seperation sucks

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Anja
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seperation sucks

Postby Anja » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:48 pm

Me, You, defense, protection, fear .. I am so sick of it!

Will somebody please help me with this annoying identity-thing.
Been following this forum for a while now and never quite felt the right „impetus“ to request a guid e.

It is no more listening to that teacher, the other guru, investigating my thoughts using the work of Byron Katie … no more distractions.. I am ready! I will put all „other“ search activities to one side and really LOOK for the truth.

What comes to mind now is my expectations for this process and although i have assembled a long list of them, I can FEEL the energy of these as a contraction in my body... so basically they stress me.... apart from: Inspiration (now that feels good and it is kind of an expectation!).

Now, I need a real „I-“Extinguisher/Terminator out there. Please root this thing out once and for all – pleeeeeaaaase!

I may not be an easy case – as I have my nose up high – with a superiority complex (inflated/deflated thinking you call it i think...)

I am half-way thru the „gateless gatecrashers“, but somehow keep getting distracted reading it.
Found Tony Parsons recently (this summer) extremely helpful as he completely refuses to enter the personal self and Ananta's pure presence. Read and watched – almost all – on the LU website including links … Lisa, Natalie Gray. Followed the enlightening quotes on youtube and as app. Following the app already „did“ something, „pushed“ maybe?

Just remembered: one year ago I did a „emotional intelligence and the work“ course and somehow I found myself laughing my head at the notion of „myself“ - I could so clearly see that it was not true. Whenever I started a sentence for weeks after I could barely say „I“ - without laughing and knowing that it simply was not true. This kind of stopped the urge to communicate for a while, justing wanting to be quiet.

Since then, I have completely immersed myself in this I thing again, most noticably in a currently very painful feeling of seperation.

Right, this may read like a compilation of „I“ already – done this, read that.. but I guess you wanted to know some background info... ?

But, as I said I will put all that aside now.

Thank you for considering „my application“ ;-))

Anja

on second thought maybe a „gentle“ terminator will also do the trick!

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Jorge786
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Re: seperation sucks

Postby Jorge786 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:56 pm

Hello Anja!

pleased to see your post.

I will be your guide if you want...
And you will be your own "terminator" ;-)
Although even that is slightly correct because what needs to be kill is only an illusion.

So, I realize that you're aware of the commitments:
maintaining contact at least once a day, and
leave any spiritual practice and readings for the moment.
is that correct?

In the homepage (http://www.liberationunleashed.com/), There is an explanation of what we do here, a disclaimer, Also a video to watch, if you not done yet.

This is a process where I ask, and you consider it seeing deep inside in your direct experience what shows up, with complete honesty with yourself.

well ... say you have a long list of expectations about this, I wonder ... What are they?

I look forward to hearing from you

btw.. nothing to defend and nothing to protect

best wishes
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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Anja
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Re: seperation sucks

Postby Anja » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:17 pm

Hi Jorge,

thank you for responding so quickly. Well, I followed the instructions on the app and here is my list of expectations:

When the I is seen as an illusion that thinking no longer dominates life
Relief
Relaxation
Non-sticky /feelings do not stick but just pass through
Non-resistance
You to pose a question which releases all that pent up energy
Inflated/deflated thinking stops – or can be experienced without resistance
Experience more gratefulness
Lasting seeing thru the illusion
Less/no emotional drama
Stop being in the past or future
Stop identifying with stories of “I”
Feeling of humbleness safe
Being at home in the flow
Knowing that there is nothing to know

I have to say that this "expectations thing" feels like I am moving into the future with a touch of "controling" - this is causing me some discomfort right now. So I am even noticing a resistance to look at these expections. It takes me away from looking RIGHT NOW, it seems.

I have read everything on the website and I am ready and willing to carry on... after all it took me 6 months to finally "do it".. like I said I have enough dabbling a bit here and there, this searching is causing me too much energy. Well. this in fact brings me to some sort of expectation .. that the SEARCHING ends...

Thank you for doing this with me,
Anja

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Anja
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Re: seperation sucks

Postby Anja » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:51 pm

You know, Jorge, I am getting all EXCITED about this. Another sign of expectation? Maybe. Cannot help it, but thought I would share this with you, as I have noticed that it is ok to share one's experience anytime. Or would you rather for me to wait for your reply before? I am all THRILLED and then there is a thought/contraction/fear? - need to defend/hold on to this, might loose it... thank god it is only a thought ;-))

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Jorge786
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Re: seperation sucks

Postby Jorge786 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:33 pm

Hello Anja!

