Wondering if Metta777 can help for round 2 seeing?

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Wondering if Metta777 can help for round 2 seeing?

Postby Crow » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:14 pm

Howdy. This is my second go around. I had a wonderful guide before, but we couldn't link up. I have been looking around and am hoping Metta777 can guide me to un- me-ness. I am not trained in any spiritual practice. I have read some Eckhart Tolle (who hasn't), Ken Wilbur, and Andrew Cohen. So I do have some notion as to what " Awakening " might be. Honestly though I just don't know. I am looking for simple help. I am not very logical and lack a mathematic brain. I fear that the simple logic of " seeing " is lost on me. I am hoping that is not the case. After reading the Gateless Gatecrashers I have had two separate experiences of complete oneness. Both times were amazing and lasted for hours. Then " I " came back. Frustration, sadness, and fear came with "me". I came to learn that these states, although pleasurable, were not awakening. I may not be ready, but I'm here and I'm hungry for this. I feel like I was lead here and it is a safe place to let old ideas die. I know all of you are busy waking folks and the holidays are here, but i'd love another shot. Blessings.

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Re: Wondering if Metta777 can help for round 2 seeing?

Postby Metta777 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:11 am

Sure, I would be happy too. If you were here before you know the agreements, correct. Daily contact, put aside any other spiritual practice temporarily, answer the questions as openly and honestly as possible. What are your expectations as to what awakening or enlightenment mean? How do you think it will change your life? Tell me a little bit more about yourself. Thanks, Regards, Metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: Wondering if Metta777 can help for round 2 seeing?

Postby Crow » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:01 am

Thank you so much for your time Metta! I agree to daily contact, stopping spiritual practice and open, honest discourse.

When I think about awakening I think about what a relief it must be to not connect with a sense of self. I imagine seeing emotions, feelings, stories, memories come and go without being personal, sticky, or "self" creating. I think it will change my relationships. If what I read here is true, then relating to someone as no-one but instead as " experience " must be a huge change. This makes me a bit nervous. I want it to be true that it is the " flow" that directs the show. I expect over time to have old, habitual, stories about myself fall away so that better decisions, are made and a deep peace pervades.

A bit about me. I'm an actor so I'm good at playing characters. I have built an identity of a person who is not good enough, lazy, self pitying and depressive. In recent years I have seen these to be not true. They carry less electrical charge then they used to. They are still present as labels about myself, but I am watchful now. I've had about 4 rather deep spiritual experiences in life that have shown me there is a great, silent, powerful, creative, flow underneath all the noise of ME. So the truth of me is no longer as strong as it used to be. If that true feeling of abiding, peace and connection can be felt minus the noise of me, could it be there is no me and another way? I am split down the middle and it is uncomfortable. Ignorance is bliss I guess. I hope in my heart that Awakening is true and attainable.
Again thank you for your time Metta.

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Re: Wondering if Metta777 can help for round 2 seeing?

Postby Metta777 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:55 pm

It is my pleasure Crow. Well, first thing, put all expectations aside for now and go with the flow you mentioned. Any mention of you or me is strictly for communication purposes as there is no you or me.
From the very beginning we are taught labels and concepts. This is a dog, this is a tree, this is good ,this is bad, etc. If I were to call a dog a parrot would it be any less of a dog? Our mind is a labeling machine, which is fine, we are living in a dualistic existence. However we have to find what is true and real. Labels are really irrelevant, most of the time ,except for computers.
So if you were to see a field and then a line of trees it would be very apparent where the end of the field is and the trees begin. So sit quietly, close your eyes and see if you can find the end of your awareness and the beginning. Is the Universe still there?
Are thoughts your identity? Feelings? Any nervousness or anxiety is natural, if it comes stay with it, does it center anywhere in the body in particular? Ego will not like this. Just let it flow, any feelings that come may have a message for us, so we observe and let pass. Kind of like sitting on the porch, you see cars and people passing, you notice them, but they have no real interest to you. You might like the book called. " The Impersonal Life".
Mind is just chatter, after awhile there would be a shift in perception, but mind doesn't go away. I don't want to hit you with too much at once, so for now this is good.
"This too shall pass"

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Re: Wondering if Metta777 can help for round 2 seeing?

