Thread for Ana

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jowate
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Thread for Ana

Postby jowate » Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:47 pm

Hi Ana,

This one is for you - Michelle and I will be doing the guiding. I know you of course, but Michelle doesn't, so maybe you could write a bit about your background 'searching' and what brings you here?

Thanks! T.x

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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Ana » Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:58 pm

Hi,

My background is buddhist and has been so for more than 20 years within the same buddhist movement&order. Besides the dynamics of membership within such a context, I have always allowed myself to think for myself and follow my intuition regardless. 2011 was a very challenging and painful year for me which stopped me in my tracks in many ways and made it hard for me to identify who I am. At some point I noticed that the stories my mind was telling were changing so quickly, sometimes several times a day, that it became hard to believe them any more. Quite disillusioning, 'I' just seems to be an ever-changing occurrence of thoughts and stories which make me believe not only that I 'am' but also who or what I am in relation to the world and people I interact. Since then the way I look at and experience life has gradually changed resulting in taking most things that happen not as serious or literal as I used to, being more able to take them in a playful way. This way I allowed myself to enter into an open space where things are less fixed. This process was accompanied by listening to David Carse (Advaita) and Adyashanti which I found very helpful for a while, but I've stopped listening to them over the last months. All along I sensed that there is more to be explored, and it feels that the time has come now to do so. Being a very slow reader - some people categorized it as dyslectic - I don't tend to read a lot, listening and watching being my primary ways of taking things in. So joining a forum like this doesn't come natural.

Anyway, off we go and thanks for taking me on.

Ana

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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby jowate » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:30 pm

Thanks for that. I'll just post the 'usual requests' which we ask you to undertake while you're doing the direct pointing / looking:

First, please really look at / focus on what the questions are pointing to in direct experience, and respond with complete honesty about your perceptions (e.g. not what you know conceptually or think is the 'right response', but what you directly observe and know now, from immediate experience).

Second, really focus as strongly as possible and look as clearly and comprehensively as you can. To support this, please put aside reading / listening to / watching all other ‘spiritual’ material while you're engaged with this direct pointing process. In fact, as much as possible, avoid any media input that will tend to take you away from the direct looking at the nature of experience.

Really focusing means keeping to the point – the direct pointing is about looking and responding with what you see. ‘Stuff’ that’s happening in your life right now is the fuel for your looking, but we don’t need to know details. ‘Stuff’ is happening to everyone all the time!

And third, try to send a response once a day if you possibly can. If you can't due to travel, that's ok, just do your best. I’ll try to do likewise, though my responses might be a bit less often or brief while I'm on retreat (until 11 Jan). I'm not sure about Michelle, but between us we'll be able to give the attention and feedback you need.

The direct pointing works best if there is a certain intensity of focus.

Let us know If you're ok with these.

Assuming you are, it would be helpful if you could write something about whatever you hope or expect from seeing through the self view / liberation / awakening. What is your sense of what it would it be like? What would you be like when liberated from the view of self?

T.x

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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Ana » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:17 pm

Yes, I am OK with your requests.

What do I hope from or expect from seeing through the self view / liberation / awakening?

This has changed over the years where it started with very idealistic views. When I ask myself now, the first response is 'I don't know”, and this response comes up more often when I am able to look at what happens: my mind jumps to conclusions. But if I manage to look more honestly I have to admit that I don't really know. However, there also seems to be a hope (it has actually ceased to be an expectation) that seeing through will help me to be able to live in accord / resonate with whatever is in the fullest possible way, and that this 'attitude' / way of being may encourage others to do so as well. This feels like something desirable, there is a sense of relief connected with it.

What is my sense of what it would it be like?
I think the second part of my response above touches on it already. The sense I have of it at the moment is that life might turn out to be quite 'ordinary' seen from the outside, yet at the same time 'extraordinary' as I would 'know' its ordinariness and thereby fully accept it, rather than wanting to manipulate it to my or other people's (dis)advantage.

What would I be like when liberated from the view of self?
Again I've already touched on it in my second response. Being liberated from the view of self would still involve a sense of self, a sense of being, with all senses at work and feeling the emotions that arise, but not identifying with them and thereby being driven by them. That comes as closest I can say at the moment, but in the end I don't know.

