Please help me - FFS

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niall
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Please help me - FFS

Postby niall » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:27 am

I'm in my mid-50's from Dublin, Ireland and I briefly tired LU a few months back but abandoned the investigation with my guide very quickly due to complete frustration, but I really want to give it another go.
The last 25 years of my life have been spent seeking in one way or another, i first hooked up with an Austrialian spiritual teacher called Barry Long, spent 12 odd years with him and got fuck all from it really.
Then got really into non duality especially around Tony Parsons but its been a couple of years now since I've seen Tony now.
I'm really ready to give this my best shot, I'll do anything that is suggested to me on here if it can help see through this illusion of separation.
Can anyone help me, I'm really ready to give it a go?

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Jorge786
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Re: Please help me - FFS

Postby Jorge786 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:47 am

Hello Niall

I will be your guide if you want

Since you've been here before so you know the commitments:
maintaining contact at least once a day, and
leave any spiritual practice and readings for the moment, and this means also, in some way try to put aside prior learning.

There is an explanation of what we do here, a disclaimer, also a video to watch on the home page (http://www.liberationunleashed.com/), if you have not done yet.

This is a process in which I ask, and you consider what direct experience shows, in all honesty with oneself.

I wonder,
What you expect to get from this conversation, what are your expectations of this?

I look forward to hearing from you

best wishes
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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niall
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Re: Please help me - FFS

Postby niall » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:55 am

Hi Jorge,

Thanks for the offer to guide me, I'm really looking forward to giving it another go.
I think I'm familiar with all the commitments and I'm not engaged in any spiritual practices or readings at the moment, so ready to go. Can't get the video to play for me though but I'll give it another go.
I wonder, What you expect to get from this conversation, what are your expectations of this?
I must admit that one of my big expectations is that my life will in someway or other be a smoother experience when the illusion of self is seen through. I've read so much crap over the years about enlightenment and liberation that I'm pretty much convinced that there has to be a major energetic shift in my seeing and then, as I say, life will somehow become an easier or smoother experience.
For the last few weeks I've managed to concentrate mostly on direct experience which seems to have brought things into some kind of clarity or feelings things in a more natural way.

Looking forward to hearing from you Jorge.

All the best, Niall.

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niall
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Re: Please help me - FFS

Postby niall » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:20 pm

Hi again Jorge,

Further to my expectations of what liberation will be like; there is definitely an expectation/hope that dense/thick recurring thought patterns/emotions that I label me or mine will somehow be dispensed with or at least be made less forceful and sticky.

All the best, Niall.

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Jorge786
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Re: Please help me - FFS

Postby Jorge786 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:30 pm

Your expectations fall within reasonable.
I mean ... glad you do not expect to float through the air with a halo on your head ;-).

I see that you AGREE that it is a change of perception of life ... the way you see it, nothing else, and that makes all the difference.
"... Patterns / emotions That I label me or mine will somehow be dispensed With or at least be made ​​less forceful and sticky ...."
If you know that these patterns of thoughts and emotions are just a label ... then why are "you" affected?,
If you're talking about labels you are talking about a process that may be happening in your brain and nothing else.
Are those mental processes you?
are you these thoughts?


best wishes
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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niall
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Re: Please help me - FFS

Postby niall » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:51 pm

Hi Jorge,
I see that you AGREE that it is a change of perception of life ... the way you see it, nothing else, and that makes all the difference.
Yeah i do know its all about the way life is seen and not thought about. So what is lacking i ask myself? Well it's just not felt, it's still really an intellectual understanding and I'm really sick of it.
f you know that these patterns of thoughts and emotions are just a label ... then why are "you" affected?
Yeah, why am I affected by thoughts/emotions if i don't exist? When i look at the question now it seems that the 'me' who is affected is quite dense and located in a specific place, maybe behind the eyes and in the heart region but that 'me' seems also to be surrounded by total space. Perhaps I'm actually the space?

P
If you're talking about labels you are talking about a process that may be happening in your brain and nothing else.
Are those mental processes you?
are you these thoughts?
No I can't be the mental thoughts/processes, because the processes can get so uncomfortable ad exasperating i would definitely stop them if i could and I can't!

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Jorge786
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Re: Please help me - FFS

Postby Jorge786 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:28 am

Hi Niall,

Ok, you mentioned that you know or know intellectually that you are not those things, accepting that you can not be thought.
Right, the feeling of "I" persists even though we know we're not the thoughts, because we can not control them and therefore can not be us, and we are watching as they arise, how could be the thoughts whether we are looking at them?
Yeah, why am I Affected by thoughts / emotions if i do not exist? When i look at the question now it Seems that the 'I' who is Affected is quite dense and located in a specific place, maybe behind the eyes and in the heart region but that 'me' Seems to be surrounded by Also full space. Perhaps I'm actually the space?
So let's talk about the "me" you speak of,
Look through direct experience,
looking with innocence... like a child... without labels, look inward.
what is this "me" you are talking about,
how does it feel?,
what is that?,
tell me what you see, what you could find.
How that becomes "I"?, can you look at that you call "me"?