Postby Crow » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:45 pm

Hello Metta. Thank you. I'm trying to surrender to the process here and be in the Flow. I have some questions and observations based on the seeing you asked me to do.
Our mind is a labeling machine, which is fine, we are living in a dualistic existence.

Is the dualistic existence happening because we label things? Or is everything "One" underneath it all?
So sit quietly, close your eyes and see if you can find the end of your awareness and the beginning. Is the Universe still there?
At the beginning of this I sat and it felt like my awareness was trapped inside my head. After some time I broke through that and there was a more expansive space. After some more looking I could not find a beginning or end to awareness. The Universe was still present or life was still happening without a consciousness border. This seemed to fade away after opening my eyes for some reason.
Are thoughts your identity? Feelings?
I went for a long walk today and looked anytime a thought or feeling came up. When they did I always tried to look "underneath" them without interpreting them. When a sad memory would come up about someone I lost, I thought the thought first, then watched the emotion come. I did not become the emotion although the feeling was intense. Then I asked " who is watching these thoughts and emotions"? I looked under there and for a moment found nothing. It was like a light bulb turned on and off in second. I felt a big surge of energy and then went back watching my thinking.
Any nervousness or anxiety is natural, if it comes stay with it, does it center anywhere in the body in particular?
When I'm doing this work I have tension in my stomach. It feels tight as if my stomach is holding on to something. Also some kind of tension in the crown of my head from intense looking.
You might like the book called. " The Impersonal Life".
Thanks for the recommendation!

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Re: Wondering if Metta777 can help for round 2 seeing?

Postby Metta777 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:40 am

Is the dualistic existence happening because we label things? Or is everything "One" underneath it all?
This is what we are here to explore, I want you to find that answer. So far, we have found that there is no edge to consciousness, if we can't find a location where consciousness stop that must mean that it can't be separated into parts. While typing on your keyboard, looking , where does the awareness of the computer screen begin and end between it and your fingers? Not physically, in awareness where is the separation point between those two things?
I thought the thought first, then watched the emotion come. I did not become the emotion although the feeling was intense.
Who thought the thought if there is no " I " ? Thoughts just arise into awareness, then something in us rises up to meet the thought and we invest energy into it or not. If we identify with the thought, the mind invests the energy into it, then it follows this doesn't feel good, I don't like it. Ex: sadness But when our minds do not grasp it and we just let it flow by without identifying, just observing, like sitting on the porch of a house and watching cars go by with no particular interest, just noticing, it fades.
Labels for people are not really useful, since they have no real relevance. they are good for computers though. :-)

Since there is no past, the past is only a story saved in the wrinkles of our brain, no reality to it, since we can't go and relive it or change it in anyway, any labels we took on are meaningless. So even if there was laziness in the past as a label, it means nothing because the past is dead, so the label wouldn't fit. Living is a process or action constantly changing, so all personality labels are irrelevant. The future is a projection based on past experience, again, no meaning, for two reasons, one you can't live the future now, and since every now moment is new and full of potential any projection based on past experience would be erroneous.

Is there any identity in your thoughts or feelings? Can you find it anywhere? Perhaps there is a holding on to something, our body speaks to us. Warmly, Metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: Wondering if Metta777 can help for round 2 seeing?

Postby Crow » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:09 pm

Greetings Metta.
While typing on your keyboard, looking , where does the awareness of the computer screen begin and end between it and your fingers? Not physically, in awareness where is the separation point between those two things?