Ok, nothing to worry, it's normal to be excited, you're doing a great job of looking deeply

Have a very nice list of expectations,
all right, lets start...
you said
Lasting seeing thru the illusion
What is this illusion you speak?,
Please fully describe that illusion you are talking about.
How does it feel to think that what you speak is an illusion?
Stop being in the past or future
How can you be in the past or in the future?,
How the past or the future affect you right now?,
How is it at this very moment?

Best regards
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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Anja
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Re: seperation sucks

Postby Anja » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:08 pm

Hi Jorge,

thank you – this one for one is the best xmas present ever – your questions stopped my thinking for a while .. to be followed by „ a grand display of fireworks/thoughts“ in my mind. ( I am assuming that is where thoughts are at home ;-)))

At first it was nice and quiet and I realized that I take over concepts without thoroughly testing them or investigating their truth/reality. So I appreciate you asking me to fully describe the illusion that I am talking about. „Illusion“ is a lovely word – so accommodating of a lot of concepts – it is only a word which attempts to describe what is not REAL. Seeing thru what is not REAL.

hang on – let me just check whether i am writing this to please you or which is what I am honestly finding without a motive....

ok, I think i am „clean“ ;-))

My thoughts are not REAL. Yes I think it all comes down to what is real and what is not. But then what IS REAL? I can go along with the „a table is real“ and „Santa is not“ to a certain extent. Is what I see or touch or smell REAL or not another illusion? After all we do not always agree on everything as being real... but I have just noticed that I am diving more and more into analysis and thinking. When I look outside the window I see what we have all agreed on/I have learned to be houses, trees, sun shining, I hear sounds of a motorcycle (I try to relax into the sound, as I have some resistance /story about „them“)...

For example: I guess, I expect to see thru the illusion when speaking to somebody. My painful story is „she likes to humiliate me“ - I would like to just see JUST WHAT IS - „what is in front of me“ – a woman that speaks?, there are mimics, whatever, but this is not PERSONAL -
I expect that if I really saw thru the absence of an „I“ - to clearly SEE that this is really just a concept that I could no longer suffer.

In the past I have found that of course it is me who likes to humiliate others (could not see it at first, but then, oh boy, I could find it more and more) – so I see this as a grand scheme of „whoever created all this“ (ok, I have no proof and it is really not necessary to have somebody doing this... in fact how peaceful it feels right now, if there was noone claiming to have created anything...

hmmm good feeling just now – it really takes away a lot of pressure and I feel more relaxed...

In this moment now, I cannot find an „illusion“ - another word that takes away from the simplicity of life.

So to answer your questions „how does it feel to think that what you speak is an illusion“ - the feelings/sensations are: tension, contraction in the body, frowning, clenching of my teeth – so there is an energy contraction. It feels sticky and strenuous – not easy. I guess I am believing that there is so much I need to explore within this concept – very tiring – so much easier to live without this concept – arriving back in the „here and now“ - simple...

Which brings me to your second question (s):
How can you be in the past or in the future?,
How the past or the future affect you right now?,
How is it at this very moment?

Oh that's easy! (smile) – just take a thought which leads to another and another and I am right in the middle of the past or future.
Now, there are „bits“ of past and „bits“ of future – being very near past or future. Whenever I say now, it is at the same time already past and future. This does not count ;-))

I am referring to THOUGHTS about the past or future, how one day I will be sleeping under a bridge and other horror scenarios – or how I exactly picture out how a certain event is going to be like (of course I know exactly how it will be like – and you know – I am just realizing that I WILL be like that, because of course I am always right...;-))

Thoughts about the past or future „as such“ affect me in that now I feel stressed or peaceful – depending on the thought. Usually it is thoughts about the future that frighten me.

Current example: „She said she would ring me tomorrow“ - this thought makes me tense right now up until the phone rings.
I believe that „I am not free“ - I suspect that it would help tremendeously if the „i“ was really SEEN as not there so that this thought collapses before it even starts its life (so my theory).

This very moment I feel slightly tense, on edge – some contraction underneath my shoulders. Again it seems this „i am not free“ has a hold on me.. I wish I could see „I am not“ as true.

I feel I am getting from one story to the next in responding to your questions. There is no proof for any of this..