Best wishes
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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niall
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Re: Please help me - FFS

Postby niall » Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:52 am

So let's talk about the "me" you speak of,
Look through direct experience,
looking with innocence... like a child... without labels, look inward.
what is this "me" you are talking about,
how does it feel?,
what is that?,
tell me what you see, what you could find.
How that becomes "I"?, can you look at that you call "me"?
Okay Jorge, when I look at 'me' without thought first thing that's encountered is a physical sensation/tension, namely around the eyes, jawbone and mouth and in the heart region.
An increase and decrease in heartbeat is also noticed as thoughts and sensenation arise. The tension that is present and the activity of the heart seems to happen by itself. It doesn't appear that I actually put them there
Looking closer there's a lot of thoughts, feelings and emotions arising. The ones that seem to make the heart beat faster are connected with stuff like relationship with an ex-partner i.e. 'How could she have done that to me?' 'How could she be so selfish?' When sensations like these arise I definitely feel that 'I' am feeling them. I label these feelings 'mine'. But looking closely now all I can really find in reality is the increase heartbeat and then the thought 'How could she blah, blah?' They're just happening by themselves.
There is also some confusion about which occurs first the sensations and then the thoughts or the other way around. Although i have been able to identify in the past that the sensation comes first.

Don't know if I'm making much sense here, but thanks for sticking with this Jorge.

All the best,
Niall.

P.S. I'm looking at your instruction to look with innocence, when I do there's an overwhelming feeling of vulnerability, thoughts and emotions are just flying around the place and it seems that' I' am not in control.

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niall
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Re: Please help me - FFS

Postby niall » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:05 am

Gonna have another go at looking with innocence Jorge.

All that's seen when looking is sensations, mainly in the heart area, quickening and slowing of the heartbeat. Then the mind comes in and adds 'She did this and that, how could she?' over the sensation and all of a sudden 'I' am angry or sad or hurt. The process now seems clear - sensations arise, the mind labels them and all of a sudden 'I' am in some state or other. This how I is created.

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Jorge786
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Re: Please help me - FFS

Postby Jorge786 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:33 pm

Hi Niall

Thanks form your answers, be patient, you are at the start of a (short) walk.

The principal question, the central question here is what is that you're calling "me"
We need to determine (together) if that thing could be exist
if this can not be seen with total clarity, then it must be that there is a doubt, that doubt away from you and look closely.

Everything you say makes perfect sense to me.

and then repeat the initial question:

What is this thing you call "I"?

Best regards
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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niall
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Re: Please help me - FFS

Postby niall » Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:39 pm

Hi Jorge,

What do I refer to as 'me'?

Looking closely now it can be seen that what is being referred to as 'me' is a story. A story with many twists and turns, complexities and happenings. The story is kept in place by thoughts and emotions and physical sensations each feeding off and referencing each other. But it can be seen that it is a story, in fact when its looked closely at it has all the attributes and feeling of a story, yet I've taken it to be 'me' for over 50 years.

When its looked at I can't find any evidence that the story is me, it's seen that there are certain recurring feelings/thoughts/sensations that I have tended to label 'me' more so than some others i.e. 'I'm sad', 'I'm depressed' or 'I'm lonely' when certain feelings arise they seem to be me. Yet looking now it's seen that they are only sensations accompanied by empty thoughts.

Very often forceful sensations in the heart and forehead areas are taken to be 'me'. But again looking closely all that is really present is physical sensation in those areas and empty thought. Looking now there's a feeling of relief and also a feeling of space that surrounds the physical sensations. A sense of one flow of sensation just happening.

Thanks Jorge, gonna take another look later.

Niall.

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Jorge786
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Re: Please help me - FFS

Postby Jorge786 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:59 am

Hi Niall,

Excellent!, you are doing a good "looking"!
A story with many twists and turns, complexities and happenings. The story is kept in place by thoughts and emotions and physical sensations each feeding off and referencing each other.
All right, and then Niall is an story... yes, few memories of what you thought it was. Overall memories supporting the idea that you are an entity as real as the monitor you see in front of you
When its looked at I can't find any evidence that the story is me, it's seen that there are certain recurring feelings/thoughts/sensations that I have tended to label 'me' more so than some others i.e. 'I'm sad', 'I'm depressed' or 'I'm lonely' when certain feelings arise they seem to be me. Yet looking now it's seen that they are only sensations accompanied by empty thoughts.
thoughts generate emotions that in turn generate other thoughts and the cycle continues, but the real issue is whether those thoughts are yours.
Those thoughts, those feelings are born of thee?
You who generates these thoughts?, They belong to you?
if you are an story, nothing real, who is the owner of these thoughts?.
Looking now there's a feeling of relief and also a feeling of space that surrounds the physical sensations. A sense of one flow of sensation just happening.
if do not exist an "I", a "ME", who is the "doer"?,
if do not exist a "doer", then... everything is JUST "happening", that is what yo see?

happy "looking"!