Ana

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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Shell » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:30 pm

Hello dear Ana,

this is just a quick note to say "hello"! and welcome and how lovely to meet you here :-)
Thank you very much for your clear and honest introduction. I have just set up a communication thread for T and I for the two of us to communicate as we work together with you.

Ich wünsche Dir ein frohliches neues Jahr in mein Heimat, Neuseeland übrigens! Ich werde in Englisch schreiben, aber falls Du etwas doch in Deutsch ausdrücken willst, siehst Du hier dass ich ein Bißchen Detsch schreiben kann..aber ziemlich gut verstehen kannst.
(T, I just wished Ana happy New Year in my home country in german...and said I would be replying in english here...but that if she ever should want to express something in german...that I do understand).

Alles liebe, much love,
Shell xx

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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Ana » Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:43 am

Dear Shell and T.

ja, ich freue mich auf unsere Zusammenarbeit. Bin sehr froh und dankbar dafür und es ist gut zu wissen, dass ich im Falle des Falles auch auf Deutsch umschwenken kann.

yes, I look forward to working together with you two. I'm glad and feel grateful about this and it's good to know, that I can switch to German, in case I need to.

I will continue writing in English for the time being.
Wishing you all the best for the New Year.
Much love, und tschüss

Ana

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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby jowate » Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:02 pm

Dear Ana,

Happy new year! (as I just checked, it’s already 2013 in NZ, although it’s still 2012 here in Europe – a good demo of how relative ‘time’ is!)

Thanks for your responses to the ‘expectations’ questions. I thought your responses were very ‘reasonable’ i.e. realistic. ‘I don’t know’ is probably the best one can say, and it’s a good attitude to bring to this investigation – the thinking mind doesn’t know and cannot know.

What you wrote about being able to ‘live in accord / resonate with whatever is in the fullest possible way’ and encouraging others is realistic too. And yes, life beyond self-view is both ordinary and extraordinary. The dropping of that view is obviously not the end of the process as there is a lot of habit-energy (samskara) which has been ‘locked in’ by the view of a really-existing ‘me’. But seeing through that is like ‘cutting through the tap-root’ and the habit-energies (which result in suffering / finding life unsatisfactory) will inevitably dry up for lack of sustenance.

It’s true that there is still a ‘sense’ of self and that apparent ‘selfing’ continues (that’s another term for habit-energy) but seeing directly that there really is no self in all this is the ‘difference that makes all the difference’.

Probably you have a strong sense or feeling that there is no ‘me’ here, but it’s likely it really needs to ‘sink in’, and a lot of that is about letting go of doubts and beliefs around the existence of ‘self’.

So let’s just continue succinct statement of what we’re looking at in order to see-know it directly:
There is no ‘self’, no ‘me’, no ‘I’, and there never has been. The sense of ‘self’ and what appears to be ‘selfing’ behaviour have always arisen in the complete absence of any truly existing ‘I’.


So what feelings, thoughts and emotions come up in relation to this? Look / focus carefully and write it down as clearly as you can.

Much love, T.x

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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Shell » Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:23 pm

Hi Ana, in tandem to T's post and questions, I just want you to know that the "I dont know" starting point can be one of the, if not THE most helpful. LIke you are really really LOOKING for the first time..like a new born babe, like an alien just landed here...ie you know "nothing" intellectually...and you use DE (direct experience) right now, in this stage of the process.

Unlke you and T, I dont come from a long lineage of Buddhist learnings and practices. Although I really respect and love it and even know what "samskara" means. This is going to be good for you. Im going to ask you here and now to answer as if you are answering to someone who knows nothing of the buddhist language. You and T can chat along in that language, no issues there...However, when it is SEEn, there is a capablitiy to write about it simply in your own words without refering to a special language. I dont write to you in french, do I?

This is meant to be helpful, not by any means an attack!

I guess I am trying to say..as hard as it is to do (so it seems) forget everything you thought you ever knew and approach this as a new born babe/ aline who knows quite literally nothing about this world.