There does not seem to be a separation between typing now and the computer screen. It's like they are both in the same field of awareness. This seems so simple, but I've never looked at it like this before. They are two separate things (physical), but the Awareness of typing, hands, movement, the screen, words happening are one. One unified Awareness. Weird.
Is there any identity in your thoughts or feelings? Can you find it anywhere? Perhaps there is a holding on to something, our body speaks to us. Warmly, Metta
So today a thought about my Father who passed away last year arose. The thought was it is the holdiays and he is not here. The thought came from nowhere, a feeling of loss next, then sadness, and then a feeling that this was affecting a personal "me". The awareness is that the thought and emotion came first, and then made a " Me ". Yet when looking closer it seems the thought must've happened, (which " I " ) identified with first because how else would a feeling of loss or sadness affect me if there wasn't an " I " ? There must be a holding on. This ego is afraid of death. The emotions felt today seemed so much stronger. It feels like the more seeing that is being done, the more a separate self fights back. Is this normal or am not ready?
Deep regards Metta. Thank you.

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Re: Wondering if Metta777 can help for round 2 seeing?

Postby Metta777 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:16 am

The thought came from nowhere, a feeling of loss next, then sadness, and then a feeling that this was affecting a personal "me". The awareness is that the thought and emotion came first, and then made a " Me ".
Yes, the thought just arose, then a feeling attached to the thought, this invested the thought with energy, the mind grasped it and made it mine. You see the order in which this occurred, good insight here. No " I " was attached to, a thought was attached to. The thought came out of nowhere, then after awhile it was gone. But does awareness go or does it remain unchanging?

You are watching a movie, it is very exciting, sometimes sad, sometimes joyful, and you are really involved in it. They could be real people. But if you reach out and touch the screen you become aware that the story is not real. But what happens if the characters are there and the screen disappears? You start becoming confused and you think the people, the characters are real.
The past is a story we tell ourselves and sometimes the story is painful or joyful, but the past is gone. We can't relive it or go back and change it.

There is no death. One of the first things we learn in school is that energy does not die, it transforms only. First thing I remember in science. Thought he body is impermanent, we can see this in nature, the energy does not die, it transforms and moves. Like rain to clouds or clouds to ice or ice to mist or ocean. It is sad to lose someone we love a lot, but they are not gone. Because awareness is infinite, it can't be separated can it? The awareness as we just saw with the computer screen etc. is not limited to any one place.

Thoughts are like children blowing bubbles, they rise into the air, they look magical, there are so many of them and then pop, they disappear leaving nothing. But something always remains? what is that which always remains? Merry Christmas, Love, Metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: Wondering if Metta777 can help for round 2 seeing?

Postby Crow » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:04 am

Hello Metta. Thank you for the Christmas greetings. I hope you are well! Time to look.
No " I " was attached to, a thought was attached to. The thought came out of nowhere, then after awhile it was gone. But does awareness go or does it remain unchanging?
Awarness is always there unchanging and silent, but bursting with life.


You are watching a movie, it is very exciting, sometimes sad, sometimes joyful, and you are really involved in it. They could be real people. But if you reach out and touch the screen you become aware that the story is not real. But what happens if the characters are there and the screen disappears? You start becoming confused and you think the people, the characters are real.
I became confused about this analogy. is there another way to explain it?

There is no death. One of the first things we learn in school is that energy does not die, it transforms only. First thing I remember in science. Thought he body is impermanent, we can see this in nature, the energy does not die, it transforms and moves. Like rain to clouds or clouds to ice or ice to mist or ocean. It is sad to lose someone we love a lot, but they are not gone. Because awareness is infinite, it can't be separated can it? The awareness as we just saw with the computer screen etc. is not limited to any one place.
Thank you for this. This was deeply comforting. So we are this Awarness and our bodies move through space as vessels for this Awarness to manifest in one specific way as a person. When the body dies, Timless Awarness, which is us, lives on. It seems then that personalites are created by the stickyness of emotions, thoughts, stories, memories binding together under the false " Thought" of " I. Then the freedom comes from the quiet "imperosonal" Awarness we are underneath all of these thoughts, stories and emotions.
Are individualistic, unique, personalities a defect of improper self thinking, or is Awareness full of variety in it's full, hilarious, nature. I I can't tell what's true here because I fear I am still self.
individuality with Thoughts are like children blowing bubbles, they rise into the air, they look magical, there are so many of them and then pop, they disappear leaving nothing. But something always remains? what is that which always remains? Merry Christmas, Love, Metta
After the bubbles of thought burst there is a deep, unexplainable, Living, still, silence underneath the sensations of seeing, hearing, smelling, touching and thought. Awarness.