„This very moment“ is lovely – cannot quite snuggle up to it, like sometimes, but it is like „time out“ from the thought carussel.

Curious what you make of all this and grateful that you are „there“ or me.

Anja*

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Anja
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Re: seperation sucks

Postby Anja » Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:31 pm

More on Illusion that came up:
What is this „Illusion“ - a clever concept, a word to describe what I „learned“ about it. If I had not learned a meaning – say I would be an alien who comes from out of space – this could also describe a piece of fruit, or a hobby, etc, etc (you pick your choice).
But again, even this is learned.
My own experience of „Illusion“ ? Nothing I can grasp or see or feel – empty – it seem an added something to make life more complicated – or a bit of story to make life more exciting, Playfull???
At the moment I am more inclined to cut life back to basics - without the "frills". So to cut "it all" back to "THIS" kinda works for me at the moment..
.. until I get a thought like "she does not want to speak to me/she is still upset" occurs (about 30 mins ago a phone call from the family wishing happy xmas) and i get this discomfort in my body. Ok so being with this sensation as just "THIS" - without looking for "my" story would be a strategy. But wouldn't taking the "I" out of the equation save me all this and leave me in this peaceful state whatever thought comes up, as it is simply no longer believed to be true???

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Jorge786
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Re: seperation sucks

Postby Jorge786 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:04 am

The brain will never stop to produce thoughts, but those thoughts are "you"?.
Thoughts are just that, come and go, not let being the "I"
Leave aside the concepts we have learned and focus on look deep within ourselves, we will leave expectations aside for now.
You say you can go along with a "table is real and Santa is not", now let's see if the "I" is real, I do not speak of "your" body, "your" senses or "your" thoughts,
I talk about the "idea" that "you" exist .
From what you are releasing is that "identity" you think you are.
Is there any Anja?, What is Anja?, What is "you"?, Is your memory of past events?, Is a cluster of thoughts?, Is your body?, Look deep within you, ask yourself, I exist as an entity?
Sure you can take out of the equation the factor "I", and that's it, no one will become a "state" of peace, just be at peace.

Merry Christmas and Happy look inside ;-)

Best wishes to you
Jorge

PD ¿Santa its not real? omg! :P
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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Anja
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Re: seperation sucks

Postby Anja » Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:19 pm

Is there any Anja?
My first impulse was to defend and say: well, the outside world seems to suggest that there is an Anja. There is a passport, emails are addressed to Anja, people refer to me as a seperate person etc..
Second Impulse: The “I” rules over body, senses, thoughts – this notion was true for about 1 min until it occurred to me that “I” have no control over these – so this idea was seen as untrue.

But this wouldn't be honest looking, just learned behaviour /reaction I guess.

When I look – there is still story going on: do you mean to say that there is no Anja? , there is a sadness that I believed in this all this time, it's a joke.

The “I” is a collection of a bit of body, a bit of thinking, a bit of senses, and many extra pieces that the mind can think of. It reminds me of the example Ilona gave once: a university does not exist, it is a collection of buildings, students, professors, books, and that bit “extra” (the belief in..??) . So I guess the I is just the same.. not an entity – a collective term more so.

When I look again, I smile, realizing I cannot find THE Anja - and kinda of a feeling of wholeness happens.

What is Anja?
A collection of ideas, descriptions– stories, attached to that Name – take your pick. I like that you are not asking “who is Anja” - because that would really be going into mysterious places.
What is Anja – a product. It is this person with thoughts, sensations, stories, identities.
What is Anja behind all those labels? – I have no idea...

What is “I”?
Cannot say – I could repeat those boring old stories .. and yet a voice is telling me: without stories life is soooo boring! Girls just wanna have fun!

“I” make your life more interesting – is it true?
It bloody well is NOT true - “YOU” are interferring with LIFE PLAYING OUT!
This one is getting into an argument with the “I” Thing.
Hey, you do not exist, how about that! - GET LOST! Hear me – just get LOST!!!

To sum it all up: “I” is just a word – a label that you can stick on anything “you” like.. or you believe in.

I see that “I” is just a label – but I am not sure “I” am TRULY seeing it..

However I had a wonderful “experience” last night:
I am watching/listening to the x-mas orarotorium by Bach on youtube and how this “experience” is different .. I notice that I can simply listen to it without story – I noticed that I would usually establish a relationship to a „me“ – how can I put it ...listening to the piece – fully enjoying the DIRECT experience – without a „me“ story – wow nice...