You are sitting in lovely NZ. For sure you will have ample opportunity to do the following:

find a quiet place in a park or natural forest like setting. Be seated. Close eyes. Blink eyes open as if for the first time ever ever ever. You dont know language, you dont know history, you dont know buddhsim, you dont know anything about a human body. Your first view is what is encompassed when the eyes are blinked open. When the ears are blinked open.

Is what is seen in this moment simply one frame, utterly full, with no separation whatsoever? ie, the seen and the seeing occur simultaneously, the heard and what is heard occur simultaneously, the thoughts flow and they are also just part of the "frame" occuring simultaneously, in no way separate to the entire frame of life in that moment. Ie, the experiencer, the experienced and the experencing are entirely inseparable and arising simultaneously.

A New Zealand national park would be a great setting for this exercise ;-)

Please report, Ana, from your DE, what comes up for you when I say this?

Althought you dont like to read because of dyslexia, please do read the following link. We just want to make sure that we are on the same page with what we mean by direct LOOKing/ Experiencing.

http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012_ ... chive.html

Much love,
Shell and T xxx

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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Ana » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:19 pm

Dear T. and Shell,

Happy New Year! I'll make a start though I will take more time for some of the things you asked me to do.

Buddhist lingo: I'm not aware of writing in 'buddhist', at least I don't intend to . So if I did, please do point it out. In fact, what made it very attractive for me to join this process within LU, was that it would provide a platform where I can express myself outside of my buddhist conditioning and context. Interestingly enough, when reading T.'s post I resonated immediatedly with the term 'habit-energy', and only then saw the word 'samskara' behind it where I noticed a mixed response, being delighted to see a refreshing new way of referring to this old buddhist term, but also a resistance to use this language in this process. (This could be seen as an advantage of my dyslexia, I often have to read word for word and it varies a lot if and when the words I have read start to relate to each other and finally 'make sense'.) There seemed to be more references (in brackets) to buddhist way of thinking, and I wasn't sure if T. was trying to 'translate' for me, if that was the case, T., that's very kind but please don't and trust that I understand or, if I don't, that I will ask for clarification.

T., I resonate with what you wrote that it’s likely that my sense or feeling that there is no ‘me’ here really needs to ‘sink in’. This is what I sensed for a while now (and what I mentioned in my intro) but feel somehow stuck. So when you ask me about my feelings, thoughts and emotions in relation to

“There is no ‘self’, no ‘me’, no ‘I’, and there never has been. The sense of ‘self’ and what appears to be ‘selfing’ behaviour have always arisen in the complete absence of any truly existing ‘I’.“

there are different responses. One being 'yes, of course' and this is not purely intellectual. On the other hand I can sense a fear about what would be 'left'. My emotional responses to stiuations or people in my life seem to indicate this as well, though often it is only with hindsight that I recognize the 'selfing' having been at work when I manage to look at my experience, say with the urge to manipulate, more closely. Noting the act or urge to manipulate more than often points me back to the sense of 'self' that needs to be protected somehow. Seeing and admitting that to myself comes both with a sense of relief but also fear as I realize that this would mean looking more deeply or asking myself uncomfortable questions, and most of the time this is where the process stops.

Anyway, it still feels as if I might have written down this last bit too quickly, and that I should 'sit' with it longer. So I'll leave it here but might come back to it. Shell, so far I've read the text but hadn't had much time to investigate in the things you suggest, so will have to come back to that later.
Bye for now.
Much love

Ana

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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Shell » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:59 am

Hi dear Ana,

Thank you for your post. We look forward to hearing the results of your direct LOOKING from the exercise I suggested you you. Im glad you read the link, because it is essential that you know what we mean with D.E (direct experience).

Its very common that fear arises at this point. Dont resist it. Just look directly and see what fear is trying to protect and report your findings when you can.