Also I read the Impersonal Life. That little book is the heavy weight champion of Truth. It is very, very helpful. I want the truth of " I AM " to really be running the show. To be in that Flow and to KNOW that " I AM " , Awarness, moving, creating, with a plan. Merry Christmas Metta. There is excitment building! Thank You!

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Re: Wondering if Metta777 can help for round 2 seeing?

Postby Metta777 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:36 am

Don't worry about the movie thing, not important.
It seems then that personalites are created by the stickyness of emotions, thoughts, stories, memories binding together under the false " Thought" of " I.
Yes, your personality, who you think you are is a construct. From the time you were small you were taught labels for everything, this is blue, this is red, this is a tree, this is good, this is bad. This is what we believe. The labels and concepts were used to conceive strings of memory, which are just electro-chemical processes in the brain, stored in the wrinkles, etc. So memories are dead, meaning that they may not be relived or reaccessed in real time. Many times memory is not accurate, this is obvious when there is an accident and when the officer questions everyone, they all have a different story even though they saw the same thing. Why is that? Can you tell me?
So really it is a story we tell ourselves, thoughts about ourselves and others arise from this story. So for ex: You are a baby and told repeatedly how stupid you are and that continues through the whole time you live at home. Then you go to college and get a 3.8 average, which says your not stupid. This is cognitive dissonance. What does this imaginary person tell themselves about their success? Speculation here.

So is it fair to say who we think we are is really based on a lot of conditioning and labels?
Thought" of " I. Then the freedom comes from the quiet "impersonal" Awareness we are underneath all of these thoughts, stories and emotions.
This is good. Yes!
"This too shall pass"

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Re: Wondering if Metta777 can help for round 2 seeing?

Postby Crow » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:36 am

So memories are dead, meaning that they may not be relived or reaccessed in real time.
This one got my hackles up for some reason. Perhaps because I hold on to memories as things that are still alive, like the memories of my Father. This is confusing to me. I look at a picture of him. Then from nowhere an image of a time passed and some event comes into consciousness. Emotion follows next. I feel like a memory can be experienced in the present. I don't know about reaccessing them though. Does this mean reevaluating memories. Your statement above really attacks at the heart of the " Me " for some reason. Is there another way to look at memories at a different angle? I feel like I'm missing it.
Many times memory is not accurate, this is obvious when there is an accident and when the officer questions everyone, they all have a different story even though they saw the same thing. Why is that? Can you tell me?
It seems that memory is so subjective. Each person " Labels " the experience differently so there is bound to be differences. Also an experience would go through the filter of "me" and how it affected " Me " which would change the story.
So really it is a story we tell ourselves, thoughts about ourselves and others arise from this story. So for ex: You are a baby and told repeatedly how stupid you are and that continues through the whole time you live at home. Then you go to college and get a 3.8 average, which says your not stupid. This is cognitive dissonance. What does this imaginary person tell themselves about their success? Speculation here.
They tell themselves that they're still stupid because they couldn't get a 4.0. They can't see the truth of who they really are. To feel stupid is more comfortable because it was the label that was taken as the truth. Everything goes through this filter and because of it there is blindness, confusion, frustration, and dissonance. Story of my life.
So is it fair to say who we think we are is really based on a lot of conditioning and labels?
My goodness yes. There seems to be a never ending tapestry of labels and conditioning like wet, paper mache strips that form around nothing and eventually dry and harden and become a head.

For some reason being with family brings me back to the Me-ness of Me. There are old labels and knee jerk reactions. Being around people, even people I love, makes it harder to see the truth.

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Re: Wondering if Metta777 can help for round 2 seeing?