PS: Sorry Jorge to have broken the news about “Santa” ;-)))

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Jorge786
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Re: seperation sucks

Postby Jorge786 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:32 pm

When I look again, I smile, realizing I cannot find THE Anja - and kinda of a feeling of wholeness happens.
Right!, you cannot find Anja,
(go back to that feeling) and Now, Right Now... what that's mean?, how can that be?
don't respond from memory of you've read before, look inside

waiting for a reply
I'll be back ;-)
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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Anja
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Re: seperation sucks

Postby Anja » Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:55 pm

Cannot say what it means yet.
Need to look deep inside again – could for a moment clearly see there is no Anja – I mean there REALLY is no Anja.
Then thoughts again about situations of my life interfering.
I remember this to be a “ a merging feeling”, not something I can go back to “just like that” at the moment.
Quite tired now, will carry on looking in bed...
N8!

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Jorge786
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Re: seperation sucks

Postby Jorge786 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:31 pm

Girls just wanna have fun! (a good one)
perhaps all!

No. .. life is not boring without the "I".
In fact it is more "complete", no one is telling you to go to a monastery and follow a life of contemplation, life is more "joyfully", truly;
is now that you really need to go to the "roller coaster" for fun, after that you will not need it, the enjoyment comes from within.

Your example of the university is fully functional, and says a lot, you're just that set of things put together and named as "Anja".

See how we used much the word "university" so that we are not even aware of the process of "labeling", but the process is still there, the same with all labels, a good is "Country", in this case because can produce a feeling, patriotism, sense of belonging, other things.
"Anja" produces a sense of "I"
you can liberate of that, intensely wondering if you really exist or you're nothing more than a label such as "University" or "Country"

Sorry, I never asked you what time zone you were ... sleep well

Love
Jorge
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!

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Anja
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Re: seperation sucks

Postby Anja » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:58 am

I can relate to your example of country - all the feelings, sense of belonging - however I associate these with the label "university". It would be so lovely to be liberated of those associations.

Kept looking this morning and I ended up feeling sad and crying. Trying to feel what it felt like when really seeing worked a little better, and a hint of amusement followed. I remember also asking "where is Anja" when looking and that kind of worked..? it gets "the search going" and of course "no Anja to be found " - it makes me smile now when I look at it .. and now there is sadness again and tears.

I usually have this forum open much of the day. I am 6 hours ahead of you and will be able to look at our conversation again at 4 pm this afternoon (10 am) your time. I have a good friend visiting today, who i only see once a year, I kind of did not want any "destraction" ... but it just worked out that way....

It will be interesting to see if I can just let the emotions have their life while "somebody" is around.. ;-))

Love to you
Anja

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Anja
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Re: seperation sucks

Postby Anja » Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:12 pm

After looking again and asking "what is I" - I realized how much this life revolved around something imagined. A different clarity happened to before. All these hopeless attempts to capture, find, improve, protect something that isn't really there.
And how different, open, relaxed it feels without this "I".
I did not look within, but somehow saw this "I" outside myself - well, it did not see it of course. But as something that I have been "dealing with " (not sure this is a good word for it) outside of me. When I look inside there is no "I" . So I guess I found it outside of me and - of course, did not really find it, but discovered it to be a kind of "carrot" to go after..and once i get close to it, it moves on...

does this make sense??

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Jorge786
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Re: seperation sucks

Postby Jorge786 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:57 pm

You are doing a great job ... keep going

For many people it is common to have feelings of sadness or fear, those feelings may be there, not reject, rather you can ask, at this moment:
what is the thought that makes you sad?,
Why are you afraid?,
what gives you worth?
just watch those feelings... they are not "you", (nothing are you, you don't exist)
All These hopeless Attempts to capture, find, Improve, Protect Something That is not really there.
Exactly, there's nothing in there you can "working on it"
You do not liberate "it", you get rid of "it", you get rid of the illusion of "I"

You can not see the "I" out of you because it does not exist, there is nothing, like a zero, empty, nothing.
and there is nobody "here" who can see the I "outside"

Look ... If there is not an "I", nor is there a "doer", no one is there who is "taking charge" of your life.
It is also an illusion that you are in control of the situation.
What feelings appear when you read this?

The mind is always following carrots, this is not about carrots is about "always looking for something"...
even "enlightenment"
Tu no eres lo que piensas!
you are not what you think!


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