Best regards
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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niall
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Re: Please help me - FFS

Postby niall » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:59 am

Hi Jorge,

Yep I'm still looking. I notice how it's easier to actually look at some stages of the day rather than others. When the thoughts and emotions come thick and fast they seem to form a continuity that I refer to as me.
When this occurs many hours can go by, all apparently lost in thought - lost in me. I keep reminding myself that the actual looking must be very simple - it must be a very simple thing to see that I am not there, it must be very easy to see this if it is actually the case.
Then frustration kicks in hard, I really want to bounce the laptop of the table and there is the feeling that I mustn't be doing it right because I've been at it quite a while now, many months, but it's just not felt, that's all I can say at the moment.
One good thing is I've lost all interest in spiritual stuff completely simply couldn't bear to watch another Youtube from Mooji or any of them. I actually feel that this is in someway an advancement, maybe I'm just dreaming.

Okay I'm going back to looking again.

Cheers for now Jorge.

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Jorge786
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Re: Please help me - FFS

Postby Jorge786 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:31 pm

Yep I'm still looking. I notice how it's easier to actually look at some stages of the day rather than others.
that's perfectly normal, especially within personal interactions.
When the thoughts and emotions come thick and fast they seem to form a continuity that I refer to as me. When this occurs many hours can go by, all apparently lost in thought - lost in me. I keep reminding myself that the actual looking must be very simple - it must be a very simple thing to see that I am not there, it must be very easy to see this if it is actually the case.
Please don't focuses in the thought about what it's... this or that, let it go, pay no attention to those thoughts, these are only "thoughts" nothing more, see like rain, it's raining.

Focuses in the questions
what is real?. do you see these thoughts as yours?
Walk around.
when you walk, there is a "person" there walking, or the walk "just happen"?,
Then frustration kicks in hard, I really want to bounce the laptop of the table and there is the feeling that I mustn't be doing it right because I've been at it quite a while now, many months, but it's just not felt, that's all I can say at the moment.
The time is only a perception in your brain about memories or hopes, the only time really existing is NOW, for me it's a paradox, but it's fine, accept that, the past does not real... the future either, there is no rush for anybody, not for you, not for me, there is no time, the time is now... forever.
One good thing is I've lost all interest in spiritual stuff completely simply couldn't bear to watch another Youtube from Mooji or any of them. I actually feel that this is in someway an advancement, maybe I'm just dreaming
that's good for this moment. There will be time to watch these videos with different eyes. ;-)

I really don't know... perhaps everybody is the dreamer of somebody else, but... who knows!.

Cheers
Jorge.
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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niall
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Re: Please help me - FFS

Postby niall » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:49 pm

Hi Jorge,

Sorry i couldn't post yesterday I had internet problems.
Please don't focuses in the thought about what it's... this or that, let it go, pay no attention to those thoughts, these are only "thoughts" nothing more, see like rain, it's raining
Yeah, I know what I'm looking at is simply life happening - happening to no one - and thought is not going to bring about clear seeing.
Seems I've tried everything though - looking between the thoughts, before them, after them - which arises first sensations or thoughts? etc etc...

"Focuses in the questions
what is real?. do you see these thoughts as yours?
Walk around.
when you walk, there is a "person" there walking, or the walk "just happen"?

It seems to me the only thing I can say is real are sensations in the body, at least they appear to be a lot more real than thoughts. But again they are only sensations arising in a body - doesn't prove that they are 'my' sensations.
The time is only a perception in your brain about memories or hopes, the only time really existing is NOW, for me it's a paradox, but it's fine, accept that, the past does not real... the future either, there is no rush for anybody, not for you, not for me, there is no time, the time is now... forever.
I dunno, you say there's no rush but there does seem to be a huge urgency about the whole thing and it appears to be getting worse. I actually do know very well that time is only something that occurs in a linear sense in the brain because all the glimpses of reality I've had the apparent years have come from that realisation - that it is all occurring here and now. Of course once I had the realisation I tried to repeat it through concentrating on the here and now - with no result.
that's good for this moment. There will be time to watch these videos with different eyes. ;-)
Nah Jorge, I'm convinced I'll never to able to stomach another dose of Adyasillyfuckingnameshanti again - ever!

All the best for now,

Niall.


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