Need a little push

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fnazaldon
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Need a little push

Postby fnazaldon » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:19 am

Hi!

After having read some threads on LU, I have decided to post.

Here is the situation. I stumbled upon non-duality several years ago, read many books, watched videos from many “teachers”.

This led me to some clear “understanding” of what I was searching but, as many people here on LU, this was intellectual. Then, this summer, I had a kind of “vision” (I don’t like that term): I “saw” my thoughts as a veil between reality and “what I am”. It has been very short but I noticed in the following days that I felt “lighter”. Some “dark” energy that was lurking in me disappeared and I also felt as if my sensations and my thoughts were superficial : the “me” was like my skin, perceived. Thoughts come and go, and “I” is a thought which creates emotions that come and go in the body. Once you see that, thoughts and emotions are seen as waves. If you let thoughts come sticky, emotions stay (and especially bad emotions can stay a long time)

These last years, I also gradually came to the conclusion that the way we live our life is fully conditioned by our education and our genes. We have the illusion that we make choices but this is clearly an illusion. I can see that in everyday life; in discussions for example: what I say, what I answer is fully conditioned, like a very very smart computer program. This is in fact very relieving. You do things you do, fully, but you do not judge yourself anymore. Of course I often blame myself for stupid reactions, but I know that this is my personality, my history. And this is the same for everybody and everything: the history of the whole universe is in every move, every action. It couldn’t be different than what it is now.

Some weeks ago I attended a conference with Francis Lucille. I was atonished to be able to answer the questions as he did. In fact, almost every question...

I precisely realised that although I saw that the “me” was an illusion, I still don’t see what I am. When Francis Lucille talked about consciousness, I could not feel what he was talking about.

So, if somebody here at LU has any advice, I would be very thankful.

Paul

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Jorge786
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Re: Need a little push

Postby Jorge786 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:43 am

Hi Paul!

I think your experiences are really interesting, and are an excellent opportunity to initiate short path to the gate... that there is no

I will be your guide if you want.

since you've read some threads you know the commitments:
Maintain contact on a regular basis.
leave any spiritual practice and readings for the moment.

There is an explanation of what we do here, a disclaimer, also a video to watch on the home page (http://www.liberationunleashed.com/), if you have not done yet. This is a process in which I ask, and you consider what direct experience shows, in all honesty with oneself.

If you agree we can begin, and comment about your post.

best wishes
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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fnazaldon
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Re: Need a little push

Postby fnazaldon » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:50 am

Hi Jorge!

I agree. I am ready to begin.

Regards,

Paul

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Jorge786
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Re: Need a little push

Postby Jorge786 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:49 pm

Thoughts come and go, and “I” is a thought which creates emotions that come and go in the body. Once you see that, thoughts and emotions are seen as waves. If you let thoughts come sticky, emotions stay (and especially bad emotions can stay a long time)
that's great!, do you want a guide job? ;-). is as I see things happen. thoughts produce emotions and those produce thoughts witch produce....
well... I wonder who is there to permit to thoughts come sticky?, can "you" control that?
who are producing thoughts?, can you look at this?, is somebody there producing thoughts?
These last years, I also gradually came to the conclusion that the way we live our life is fully conditioned by our education and our genes. We have the illusion that we make choices but this is clearly an illusion. I can see that in everyday life; in discussions for example: what I say, what I answer is fully conditioned, like a very very smart computer program. This is in fact very relieving. You do things you do, fully, but you do not judge yourself anymore. Of course I often blame myself for stupid reactions, but I know that this is my personality, my history. And this is the same for everybody and everything: the history of the whole universe is in every move, every action. It couldn’t be different than what it is now.
yeah!... great, nobody are in control of nothing... what now?,, to control must be something or "somebody" controlling, a separate entity in charge; do you "feel" you are an separate entity?, What is which prevents you from seeing? ask yourself... look inside deeply.
Some weeks ago I attended a conference with Francis Lucille. I was atonished to be able to answer the questions as he did. In fact, almost every question...
I precisely realised that although I saw that the “me” was an illusion, I still don’t see what I am. When Francis Lucille talked about consciousness, I could not feel what he was talking about.
ok ... going to paraphrase Mr. Lucille, (I've seen on youtube and I think he's a great expositor).
What is it that "perceives" things?, That is, when you see, what or whom perceives what has been seen?, The eye?, the brain?, What is it that perceives?.