Love, Shelle and T

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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Ana » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:23 am

Dear Shell and T.,

I've started to do the exercise that Shell suggested (by the way, I'm based in Christchurch at the moment, but that'll do as well) and will keep exploring it. It took me a while to get a sense what you wanted me to do. At first when I blinked my attention was mainly on 'seeing' and only when I had another go later in the day my attention started to widen and I started to 'see' with all my senses, noting that seeing, hearing, smelling tasting etc. happen parallelly. It was another step to note that I was seeing even when my eyes are closed – it's just an idea that the eyes have to be open in order to see. I did this in a relaxed way not expecting me to 'understand' anything, and that way I noticed more the change of the colours and shapes when blinking, hearing sounds come and go, smelling smell, tasting taste and feeling touch as such without 'interpreting', and it only occurs to me now that up to now I don't seem to have been aware of my thoughts. I then tried the exercise with keeping the eyes open once blinked open (i.e. not closing them instantly). The experience soon became similar, and when allowing myself not having to make sense of my experience I just 'dwelled' in this sensoury field in a relaxed and curious way. It occurs only now, as I write it down, that in those moments this all came together there only seemed to be experience or experiencing where the differenciation between the experiencer, the experienced and the act of experiencing becomes superfluous, actually is artificial. When you wrote, Shell, that “the experiencer, the experienced and the experencing are entirely inseparable and arising simultaneously” my first response was “yes, I have heard that before and I intuite this but I can't tell from my own experience.” and it feels now that the latter is actual possible. Though I can feel some doubt nagging and asking 'are you sure?'.
Anyway, I don't know if this was what you wanted me to do, but this is what I did (so far).

Though I think I will try to remember to look in this way during moments of fear or anxiety, maybe this will point to what they are trying to protect. See how it goes, I'll let you know.

Much love

Ana

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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby jowate » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:53 pm

Hi Ana,

I just noticed that a post I wrote and thought I'd sent yesterday seems to have vanished into the ether! Anyway, I was just saying that I'm glad you don't need or want 'buddhist' translations. In fact adding 'samskaras' was the only time I did this in the last one from me. Thanks for your response anyway - the sense of both relief and fear is very understandable. The looking here will likely at times be uncomfortable to the entrenched (dualistic) views that cause all kinds of trouble, but it's also very likely that the sense of relief will increase more and more!

No other questions from me for now, as you're still looking at Shell's

T.x

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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Shell » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:28 pm

When you wrote, Shell, that “the experiencer, the experienced and the experencing are entirely inseparable and arising simultaneously” my first response was “yes, I have heard that before and I intuite this but I can't tell from my own experience.” and it feels now that the latter is actual possible. Though I can feel some doubt nagging and asking 'are you sure?'.
Hi dear Ana,

Christchurch as I knew it remains only in my memory. You would not recognise Christchurch the way I would describe it to you from memory. What is memory, Ana? Is a memory a thought..that when believed in conjures up an image(s) and perhaps loads of stories based around the memory? Is any of it true now in your DE?

If I say to you, that linear time is a vast illusion, what comes up for you, from your own DE? (And not from any texts you have studied or marvellous literature you could quote...). What comes up for you when I say this, and you look VERY DE? Please report you DE findings, including "memory" which belongs to a non- existant past. Or does it?
At first when I blinked my attention was mainly on 'seeing' and only when I had another go later in the day my attention started to widen and I started to 'see' with all my senses, noting that seeing, hearing, smelling tasting etc. happen parallelly.
Yes, Ana. This is the simple view of the appearing and disappearing "world". It happens simulatansously, the whole frame of the picture, as you have discovered through DE.
It was another step to note that I was seeing even when my eyes are closed – it's just an idea that the eyes have to be open in order to see.
Yes, Ana. This DE has shown that in fact, the eyes do not see and the ears do not hear and the body does not feel and the brain does not think. But, dont believe a word I say...DE it further for yourself. This DE has indicated at minimum, that there is nothing so blinding as perception of form....Excellent DE work, Ana. Well done.
It occurs only now, as I write it down, that in those moments this all came together there only seemed to be experience or experiencing where the differenciation between the experiencer, the experienced and the act of experiencing becomes superfluous, actually is artificial.
Yes, Ana. Now you have "SEEn" this. Bravo!

Ana...now it is time to do the same exercies again. But this time around...please allow the monkey chatter of thoughts to be part of it.

Tell me, in your next report, whether any of this experience, which includes thoughts, is personal to you? Or, is it all, including the thoughts, simply arising and disappearing to aris and disappear all over again?