Postby Metta777 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:08 am

Perhaps because I hold on to memories as things that are still alive,
I see your confusion here. Your Father whom you loved very much lived in NOW, until what happened. He still lives in Now, because energy does not disappear, it merely changes form. He was not alive in the past and neither are you now. Do you understand what I am saying here? It is wonderful that you have those memories and cherish them, but they are not living now, they are gone as experiences now.
It seems that memory is so subjective.
Yes, they are very much so, even the same family will remember family members in a different way. Though memories are an important part of your life, they are not you. Not only is your memory subjective , but so is everyone else's. So reality is subjective when looked at in this way.
They tell themselves that they're still stupid because they couldn't get a 4.0.
Yes, until repeated direct experiences tells them, it was a lie. So the filter of SELF is very active or another word for it is ego. so The past is a story we tell ourselves and sometimes this causes pain or sometimes joy. If we have enough Direct Experience the story can change in our heads. I told myself that it is like going in your head to a new neighborhood to live. Uncomfortable at first
maybe, but you get used to it and the house is bigger and nicer. lol
eventually dry and harden and become a head.
Exactly so.

The reason it is harder is that thoughts arise and then there is a lot of emotion that attaches to the thought when it comes up, then energy is invested in the thought. which is what emotion is too. So can you really see an identity in the changing and unstable view of everything around you? As for thoughts, if you think of yourself sitting on a front porch and watching cars go by, some you think, wow, hot car, some are just , who cares and some are junkers. But there doesn't have to be an investment of energy or emotion in every thought, just observe them and let them slide by. Love, Metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: Wondering if Metta777 can help for round 2 seeing?

Postby Crow » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:38 am

Hello Metta. Thanks again.
He was not alive in the past and neither are you now. Do you understand what I am saying here? It is wonderful that you have those memories and cherish them, but they are not living now, they are gone as experiences now.
Yes I understand thank you.
Though memories are an important part of your life, they are not you.


I also understand this as well. This means memories may come and go, but they are only memories and not apart of direct experience or definers of a "Me".

I
If we have enough Direct Experience the story can change in our heads. I told myself that it is like going in your head to a new neighborhood to live. Uncomfortable at first
maybe, but you get used to it and the house is bigger and nicer. lol
I feel like this is what is happening to me. The story is changing. This process seems more gradual than I expected. I'm glad expectation is falling away too. It's time to move into a bigger place!

The reason it is harder is that thoughts arise and then there is a lot of emotion that attaches to the thought when it comes up, then energy is invested in the thought. Which is what emotion is too.
Are you saying that emotions are thoughts too?

This seems to be my downfall at present. I am so sensitive. Someone will say something hurtful, or have a different view from mine and I there is so much sadness or anger. These emotions can only be powerful if they are still protecting an " I " . Is it possible that Awareness or Life are creating these emotions? I cannot find this " I " and yet it is the emotions more than anything that keep me tethered. They are like the fuel that makes thoughts personal.
So can you really see an identity in the changing and unstable view of everything around you?
Honestly I don't know. I want to say no, but I can't for sure. There is a part that is holding on and trying to control the changing and unstable views ( thoughts, memories, perceptions etc.). There is another exhausted part that wants so desperately to SEE and let go and take a ride down the river. Old memories and teachings from my past say this is laziness and I must carve a life and identity out of this world. Thoughts! I hope I'm on the right track Metta. This feels like 2 steps forward 3 steps back at times. Thanks again for your help! Blessings.

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Re: Wondering if Metta777 can help for round 2 seeing?

Postby Metta777 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:12 pm

Hi Crow, I actually typed you an answer and it disappeared, lol. So we will do it again.
Are you saying that emotions are thoughts too?
No, I am saying that it is a process, we become aware of thoughts arising , so many arise. Like a traffic jam sometimes. We sometimes just don't pay attention to them, we might push them away, or our mind sometimes grabs onto them and invests emotional energy into them. So you are programmed to think a certain way. If you see a skunk, your mind tells you maybe, run!!!! He stinks. It is automatic. You see an attractive person there can be multiple responses. But they are not your identity because all of the responses are temporary. Thoughts disappear, emotions disappear into nothingness. But there is something that does not disappear. What is that something?