Best regards
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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fnazaldon
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Re: Need a little push

Postby fnazaldon » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:33 pm

Hi Jorge,

Thanks for your help and your comments.
well... I wonder who is there to permit to thoughts come sticky?, can "you" control that?
who are producing thoughts?, can you look at this?, is somebody there producing thoughts?
No, nobody, nothing produces thoughts. They appear and go. On the contrary, thoughts produce the idea of a "somebody".
In fact, I am wondering whether maybe "I" refuse the stickiness. Thoughts about awakening, about what should be awakening or life after it are at play. "I" refuse to be angry for example. But being angry is life, even if it lasts for some time.
I see that I thought that seeing my thoughts and my emotions would set me aside, would allow me not to be involved in these emotions.
Maybe it's the explanation...
to control must be something or "somebody" controlling, a separate entity in charge; do you "feel" you are an separate entity?, What is which prevents you from seeing? ask yourself... look inside deeply.
that's the point: there is nobody controlling, no separate entity in charge, no little devil in my head.
There is seeing, hearing, feeling, thinking. To be honest, there is a kind of a feeling of a "separate" entity, but this more related to the perception of the body. And this feeling is perceived, too :-)
There are perceptions and no perceiver. And I can't go further. I cannot honestly speak about consciousness which is a word I have difficulty to use. Yes: I am conscious. But I can tell no more.
I read somewhere that a kind of test to check whether you're awaken or not is: are there other people? I must admit that yes. There are other women and men. I don't feel this impersonality of consciousness (and that's why I am here on LU)
Sometimes I feel like an empty egg. Perceptions appear on the surface but the inside is empty. And I don't know what 's inside...

I am not sure to be very clear in my explanations. Tell me Jorge.

And, again, thanks for your king help.

Regards,

Paul

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Jorge786
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Re: Need a little push

Postby Jorge786 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:17 pm

Exactly what are doing now is to see with absolute certainty, without doubt, if this "I" exists or not.
Do not analyze whether the "I" is this or that or how it is working.
when I asked "Who is there?", is to point to that belief about the "I" which is persisting.
Yes: I am conscious.
That statement may be an intention of identifying with something that, at the time, is a simple concept and it's just in the mind.
No, "You" do not exist, there is nothing there, it's like the concept of absolute... zero, emptiness, nothing, do not try to find out who you are or what you are... you're nothing. No other persons either
There is seeing, hearing, feeling, thinking
but when "you" look, are "you" seeing?, or that simply is happening, look at each case that you've mentioned, "hearing" or it's just happening.
it's that possible without an "I"?,
please do not answer from your memories, a direct experience is necessary, to "look" mean avoiding the "I"

Get up and walk, step by step, look who's walking?, or "walk" just happening.
Close your eyes and breathe, are you breathing? or breathing just happens.

Yes, your explanations are very clear, thanks

Best wishes
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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fnazaldon
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Re: Need a little push

Postby fnazaldon » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:32 pm

Hi Jorge!
but when "you" look, are "you" seeing?, or that simply is happening, look at each case that you've mentioned, "hearing" or it's just happening.
it's that possible without an "I"?
Seeing is happening: I do not see
Hearing is happening: I do not hear
Feeling is happening: I do not feel
Thinking is happening: "I" is a thought. Thoughts appear (uncontrolled). They are "perceived" in a way.
Of course everything is beautifully coordinated in order to allow everyday life! Wonderful!

When I take part in a discussion, I often realize that what I just said was said in an action-reaction way but without "me". This "me" thought comes after. Words flow by themselves, ideas come: no control.

That's what I can see and what I can say about it.

Thanks for your help,

Paul

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Jorge786
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Re: Need a little push

Postby Jorge786 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:55 am

Good!

Then...
Do you exist in any form, in any way?

if the answer is yes...
how you feel that realization?

you're welcome

Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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Jorge786
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Re: Need a little push

Postby Jorge786 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:32 pm

Hello Paul, how's it going?
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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fnazaldon
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Re: Need a little push

Postby fnazaldon » Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:23 am

Hi Jorge!
Do you exist in any form, in any way?
It's a tough question: for me, there are only perceptions, including perceptions of thoughts (I know it's kind of strange to say that). And there is no perceiver. Who could perceive? :-)

I feel that since this summer, but is it all? I mean, it seems so simple. I also understand that what I have read may have given me a false idea of "realization". Could you tell me more? Is it the end of the road?