You had the discovery - not my telling you - your discovery, that experiencer and what is experienced and the experiencing is all a superficial and untrue presentaion of what is happening (life lifing, if you will).

So, it seems you think that thoughts are still personal and perhaps inside and not outside.

LOOK Ana. Is there really an "inside" (thoughts) and an "outside" (world). Or is it all just one show appearing frame by frame?

Is ANY of this personal to a "you"?


Im pushing you hard but I dont know when you will have internet connection on your travels.

Your last question from me is a request:, Ana, please tell me when and how you got the Ana identity? When did you learn the "I" was you, and that the world of separation, the world of "I" and "others" was real?.

You might find it necessary to watch babies, for I dont think you have reared your own yet. You might find it necessary to think back to your own very early growing up. Tell me please, when and specifically "how" and who from, that you learnt that you were Ana, and that you are separate. Tell me please, how this learning was drilled into you over and over and over again through growing up, school, family and society.

You may recognise with this question, WHY I gave you the specific exercie that I did and which you you just answered in your most recent post? I hope so;-)

Looking foward to you full and DE report. Throw all previous learning out and start as if you were a babe all over. OK?

Much love,

Shell xxxx



Bravo.

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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Shell » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:32 pm

Ana, something went wrong with the quoting function, but Im sure that you will recognise that I quoted you...and that the quotes in the post above are not from Jowate. xxxx

xxxx

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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Ana » Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:21 am

Dear Shell and T.,

thanks for your questions and suggestions, I welcome them, so keep 'pushing'. It'll show when I find them overwhelming. I'll just reply as best as I can every day. By the way, I will be travelling within NZ from 20th Jan to 10th Feb and will have laptop and dongle with me.

What is memory? Is a memory a thought..that when believed in conjures up an image(s) and perhaps loads of stories based around the memory? Is any of it true now in my DE?

Yes, Christchurch, as I first encountered it two years ago, looks and feels quite different and is changing rapidly, every day, and renders clinging to memories obviously useless.
Looking at my memories, say of Christchurch, I can see that they often carry an emotional element that defines me in relation to how I think it used to be at the time. But I've noticed that the content of a memory of a particular place or situation can be changing. Seeing this makes it hard, no let's face it, impossible to really believe my memories and the stories connected with it.
ARRGH, could 'I' have something to hold on to please!
Mixed response again, relief and uneasiness about letting go of the reference points in my life, and also seeing the engergy that went into replacing those reference points with other ones that I prefer. 'Who' would 'I' be without my memories? I don't know. Do I need to know? Maybe not. The 'knowing' would just be another way of defining 'I'. Feels like I just need to jump and trust the process – 'just'. Actually, I have 'jumped' before (otherwise I wouldn't be writing to you here), and it didn't kill me, well it did, but it opened new space to what was left of 'me'. Looking at it now, terms like 'jumped' or 'open space' or 'experience' are just words, ideas or thoughts, an at times somewhat desperate attempt to explain (my) existence or life as such. But once those thoughts have arisen, they will eventually fade completely or become a memory.

So yes, memories are thoughts and make up together with all other sensual experience a potpourrie out of which existence creates itself.

Thoughts come and go, like everything else, though they can be so tempting to identify with. Looking at this I realize that I have no control over them really. They are not mine, and even though most of the time I assume I can, I can't make them happen. I don't know where they come from or where they go. Most of them seem to arise on their own accord without any evident reason or context. When I'm thinking about something, most of the time this means some form of indulgence in thoughts and concepts and the emotional element that so often seems to be connected with them, being caught up with their (literal or emotional) content rather than what they might be pointing towards – this way only more 'selfing' is happening. DE seems to subside conceptual thinking. And describing what one is seeing involves a reverse process of finding words to point at the seen.

Enough words for today, it's bed time for me. I haven't said much yet about "inside" (thoughts) and an "outside" (world), also about linear time being a vast illusion, and how I got the Ana identity. In this context I meant to ask in how much detail I should go into describing how learning who I am was drilled into me over again through growing up, school, family and society?

Much love

Ana


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