Sensitive is a good thing,but when we have been programmed to apply certain labels to things, ideas or people again the emotion automatically comes into play. So if someone says to you, "Stupid"!!, if someone in your past has called you stupid and you cared what they thought, this experience with emotion will be triggered. You might believe the label because someone else said it too. Then the emotion of shame or anger comes up to meet the thoughts that come with it, but it is not true as can clearly be seen. If a person does a stupid thing, it is in that moment, it is 100% impossible to be stupid, or anything all the time. Isn't it possible that they may respect and admire you, yet think differently about some things?

So first thing is to know labels are meaningless really, they are only useful to computers and for organizing things. That 's it. In matters of the heart , totally useless.

Yes, ego is trying to hold on, it can be tiring at first. When you feel tiredness or anxiety or fear, can you sit with it quietly and just observe it. Usually it is trying to tell us something. But emotions come up and block seeing. Just see it like someone else is seeing it, if you can and perhaps it will be clarified for you. Love, Metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: Wondering if Metta777 can help for round 2 seeing?

Postby Crow » Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:08 am

Hello Metta. Grateful.
Thoughts disappear, emotions disappear into nothingness. But there is something that does not disappear. What is that something?
If thoughts, labels, perceptions, emotions, this body, are not me and they disappear the only thing left is a quiet awareness of constantly moving world. There feels like there is a knowing there. Then thoughts come up and leave again.
Today I walked to work and everything was just as it was. I couldn't even conjure up a label for say a truck or a person. When I did look at a store that said " Laundromat " I knew what the letters were, but they had no personal weight to them. There was this lightness to it. It was almost like the world was 2 dimensional in it's 3 dimensions. By this I mean it felt like everything was one big unified screen or field of awareness. Consequently I was late for work! For some reason I am confused as to what the brain does now. If all of this awareness and thought comes form Life and is constantly being born and dying in consciousness, then what am I using this brain for? I guess to move my body in space? This is a strange thought that I have been chewing on.
Sensitive is a good thing,but when we have been programmed to apply certain labels to things, ideas or people again the emotion automatically comes into play. So if someone says to you, "Stupid"!!, if someone in your past has called you stupid and you cared what they thought, this experience with emotion will be triggered. You might believe the label because someone else said it too
Yes this is helpful. What I've started to notice is that old labels and stories about myself that I have brought up to this moment are reflected back to me by friends and people in my life. They hold on to those labels more that I do now.
Then the emotion of shame or anger comes up to meet the thoughts that come with it, but it is not true as can clearly be seen. If a person does a stupid thing, it is in that moment, it is 100% impossible to be stupid, or anything all the time. Isn't it possible that they may respect and admire you, yet think differently about some things?
Yes a label is put on me by "myself" of others, then a thought about that label arises and then emotion to follow. All of this builds a phantom of a " me " with an identity. I am an Actor, learning disabled, self deprecating, overly sensitive etc. etc. etc. etc. Could it be that instead of all of that, I am nothing more that I AM?
So first thing is to know labels are meaningless really, they are only useful to computers and for organizing things. That 's it. In matters of the heart , totally useless.
This is helpful.
Yes, ego is trying to hold on, it can be tiring at first. When you feel tiredness or anxiety or fear, can you sit with it quietly and just observe it. Usually it is trying to tell us something. But emotions come up and block seeing. Just see it like someone else is seeing it, if you can and perhaps it will be clarified for you. Love, Metta
Yes thank you I have been trying to be observant in this way. One of the ego fears is how will I work if I become Awake? You have to be a self absorbed, driven, ambitious, clearly defined person to be an actor. These are just perceptions perhaps. There is a fear that I will not be able to function at a high level if I am missing and apart of all.

What now Metta? Should I keep looking? Or should I let more unfold? I have this strange feeling that all will be taken care of. Not sure what to do or think! Ha ha! Hilarious, that's a first and I just don't seem to care, in a good way.

Sorry this is such a long one. Thanks again!


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