In a way, it's ok for me; life is lived and every moment is a surprise: sometimes good, sometimes bad. There can be pain, but suffering is now clearly seen as a mental activity, and is perceived as such (although sometimes it creates strong emotions in the body, emotions are also perceived).
Life is also lived in the present: past are memories and future is thought. There is only now.
There is the feeling to flow in the current of life without any resistance. So easy!

Well, Jorge, that's what I can say today.

Regards,

Paul

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Jorge786
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Re: Need a little push

Postby Jorge786 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:54 am

...And there is no perceiver. Who could perceive? :-)
yes, there is only perceptions, then... there is only one "thing"... only one "perceiver"?, can you look trough your direct experience, (http://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read ... l_there_is) what's show up?
I feel that since this summer, but is it all? I mean, it seems so simple. I also understand that what I have read may have given me a false idea of "realization". Could you tell me more? Is it the end of the road?
It is simple!, the realization is not an idea, what you're thinking about "that", that's an idea, there is not an end of the road, there is a beginning with a new perspective.
There is the feeling to flow in the current of life without any resistance. So easy!
Yes!, when you are "present" it's "effortless"
Do you need anything more from Life than to know that?, what you need right now?
Are you enjoying this simply life in spite of the good and the bad?


best wishes
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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fnazaldon
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Re: Need a little push

Postby fnazaldon » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:07 pm

Hi Jorge!

I understand that my ideas about "realization" are just ideas.

Life is indeed easy, flowing in the current.
Do you need anything more from Life than to know that?, what you need right now?
Are you enjoying this simply life in spite of the good and the bad?
No: I don't anything else. Just curious about what is about to happen, pleasant or unpleasant (better than "good" or "bad" which carry too many moral concepts).
There is a kind of joy that is coming in the background from this easiness.
yes, there is only perceptions, then... there is only one "thing"... only one "perceiver"?, can you look trough your direct experience, (http://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read ... l_there_is) what's show up?
Well, what I can say now is that I realize that there are perceptions. If I believe the three steps which are mentioned by Rupert Spira, then I would say I'm in the first one and trying more or less to explore the second. But, well, these are also concepts and I feel a bit suspicious about them (although I appreciate Rupert Spira).

But there is no real search as before. I almost stop reading non-duality books. When I do, this is just for fun. I just realize that the remaining curiosity is link the last "steps" about which Rupert Spira is talking.

So I understand (and I feel) that I have to let go, simply and that this is the beginning of the road :-)
It is just fine for me. Life is adventure (even everyday life).

I don't see any more questions arising. But maybe you have some for me :)

Best regards,

Paul

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fnazaldon
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Re: Need a little push

Postby fnazaldon » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:11 am

One more thing Jorge. (I read again the text of Rupert Spira)

To sum up: "I" is a thought and thoughts don't think :) That is clear.
I saw that thoughts come as a veil on reality.
Thoughts and sensations are perceived. Ok.

Yet, what remains unclear (and what drives me here at LU) is what I am really: I don't want to answer "consciousness" because it would be an intellectual answer.
I think I have not yet explored that way. So maybe I am half way through the gate.

I would like your opinion on it.

Kind regards,

Paul

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Jorge786
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Re: Need a little push

Postby Jorge786 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:16 pm

Hi Paul!

I understand you want to understand this, but this issue is not going down that road, you will not understand because it is something else, maybe you should forget everything you learned before, thoughts and expectations about what this is, then stay only with the questions.
there is a "personal consciousness"? or that's totally impersonal?, and then what that may mean?, this is your "consciousness"? Are "YOU" that, in a personal way?

Best regards
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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fnazaldon
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Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:11 am

Re: Need a little push

Postby fnazaldon » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:48 pm

Hi Jorge!
I understand you want to understand this, but this issue is not going down that road, you will not understand because it is something else, maybe you should forget everything you learned before, thoughts and expectations about what this is, then stay only with the questions.
That's fine! My questions are mental activity and they are what they are. I can drop them. This is not the point here, I agree. What I feel is that these questions cannot be answered since precisely it is not about thoughts and understanding.
In a way this is funny: mind wants to keep control!
So I follow you Jorge: questions will remain and that's good!
there is a "personal consciousness"? or that's totally impersonal?, and then what that may mean?, this is your "consciousness"? Are "YOU" that, in a personal way?
What I feel is that personality (and body) are in a way on the surface of something. What is this something, I cannot tell.
What is strange to me is that I really have difficulties to say more about it.
I will investigate more; but in the same time I would appreciate your advices.

Regards,

Paul


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