like life greeting life.

Barbara McRobbie 6) I is really a meaningless term that describes the experiences that are happening here

Barbara McRobbie 7) The essence of life throwing up expressions to meet itself and see itself.

Barbara McRobbie I'm soon on my way out for the day, but will check in later to see if there's more to clarify...

Otter Rivers ok. i like 3) much better now! haha. Also I meant and 9) before in the comment above. Not "7) and "

Otter Rivers ok me too. off to work. i'll check back in tonight and look for that reply to and 9). later.

Barbara McRobbie Ahhh you tricky Otter!:-) What did you experience at the moment you awoke, seeing through those rose/gray filtered sunglasses of a me, to what is right here now, moment to moment.

Barbara McRobbie 9) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening. I don't know about awakening, but i'll entertain that for awhile, i mentioned quite a bit in question 3 but i'll add that creativity in the last few days has opened up again, was feeling quite stale for some time, i get most joy out of painting experimentally but was feeling flat for quite awhile, well it's like a dam burst and i've been drawing and writing all these ideas of how to proceed in the last few days, elements in regards to this have been scattered but they seem to be working there way into one picture.

Otter Rivers thanks barb. i'll be back with more questions. or not.

Otter Rivers you say "i dont know about awakening, but"... i understand we havent called it awakening. lets say liberation. do you feel you have gone through what we are calling liberation? if so, try to answer 9) replacing "awakening" with "liberation".

Barbara McRobbie I don't feel like i have gone through liberation, i feel that liberation is seeing through the idea that there was a me to go through liberation, however seeing through an idea of a me when looking did take place, that sense of me has continued to come and go the last few days.

Otter Rivers "i have gone through liberation" is one of thise relative terms like "Lap" or "sunset". its ok to talk about it in terms of it happening to "you". we dont always have to use the perfect spiritual words. we'd know what u meant. but its ok. i get your explanation.

Otter Rivers i'm curious, are you saying this "sense of me coming and going" an issue for you or just a description of the experience?

Barbara McRobbie It doesn't feel honest to use a term that i can't relate to....because i can't get to the felt sense of what's happening

Barbara McRobbie not sure what you mean by issue versus experience.

Otter Rivers i meant: is that seen as a problem or were you just describing the experience of "me" happening sometimes and then not happening other times. i think i know, just checking.

Barbara McRobbie oh i see what you mean by issue, yes and no

Barbara McRobbie It's both an experience and can feel bother some but not overly so.

Otter Rivers this being bothered some by the experience of sense of self coming and going, ...could this possibly take anything away from the liberation that happened?

Barbara McRobbie no it can't take anything away it's always here, but liberation sounds so final, when it's only the beginning, i prefer an open ended word

Otter Rivers haha. yeah like any other word, liberation means whatever you think it means. i dont see liberation as a finality. the only thing final about it is absolutely knowing through looking that there is no self ever. so when we say awakening or liberation, know we dont mean everything will always be pleasant and fun now.

Barbara McRobbie Okay smarty pants!

Otter Rivers lets use "Relief" in place of liberation or awakening. now look at and 9)

Barbara McRobbie Relief sounds great, so i look at these two again?

Barbara McRobbie Okay will answer them again tomorrow, off to sleep i must go...thanks!

Otter Rivers sure. why not? we have the time. And i know the other guides will appreciate it. go for it. your patience is appreciated barb.

Otter Rivers ok. goodnight.

Barbara McRobbie as is your patience appreciated Otter and the other guides!

Barbara McRobbie I experienced looking and seeing that thoughts of me would come and go in a constant space of being.

9) feeling lighter, more creative, dreaming more haven't been remembering dreams in ages, sleeping a bit better, less pressure in the front of my forehead from a thinking that didn't seem
to let up, slowing down , taking things in more, thoughts like 'is this it, nah too simple', more of a resting in that space.

Otter Rivers these answers are incorrect. we have to start all over.

Otter Rivers ...just teasing...

i am happy to say you have been confirmed. we are done here! 237 comments! we've come a long way from here to here. i will set you up with the after care groups and explain all the post-gate info. it has been a pleasure. We will stay in touch, but we're done with this thread.

Otter Rivers it's not too late to say something out of whack so we can continue. (haha just kidding.) I hope it's ok for me to feel proud of you because i sure do. i will be messaging you soon with more info. tonight or in the morning.

Barbara McRobbie Yeaaaah!.... okay, i hope my certificate of authenticity is in the mail!

Barbara McRobbie Ahh thanks Otter, and thank you for all your attention and dedication....i'm really in awe of you all!

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